Msgr. Perl of the Pont. Comm. “Ecclesia Dei”: we are drafting an instruction on the interpretation of Summorum Pontificum [Fr. Z]

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JKirkLVNV said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home
I don’t yell. But I guess you will disguise it in any way and form.

:rolleyes:
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You can cross them if that makes you feel better–but prejudice and bashing --undercover–is still prejudice and bashing.
 
sphilomena said:
Please stop fighting. It takes away from the interesting original post. I say this with total kindness.

:blessyou:
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Thank you!!!
BenFischer said:
Getting back to the original post, I don’t see any reason to think that the Ecclesia Dei commission will change anything. If Bishops aren’t living up to the MP, why would they live up to the new guidelines? If the Ecclesia Dei commission thinks there’s a problem with obedience, how is more paperwork (and more opportunity to disobey) going to fix that?
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You’ve touched on the heart of the matter.

Though it is nowhere to be found in the documents of Vatican II, one direct result of the false “spirit of Vatican II” was a new false collegiality that was at its base an undermining of the authority of the Pope.

Until a pope successfully wrests this authority back from the usurpers (local bishops) the dissent and intransigence will continue.

This will by nature be a work of the Holy Ghost, not of man.

“How many divisions does the pope have?”

None.

The only “power” the Pope has is over the conscience of the local bishop; if the bishop does not abide and obey the authority of St. Peter, modern popes are pretty much powerless to correct them.

Any attempt to remove an entrenched bishop is the west would be met by schism. That bishop’s countrymen would rally around their fellow in opposition to any assertion of Papal Primacy and authority.

The papacy of Pope Benedict XVI then, and his immediate successors, is and will be all about reconsolidating the authority the popes lost to the false spirit of Vatican II.

The effort to restore the sacred character of the liturgy is but the first battle in this war.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home
You can cross them if that makes you feel better–but prejudice and bashing --undercover–is still prejudice and bashing.

You’ve demonstrated no evidence of either.
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You are in this thread are you not—pointing your finger at the SSPX.
 
This is far too important an issue to engage in making this thread a private spat. Please stop!

Back to the thread subject:

Vatican preparing follow-up document on motu proprio
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Vatican, Oct. 12, 2007 (CWNews.com) - The Ecclesia Dei commission is preparing a new document on the application of the motu proprio allowing wider use of the traditional Latin Mass, according to a report on the Italian Petrus web site.
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Msgr. Camille Perl, the secretary of the Ecclesia Dei commission, told Petrus that the office is preparing a document on “the proper interpretation of Summorum Pontificum” The document will provide authoritative guidance on questions that have been raised frequently about the papal directive, such as how many parishioners would constitute a group sufficient to call for the use of the older liturgy.
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The Vatican official acknowledged that the Ecclesia Dei commission is preparing the new document as a response to widespread limitations on the use of the 1962 Roman Missal. Msgr. Perl expressed some impatience with bishops who have set conditions that go beyond the framework of Summorum Pontificum, complaining that a “sense of obedience and respect for authority has been lost.” The Ecclesia Dei commission was created in 1988 to coordinate pastoral programs aimed at traditionalist Catholics. Pope Benedict XVI (bio - news) has given the commission jurisdiction over the implementation of his motu proprio.
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Walking_Home said:
You are in this thread are you not—pointing your finger at the SSPX.
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No, I’m pointing OUT that objectively speaking, what we can say for certain is that the Archbishop and bishops are excommunicated, the priests suspended ad divinis (and thus lacking faculties), and the laity is warned against the grave sin of schism by association. Lawsie, Walking Home, I’m just repeating what the Pope said!
 
universalindult said:
This is far too important an issue to engage in making this thread a private spat. Please stop!

Back to the thread subject:
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The Msgr. is spot-on. Poor bishops, they don’t seem to get that they themselves are mostly to blame for the predicament in which they find themselves and into which they keep digging themselves.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
No, I’m pointing OUT that objectively speaking, what we can say for certain is that the Archbishop and bishops are excommunicated, the priests suspended ad divinis (and thus lacking faculties), and the laity is warned against the grave sin of schism by association. Lawsie, Walking Home, I’m just repeating what the Pope said!
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Of course you are JKirkLVNV—with such enthusiasm–that you can’t just wait to point it out.
 
Walking_Home said:
Of course you are JKirkLVNV—with such enthusiasm–that you can’t just wait to point it out.
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Well, I always was one of the first waving their hand in the air.

Seriously, though, it’s just to keep misinformation out of the pipes. Remember, if you can shut down the threads that spread the misinformation, we won’t have spread the real information.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Well, I always was one of the first waving their hand in the air.

Seriously, though, it’s just to keep misinformation out of the pipes. Remember, if you can shut down the threads that spread the misinformation, we won’t have spread the real information.
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Who can forget–with cries of “excommunication”, “suspended”,
“Ecclesia Dei” being thrown at the mention of the SSPX. Prejudice can be found under different names.
 
Walking_Home said:
Who can forget–with cries of “excommunication”, “suspended”,
“Ecclesia Dei” being thrown at the mention of the SSPX. Prejudice can be found under different names.
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Why such a problem with repeating official Church teaching?😉
 
JKirkLVNV said:
“About that last point: Msgr. Perl is not saying something in contrast to the Cardinal President of the Commission. He is just saying that even if the SSPXers were schismatic (he isn’t saying they are) Catholics would still be able to go to a Mass without incurring the censure.”

How do you read that?!?!? First of all, no one has said that simple attendance incurred excommunication. That was always a slippery slope, not an automatic plunge. Also, recognizing the validity of the Mass offered by them (and by the Orthodox) does not mean that it is alright with the Holy See to attend Mass there or support the SSPX OR the Orthodox (and the SSPX would CERTAINLY have something to say if the Holy See said that it was permitted to the RC faithful to attend upon the Divine Liturgy of the Orthodox). Msgr. Perle hasn’t said that at all!
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Here we go again…
Dear Brother,
IT IS USELESS TO RESIST US…
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Yet resist I will, as I would any schism OR apostacy OR heresy…dear brother.
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Dear Brother,
Why do you read into Msg perls, statement. something that Father Z. does not?? Father Z. is a priest,…are you? And When the excommunications are lifted, and the SSPX is regularized. what will you do then?..JPII has gone to his reward, You should listen to the current Holy Father, and the Priests he has granted the competence, to judge and speak of these matters…
 
mao_now said:
Dear Brother,
Why do you read into Msg perls, statement. something that Father Z. does not?? Father Z. is a priest,…are you? And When the excommunications are lifted, and the SSPX is regularized. what will you do then?..JPII has gone to his reward, You should listen to the current Holy Father, and the Priests he has granted the competence, to judge and speak of these matters…
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Offer prayers of Thanksgiving. And what does it matter that Fr. Z is a priest? Ordination doesn’t make you right or smarter or more sensible. Countless traditionalists have questioned Popes and councils, all I did was question a single priest’s interpretation of one event, given what the Holy See has had to say (officially) about the same event.
 
I often wonder why SSPX members are never here explaining their position in defense of the constant attacks ?

Who knows?
Perhaps they are too busy being pious Catholics.
 
And what does it matter that Fr. Z is a priest? Ordination doesn’t make you right or smarter or more sensible.
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More to OP’s point, would you consider him disobedient? How about YOUR bishop and now? That’s what we should be discussing. We know all about Ecclesia Dei. That was 19 years ago. A new generation has come. Besides, you will never attend a SSPX so let it go.
 
BobP123 said:
More to OP’s point, would you consider him disobedient? How about YOUR bishop and now? That’s what we should be discussing. We know all about Ecclesia Dei. That was 19 years ago. A new generation has come. Besides, you will never attend a SSPX so let it go.
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Mistaken, if he thinks that there’s no problem with the SSPX. What do you mean “How about Your bishop and now?” I’m not sure that’s complete sentence.

Yes, Ecclesia Dei was 19 years ago. How long ago was EENS? How long ago was Leo XIII negation of Anglican orders? Not a very traditionalist point of view you’re taking there, Bob.

I’ll rejoice when the SSPX is reconciled. I’m just not going to say that they are until they are. And we do them a diservice by saying otherwise. They themselves have said that there’s a long way to go,.
 
I_Believe said:
I often wonder why SSPX members are never here explaining their position in defense of the constant attacks ?

Who knows?
Perhaps they are too busy being pious Catholics.
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Please, please, you seem like a reasonable person. I can’t get Bob to point it out or Walking Home, so maybe YOU could. Where has ANYONE bashed the SSPX? Where has anyone attacked them? Please? Anybody?
 
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