Mr. Right versus Mr. Right Now

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Here’s a really good piece by my hero Dorothy Cummings McLean, talking about the potential conflict between young marriage with children and marrying the right person.

thehistoricalhouse.blogspot.com/2016/09/right-man-vs-chances-of-having-kids.html#comment-form

It’s all very good, but I’ll pull out a couple of quotes:

"However, the problem is—and I wonder if this is an insurmountable problem—finding a man with whom you honestly think you could spend the rest of your life (and who honestly wants to spend the rest of his life with you) when you are still on the young side of marriageable age.

“What marriageable age is, is a whole other–but related–question. Although outwardly I must have seemed marriageable at 19, inwardly I just didn’t have the necessary personality until I was 32 or so.”

"Nevertheless, it is difficult not to look backwards [at her own life] and see a stark choice:

"A. Marry young, have children, be bored and embarrassed (or abused and ground down) by husband, become shrew or worse.

“B. Marry truly splendid chap after, apparently, fertility has packed it in.”

(DCM married in her mid-20s, had an abusive marriage, divorced and got an annulment, and then was single until her later 30s. She and her current husband had a whirlwind romance and got married when she was 38. It’s some years later now, and it looks like they will be unable to have children.)
 
Nelka said:
Oh because all men are monsters aren’t they!

:nope:
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I think she’s referring in part to her personal experience, not saying that all men are this way.

I married on the young side by today’s standards, and one thing I have liked is that my husband and I have grown up and matured together. One very important aspect of that, though, was that we both honestly wanted to make the other happy at least most of the time, so even with lots of stumbling our good intentions have helped us a great deal. If we’d been exceptionally naive or not good judges of character, though, or even ended up in the path of some exceptionally charming manipulative person, it could have ended up very badly.

One thing I really like about this is that she can see how it worked out well for her (and how it may work out for many of her readers who are still single and looking.) I can appreciate that even if I’m not so much in the intended audience.
 
pensmama87 said:
I think she’s referring in part to her personal experience, not saying that all men are this way.

I married on the young side by today’s standards, and one thing I have liked is that my husband and I have grown up and matured together. One very important aspect of that, though, was that we both honestly wanted to make the other happy at least most of the time, so even with lots of stumbling our good intentions have helped us a great deal. If we’d been exceptionally naive or not good judges of character, though, or even ended up in the path of some exceptionally charming manipulative person, it could have ended up very badly.

One thing I really like about this is that she can see how it worked out well for her (and how it may work out for many of her readers who are still single and looking.) I can appreciate that even if I’m not so much in the intended audience.
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Yeah.

DCM is talking about her particular life and her options at different stages of her life.

If she had stayed with her first husband that she married in her mid-20s and eventually got an annulment from, she could probably have had children with him, but within the context of a weird, abusive marriage. She is very happy with her second husband–but they met late in life and haven’t been able to have children.

She also talks about how she thinks she herself was not ready for marriage until her early 30s:

“What marriageable age is, is a whole other–but related–question. Although outwardly I must have seemed marriageable at 19, inwardly I just didn’t have the necessary personality until I was 32 or so.”

Some of us are able to marry early and are very pleased with the results (pensmama87, me, and a lot of other people you’ll bump into on CAF). But, what one realizes as one gets older is that a lot of that is pure chance. You meet the right person at the right time and–BAM–true love! Or you don’t meet the right person.

A lot of articles aimed at young Catholics and Evangelicals push young marriage and push it hard, and I think DCM’s piece is a good antidote to a lot of those pieces. The problem is, it is not entirely under our control when we get to meet our future spouse. If one meets him or her at 22, that can be magical! But people who don’t meet the right person are under no obligation to grab the first single person they meet and haul them to the altar. In fact, that is a really bad idea.
 
starshiptrooper said:
Glad to see that someone else notices the frequent casual misandry in these sorts of articles. 👍
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Looking back at your own life, do you think that you would have been well-served at 22 by just taking the first single woman who agreed to marry you?

Or would that have been a mistake?

It’s the same deal for women–a lot of us are not going to meet the right person by 22, and it’s really not a good idea to bully young people of either sex into marrying if they aren’t 100% sure that this is the right person and they are genuinely excited and happy to be getting married to that person.
 
I couldn’t get through the article.

Women have more options. That author needed to mature, and I don’t know why that took her 30+ years. It reflects more poorly on her than on men.
 
Xantippe said:
Looking back at your own life, do you think that you would have been well-served at 22 by just taking the first single woman who agreed to marry you?

Or would that have been a mistake?

It’s the same deal for women–a lot of us are not going to meet the right person by 22, and it’s really not a good idea to bully young people of either sex into marrying if they aren’t 100% sure that this is the right person and they are genuinely excited and happy to be getting married to that person.
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True. But I would say the problem is that some are waiting for the perfect spouse that does not exist, and while they truly love the partner they are with, they have the “grass is greener” mindset. These people are usually the ones living together, even having a kid but find marriage to be a huge commitment

Obviously forcing them to marry isn’t a good idea, but they need to learn what to look for
 
One more thought relating to the general topic of fertility and later marriages:

Fertility may decline as women age, but healthy women are still fertile in their 30’s. Mothers of large Catholic families can attest to that. Six of my children were born after my 30th birthday. My mom married late and had two children.

A woman’s reproductive health and fertility may reflect her other healthy or unhealthy habits. Unhealthy sexual behaviors of a woman may disrupt her future abilty to bear children. Sexual promiscuity can leave scars on both the spirit and the body. For instance, STDs can produce scars and damage a women’s tubes, abortion is linked to future miscarriage as the cervix may be damaged, years of hormonal birth control pills may mess up ovulation, etc. That is in addition to the natural decline of fertility as women age.

I don’t know why the author of that blog couldn’t have children. Maybe if she’d tried to have children earlier, she still wouldn’t have had them. Children are gifts and fertility is a blessing, just as finding a good spouse is a blessing.
 
gardenswithkids said:
I couldn’t get through the article.

Women have more options. That author needed to mature, and I don’t know why that took her 30+ years. It reflects more poorly on her than on men.
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Different people are going to mature at different speeds. There are “late bloomers.”

I think DCM did have a LOT of options. She is a striking redhead and dated a lot. But a lot of options doesn’t necessarily mean better options.

Speaking personally, I’m a fairly plain woman and have always been on the plain side. I’ve only ever “gone out” with four different guys, including my future husband, and yet two of the four were willing to marry me. But look around CAF, and see how many late 20s/early 30s single people there are who would love to get married, but just haven’t been able to find the right person yet. After all, you can want to get married all you want, but if there isn’t anybody who wants to marry you or that you want to marry, it’s not going to happen.
 
gardenswithkids said:
One more thought relating to the general topic of fertility and later marriages:

Fertility may decline as women age, but healthy women are still fertile in their 30’s. Mothers of large Catholic families can attest to that. Six of my children were born after my 30th birthday. My mom married late and had two children.

A woman’s reproductive health and fertility may reflect her other healthy or unhealthy habits. Unhealthy sexual behaviors of a woman may disrupt her future abilty to bear children. Sexual promiscuity can leave scars on both the spirit and the body. For instance, STDs can produce scars and damage a women’s tubes, abortion is linked to future miscarriage as the cervix may be damaged, years of hormonal birth control pills may mess up ovulation, etc. That is in addition to the natural decline of fertility as women age.

I don’t know why the author of that blog couldn’t have children. Maybe if she’d tried to have children earlier, she still wouldn’t have had them. Children are gifts and fertility is a blessing, just as finding a good spouse is a blessing.
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As I recall, DCM says that when she and her husband got married (when she was 38 I believe), she had just ovulated for the last time.
 
I think it is a false dichotomy. There are so many other factors that can affect the situation, I really don’t think the big issue out there is “Mr. Right vs Mr. Right Now”. Like gardenswithkids said, even her own situation sounds like (and the author seems to agree that) she was more of the problem.
 
lifeisbeautiful said:
**I think it is a false dichotomy. ** There are so many other factors that can affect the situation, I really don’t think the big issue out there is “Mr. Right vs Mr. Right Now”. Like gardenswithkids said, even her own situation sounds like (and the author seems to agree that) she was more of the problem.
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DCM is talking about her particular personal history and yes, saying that her own maturity and psychological situation was a large factor (hence her saying that she wasn’t ready to marry until her early 30s). That immaturity probably contributed to her walking into an abusive marriage in her 20s.

But we can’t just mature ourselves instantly or magic up a devout, compatible, practicing Catholic spouse at will (as you can see from CAF), and the price of “settling” for less than that can be very, very high.

In the comments, DCM says, " I was once told I was too picky for wanting a bright man who had a good job he enjoyed and went to Mass on Sundays."

Good heavens!
 
Xantippe said:
As I recall, DCM says that when she and her husband got married (when she was 38 I believe), she had just ovulated for the last time.
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If she ovulated for the last time at age 38, then she experienced menopause at a remarkable early age. Few women go through menopause before age 45 and the average age of menopause is around 51. (That’s according to a quick web search–no medical advice intended.) That may have been her experience, but it does not reflect the reality for most women.

Apparently the author matured very late emotionally while her reproductive parts were simultaneously aging very quickly.
 
Before this thread erupts into a men vs. women flame war let’s all take a deep breath and then think.

It helps a lot if the culture children grow up in valued marriage and family. The extended family is still very much on the scene and there is a sense of community. Children grow up with a shared sense of values making it more likely to find prospective spouses among their age peers. The strong sense of family will have provided a good role model for being a good spouse. For young newlyweds and new parents, the extended family provides a good support system.

This fractured, transient society where narcissism is worshiped and marriage is almost always temporary, provides a toxic environment for good relationships to start much less lead to marriage.

Add to that, poor or no role models for having a good marriage and it makes it challenging.
 
Xantippe said:
Looking back at your own life, do you think that you would have been well-served at 22 by just taking the first single woman who agreed to marry you?

Or would that have been a mistake?
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As of now, I would prefer to play a single game of Russian Roulette using a revolver with 5 chambers. My odds and outcomes would be better. If I lose it is quick and painless. If I stayed married, my reward would be to run the same risks next year, and the year after that, and so on.
It’s the same deal for women–a lot of us are not going to meet the right person by 22, and it’s really not a good idea to bully young people of either sex into marrying if they aren’t 100% sure that this is the right person and they are genuinely excited and happy to be getting married to that person.
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I have absolutely no intention of getting married for at least another 10 years or so. By that time however, I guarantee that I will have better options than a woman who is my age and unable to have children.
 
Sarcelle said:
Before this thread erupts into a men vs. women flame war let’s all take a deep breath and then think.

It helps a lot if the culture children grow up in valued marriage and family. The extended family is still very much on the scene and there is a sense of community. Children grow up with a shared sense of values making it more likely to find prospective spouses among their age peers. The strong sense of family will have provided a good role model for being a good spouse. For young newlyweds and new parents, the extended family provides a good support system.

This fractured, transient society where narcissism is worshiped and marriage is almost always temporary, provides a toxic environment for good relationships to start much less lead to marriage.

Add to that, poor or no role models for having a good marriage and it makes it challenging.
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I agree entirely with this.

I think part of the reason my husband and I were ready is that we both came from stable homes with stable marriages, and almost all of our friends and family were also from stable homes with stable marriages. That’s not to say our home lives were perfect at all, or even that there weren’t some really problematic things going on, but we had a lot more advantages than many people when it came to dating and discerning marriage, even if we didn’t know it at the time.

Having to figure out all that stuff on your own is very difficult.
 
gardenswithkids said:
I couldn’t get through the article.

Women have more options. That author needed to mature, and I don’t know why that took her 30+ years. It reflects more poorly on her than on men.
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Me neither… and I agree it reflects poorly on the author than on men 🤷

I don’t think this article is useful except to tell us about the experience of one woman that took 30+ years to mature.
 
I’m not sure where anyone got “man-hating” out of this piece. The author spoke primarily about herself and didn’t extrapolate her experience. And as she said several times, she’s happily married, presumably, to a man.

That said, she sounds very childish. If getting married is a real priority to you (and who would want to be married to someone who didn’t prioritize it?), then be ready before 32. There’s a lot of time between 19 and 32! No, I don’t think anyone outside of the military should marry between say, 18-22, for practical reasons as well as maturity. But by 25, if that’s something you want, you need to be actively working on making yourself ‘marriagable’ AND putting yourself out there and meeting people.

19 and stupid vs 38 and infertile may have been her choice, but it doesn’t have to be anyone else’s.
 
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