Mr. Right versus Mr. Right Now

[Melissa]

Huh? That doesn’t make sense. It’s pretty rare for a healthy woman to become infertile that early in life. I didn’t get married until I was 30, but I have two children already and I don’t see any sign of my equipment shutting down. I will most likely have at least one more child. I’m not sure what sort of “study” this was, but it seems like a ridiculous thing to say.

Agreed–my first born was born when I was 27. I have four children because my last successful pregnancy was twins (six pregnancies, three successful). The twins were born just days before I turned 35. Fertility wasn’t completely gone until I was 48.

 

[bitterhope]

I can’t really see what point is trying to be made here. Settling for a less than good spouse at any age is a really bad idea. The post linked in the OP was unreadable it was so bad. I’m not even following what the point trying to be made here is. Fertility most certainly is not decreasing after age 23 for most healthy women, and gone at age 38 in the majority of cases. Marrying young and starting a family early definetly does not make a person bitter and hopelessly trapped unless they choose to allow themselves to become that way. Older women are more likely to rush into “settling” in my experience, not younger women. It seems to me the article linked was more about an immature person still blaming others for her mistakes while trying to make it appear as “helpful advice” to others. In the cases of divorce, women most certainly are the initiators in the majority of cases I know of, and rarely is it due to the man leaving unless he’s been asked to leave repeatedly by the woman first. Yes, there are exceptions of course.

 

[Xantippe]

**I can’t really see what point is trying to be made here. Settling for a less than good spouse at any age is a really bad idea. **The post linked in the OP was unreadable it was so bad. I’m not even following what the point trying to be made here is. Fertility most certainly is not decreasing after age 23 for most healthy women, and gone at age 38 in the majority of cases. Marrying young and starting a family early definetly does not make a person bitter and hopelessly trapped unless they choose to allow themselves to become that way. Older women are more likely to rush into “settling” in my experience, not younger women. It seems to me the article linked was more about an immature person still blaming others for her mistakes while trying to make it appear as “helpful advice” to others. In the cases of divorce, women most certainly are the initiators in the majority of cases I know of, and rarely is it due to the man leaving unless he’s been asked to leave repeatedly by the woman first. Yes, there are exceptions of course.

You’d be surprised how controversial that idea is, that settling is a bad idea.

Over the last 20+ years, I’ve read so many pieces (primarily conservative or religious conservative pieces), urging early marriage no matter what and urging young people (especially women) not to have such unrealistic standards. I’m pretty sure that if one collected every one of those articles and blog posts, one would wind up with a fat tome.

It may seem obvious and commonsensical to you that marrying a person one doesn’t really want to marry is a bad idea and very unkind to the other person, but common sense can be sadly lacking in these discussions. Another commonsensical point is that if a person has wildly unrealistic standards for their future spouse, maybe a bit more life experience and maturity is needed before they get married? But no, this immature and unrealistic person needs to get married RIGHT NOW to a person they don’t really like that much.

DCM is providing some much needed pushback to some really harmful and surprisingly common ideas.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

DCM is providing some much needed pushback to some really harmful and surprisingly common ideas.

I guess my issue with her piece is that it’s analogous to someone saying “I’m too selfish to have children”. Yes, it’s commendable to recognize that and not have kids in that situation, but it doesn’t actually address the real problem (selfishness).

Yes, it’s best to put off marriage until you’re ready, and yes it’s best to wait for someone you want to marry. But that doesn’t do anything to speed up the process of getting ready or meeting potential partners. Without any background, “dating a lot” doesn’t necessarily qualify as really looking, especially if you yourself aren’t ready to marry.

That’s why I don’t like this piece. It presents a false dichotomy without so much as acknowledging that there are concrete steps individuals can take to avoid her scenario. I’m not accusing her of doing nothing, I can’t speak to that. I just don’t like what she wrote.

 

[Xantippe]

I guess my issue with her piece is that it’s analogous to someone saying “I’m too selfish to have children”. Yes, it’s commendable to recognize that and not have kids in that situation, but it doesn’t actually address the real problem (selfishness).

Yes, it’s best to put off marriage until you’re ready, and yes it’s best to wait for someone you want to marry. But that doesn’t do anything to speed up the process of getting ready or meeting potential partners. Without any background, “dating a lot” doesn’t necessarily qualify as really looking, especially if you yourself aren’t ready to marry.

That’s why I don’t like this piece. It presents a false dichotomy without so much as acknowledging that there are concrete steps individuals can take to avoid her scenario. I’m not accusing her of doing nothing, I can’t speak to that. I just don’t like what she wrote.

I think the dichotomy is for herself. And who knows if she could have done better? She’s done very well just to have a husband that she loves, even if it took a long time to find him.

She’s written a lot on dating, and it’s generally very sound. For example, giving people a solid chance even if you aren’t that into them at first, but not dragging on dating relationships long-term if there isn’t some progress happening in terms of getting to like them better and finding them more interesting. That’s awfully good advice, and not heard enough. Plus, she’s got a lot of stuff on being a contented single woman.

I guess I don’t expect her to put every single one of her ideas in every single piece. She’s got a book, after all, and several blogs:

goodreads.com/book/show/8612401-the-closet-s-all-mine

seraphicsinglescummings.blogspot.com/

edinburghhousewife.blogspot.co.uk/

I feel like “how do you get mature and realistic” is a whole nother piece or worthy of a book just by itself.

 

[Xantippe]

In the cases of divorce, women most certainly are the initiators in the majority of cases I know of, and rarely is it due to the man leaving unless he’s been asked to leave repeatedly by the woman first. Yes, there are exceptions of course.

Come to think of it, if women are the primary initiators of divorce and it is 100% their fault (they aren’t, but let’s just say they are), it’s an especially bad idea to tell young women that they shouldn’t be so picky and that they should just take the first guy that asks them even if they don’t really like him that much.

If anything, women being the main ones initiating divorce suggests that women ought to be more picky, not less picky.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Come to think of it, if women are the primary initiators of divorce and it is 100% their fault (they aren’t, but let’s just say they are), it’s an especially bad idea to tell young women that they shouldn’t be so picky and that they should just take the first guy that asks them even if they don’t really like him that much.

If anything, women being the main ones initiating divorce suggests that women ought to be more picky, not less picky.

Women initiate divorce more often. Men have higher rates of domestic abuse, adultery, and alcoholism. I’m not too convinced the responsibility for divorce lies any more at the feet of one gender than the other. We just live in selfish, shortsighted, and impulsive times.

 

[bitterhope]

Women initiate divorce more often. Men have higher rates of domestic abuse, adultery, and alcoholism. I’m not too convinced the responsibility for divorce lies any more at the feet of one gender than the other. We just live in selfish, shortsighted, and impulsive times.

I agree. In each and every divorce, both parties share some of the blame.

 

[Xantippe]

I agree. In each and every divorce, both parties share some of the blame.

But not necessarily 50/50.

 

[bitterhope]

But not necessarily 50/50.

Well, it could be the party that initiated the divorce carries the bigger burden because they pulled the plug on all chances of working things out. It could be the party that is abusive. Not all divorces occur because of abuse. In all actuality, no one here or anyone outside of the marriage/heaven can honestly know why any divorce occurs. Usually things are not as they appear or as they are presented to the world. And nearly always it boils down to selfishness and immaturity in both parties that eventually causes somebody to give up on their marriage in hope of finding something (someone) better.

It gets old the way people pit men against women all the time. Neither sex is better than the other in any situation. We are different, but that isn’t the same as better or worse. Does it really matter who causes or initiates breaking up marriages? No matter who did, both share blame and neither worked hard enough to repair things. It’s sad and it’s a tragedy that can be prevented if people married for the right reasons to begin with.

Yes, I realize there are exceptions. Those exceptions are pretty rare though. Thankfully.

 

[bitterhope]

You’d be surprised how controversial that idea is, that settling is a bad idea.

Over the last 20+ years, I’ve read so many pieces (primarily conservative or religious conservative pieces), urging early marriage no matter what and urging young people (especially women) not to have such unrealistic standards. I’m pretty sure that if one collected every one of those articles and blog posts, one would wind up with a fat tome.

It may seem obvious and commonsensical to you that marrying a person one doesn’t really want to marry is a bad idea and very unkind to the other person, but common sense can be sadly lacking in these discussions. Another commonsensical point is that if a person has wildly unrealistic standards for their future spouse, maybe a bit more life experience and maturity is needed before they get married? But no, this immature and unrealistic person needs to get married RIGHT NOW to a person they don’t really like that much.

DCM is providing some much needed pushback to some really harmful and surprisingly common ideas.

I just saw this post.

I don’t know many people in the real world that have ever thought or pushed anyone to marry young. It’s almost always the opposite. People telling their 25 year old “children” that they are too young to marry and should live their life first which to me sounds crazy. How can a 25 year old be that immature now when a generation or two ago that was not the case? What are we doing as a society that keeps people from maturing? The only people I have met in the real world that have married “Mr. Right Now” we’re older (30-35 year old) women who complain of hearing their biological clock ticking. I’ve never met a younger woman do that. They may move in with “Mr. Right Now,” or even have children with him, but they don’t tend to rush into a marriage with him. Even in very conservative churches, most people don’t push marriage on under 25 year olds so if there are countless blogs and such, I’m pretty sure it’s a very small minority and should just be ignored. I think much better and straightforward advice to everyone is to not take anything on the internet seriously and to be more choosy about what you decide to read. Life is short and people shouldn’t waste so much time on reading things that go against reason. Going out into the real world and meeting real people and having real experiences may very well be the cure for the immaturity and selfishness that’s destroying our society.

 

[ThePCWife]

I can’t really see what point is trying to be made here. Settling for a less than good spouse at any age is a really bad idea. The post linked in the OP was unreadable it was so bad. I’m not even following what the point trying to be made here is. Fertility most certainly is not decreasing after age 23 for most healthy women, and gone at age 38 in the majority of cases. Marrying young and starting a family early definetly does not make a person bitter and hopelessly trapped unless they choose to allow themselves to become that way. Older women are more likely to rush into “settling” in my experience, not younger women. It seems to me the article linked was more about an immature person still blaming others for her mistakes while trying to make it appear as “helpful advice” to others. In the cases of divorce, women most certainly are the initiators in the majority of cases I know of, and rarely is it due to the man leaving unless he’s been asked to leave repeatedly by the woman first. Yes, there are exceptions of course.

Nobody said the majority of cases have women entering menopause around 40, just that having menopause at 39 or 40 is within healthy ranges, just the lower end, which is true. The OP found out retroactively that her last ovulation was at 38, which puts her menopause at 39/40 depending on the calendar. The range is 40-55, that is a massive range and women on the low end of it aren’t necessarily of low fertility just because they can’t theoretically have a kid at 54 (which doesn’t even happen anyway)

Young marriage (under 25) has a higher divorce rate. That’s probably not happening in a vacuum. For various reasons discussed at great length in other threads, most people can’t find a spouse before about age 25 and so marry around 25-30 and have however many kids they can manage, which is these days 2-4 with a few having 5-6 or 7+.

 

[Xantippe]

I just saw this post.

I don’t know many people in the real world that have ever thought or pushed anyone to marry young. It’s almost always the opposite. People telling their 25 year old “children” that they are too young to marry and should live their life first which to me sounds crazy. How can a 25 year old be that immature now when a generation or two ago that was not the case? What are we doing as a society that keeps people from maturing? The only people I have met in the real world that have married “Mr. Right Now” we’re older (30-35 year old) women who complain of hearing their biological clock ticking. I’ve never met a younger woman do that. They may move in with “Mr. Right Now,” or even have children with him, but they don’t tend to rush into a marriage with him. Even in very conservative churches, most people don’t push marriage on under 25 year olds so if there are countless blogs and such, I’m pretty sure it’s a very small minority and should just be ignored. I think much better and straightforward advice to everyone is to not take anything on the internet seriously and to be more choosy about what you decide to read. Life is short and people shouldn’t waste so much time on reading things that go against reason. Going out into the real world and meeting real people and having real experiences may very well be the cure for the immaturity and selfishness that’s destroying our society.

1. There’s probably a big distinction between a number of things: conservative/conservative religious media versus conservative religious families versus just mainstream people/mainstream media (and the mainstream is where you hear the “have your fun first” thing). Conservative or religious media tends to push the virtues of early marriage hard (and has for the last 20 odd years at least), whereas conservative religious parents can be either gung ho or cautious. My parents were on the gung ho side–my future husband’s parents were much more cautious.

I know I personally was super bummed out when no nice Christian boyfriend materialized for me in college, because at the time, I was rather painfully aware that my mom had gotten married at 21 in college and I was way behind track for getting married right after college (which is the one true way to do it). That’s why I find DCM’s message of patience refreshing–because early 1990s me really could have used her message. You know how many posters we get on CAF who are 18/19/20/22/24 and who think that they’re going to die alone? Those are the people who need a message of cheerful patience. Young people panic much too early and then have a tendency to grab at happiness, even when the person they’re grabbing at is very unlikely to be able to provide a happy or stable existence long term (or even short term).

1. Come to think of it, “live your life!” addressed to the 25-year-old might actually mean something like, “I don’t like your current girlfriend or boyfriend–please find somebody else!”
2. There’s a small but influential group of “Christian” blogs addressed to men that make the assumption that women over about 22 (including churchgoing women) are promiscuous trash. There are surprisingly many CAF posters (especially single young men) who have fallen under the influence of the “Christian” manosphere–you’ll see one such in pretty much every single CAF dating thread, if not two.

Those people (and a lot of other more mainstream conservative religious blogs and writers) push early marriage for women really hard, with very little consideration for long term consequences of stampeding women into marriage through fear-based arguments.

1. People have a lot of different reasons for pushing early marriage so hard. Here are some I’ve seen:

–a desire to prevent premarital sex/fight pornography/etc.
–a desire to prevent out-of-wedlock births
–a desire to win some sort of demographic battle (for example, to get the US up to a replacement birthrate, to win elections, to fight Islam, save Social security–you name it)

 

[Xantippe]

Even in very conservative churches, most people don’t push marriage on under 25 year olds so if there are countless blogs and such, I’m pretty sure it’s a very small minority and should just be ignored. I think much better and straightforward advice to everyone is to not take anything on the internet seriously and to be more choosy about what you decide to read.** Life is short and people shouldn’t waste so much time on reading things that go against reason.** Going out into the real world and meeting real people and having real experiences may very well be the cure for the immaturity and selfishness that’s destroying our society.

I’ll take another whack at this.

When I was a sweet young thing, there really wasn’t any conservative/conservative religious voice out there in favor of a more patient approach to marriage. I feel like nowadays, there’s a greater diversity of voices and you can find conservative religious writers willing to say so, but back in the days of print, I can’t recall ever seeing a conservative/conservative religious author being anything but gung ho about early marriage. And I have to say, back in the day, I read conservative/conservative religious authors voraciously. This was not at all a fringe thing.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

People in their 20s seem to be regarded as older teenagers rather than younger adults along with unhelpful concepts like ‘real adult’ and ‘adultescense’ which when you also add in an insecure job market is probably why it is taking people longer to grow up and feel ready to get married.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Less marriage means less divorce because there are fewer marginal people getting married than there were 50 years ago. The current pool of people getting married is socioeconomically a stronger pool of people. Contemporary American marriage is very middle class and very focused on childrearing.

Yet the average family has 1.87 children.

1. The stats on child support are easy to look up–the average child support payment is very small–$430 a month in 2010.

census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/children/cb12-109.html

Of course it’s hard to pay, but it’s a small fraction of the real cost of raising children in a middle class home. That wouldn’t even cover childcare for one child in most parts of the country.

That amount is, as The Practical Conservative pointed out, a car payment, not a mortgage payment.

Meanwhile, at my house, something like 75-80% of our very comfortable income goes to kid stuff. That sounds crazy, but it’s not–our three kids are 60% of the population of the household and we spend a lot on school tuition and college savings.

Child support scales with your income. This still overlooks both alimony and the potential loss of half your assets.

Men who fight for custody have a really, really good shot at getting it, but very few do, as custody arrangements tend to be made without a court fight.

"According to DivorcePeers.com, the majority of child custody cases are not decided by the courts.

"In 51 percent of custody cases, both parents agreed — on their own — that mom become the custodial parent.
"In 29 percent of custody cases, the decision was made without any third party involvement.
"In 11 percent of custody cases, the decision for mom to have custody was made during mediation.
"In 5 percent of custody cases, the issue was resolved after a custody evaluation.
"Only 4 percent of custody cases went to trial and of that 4 percent, only 1.5 percent completed custody litigation.
“In other words, 91 percent of child custody after divorce is decided with no interference from the family court system.”

slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/05/men_s_rights_recognized_the_pro_father_evolution_of_divorce_and_paternity.html

“According to one of the most thorough surveys of child custody outcomes, which looked at Wisconsin between 1996 and 2007, the percentage of divorce cases in which the mother got sole custody dropped from 60.4 to 45.7 percent while the percentage of equal shared custody cases, in just that decade, doubled from 15.8 to 30.5. And a recent survey by the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers shows a rapid increase in mothers paying child support.”

Good changes, but for most of the 20th century, Tender Years Doctrine was in force. NOW still opposes bills that would make shared custody the starting pointed for child custody negotiations.

OK–maybe grandma grew up in the good old days. What about my mom? She’s a Boomer and was a young adult in the late 1960s. Is she just staying with my dad because Michael Phelps won’t take her calls?

She is smart enough to realize that dad is the best she could do.

1. Wait a second–in some previous discussions you seemed to be blaming women for the late age of median first marriage. Now you’re saying that they’re waiting because men are making them wait?

Which is it?

No, they want to build their careers and have their fun for the first 10 years or so and then lock down their perfect guy. Sheryl Sandberg covered that in her book. Lean In. Being cuckolded in advance is not something that a future husband will necessarily find attractive as declining marriage rates imply. As a side note, if Feminists are correct and there really no differences between men and women besides reproductive organs, that what purpose exactly does a relationship with a woman qua woman have besides sex and kids? Seriously, what else would I get that I would not get living with my brother?

College educated people have children nearly all within wedlock.

Non-college educated people have a lot of children out of wedlock.

This is more of a socioeconomic thing than a mass exodus from marriage by disenchanted men. Middle class people (even very liberal ones) are generally horrified by the idea of out-of-wedlock childrearing (at least for themselves and their families).

You really ought to read that article I posted.

Why would affirmative consent be more of a problem for a married man than a swinging bachelor? I would think that it’s the other way around.

The problem is that it gives a woman what is effectively a loaded gun that could be fired at any time. I thought you said situations with a power imbalance were bad for relationships.

Abortion and child support do not make marriage less attractive than promiscuous bachelorhood. If anything, it’s the reverse. A promiscuous bachelor is quite likely to become the father of an aborted child, whether he knows it or not–perhaps repeatedly if he has a long enough career. Likewise, children conceived outside of marriage require child support, too.

All things being equal, a married and then divorced father has a much better shot at avoiding abortion and having a relationship with his children than an unmarried father does.

As far as middle class fatherhood is concerned, marriage is really the only game in town.

None of that changes the fact that a woman can unilaterally decide kill the kid. Yet she can opt to keep the kid and collect child support. Her body, her choice, his wallet. Besides, once again your opinion was that power imbalances were bad for relationships.

However, not all Red Pillers want children.

 

[ThePCWife]

Yet the average family has 1.87 children.Child support scales with your income. This still overlooks both alimony and the potential loss of half your assets.Good changes, but for most of the 20th century, Tender Years Doctrine was in force. NOW still opposes bills that would make shared custody the starting pointed for child custody negotiations.She is smart enough to realize that dad is the best she could do.No, they want to build their careers and have their fun for the first 10 years or so and then lock down their perfect guy. Sheryl Sandberg covered that in her book. Lean In. Being cuckolded in advance is not something that a future husband will necessarily find attractive as declining marriage rates imply. As a side note, if Feminists are correct and there really no differences between men and women besides reproductive organs, that what purpose exactly does a relationship with a woman qua woman have besides sex and kids? Seriously, what else would I get that I would not get living with my brother?You really ought to read that article I posted.The problem is that it gives a woman what is effectively a loaded gun that could be fired at any time. I thought you said situations with a power imbalance were bad for relationships.None of that changes the fact that a woman can unilaterally decide kill the kid. Yet she can opt to keep the kid and collect child support. Her body, her choice, his wallet. Besides, once again your opinion was that power imbalances were bad for relationships.

However, not all Red Pillers want children.

Most women with custody don’t receive child support, including married ones. And most of the ones who do, including the ones with support orders from high earners, do not receive 100% of support ordered. Men with custody have higher support amounts assigned and receive more than women with custody.