Muhammad feared Infidel criticism of Quran

[ChristIsTheWay]

As for you saying im taking th bible literally, well the bible used to be taken literally by the curch as well!.

You really need to read up on your Church history. Yes, in the past some Church leaders interpreted the Bible literally. However, you display a pretty typical ignorance of the history of Bible interpretation by stating, somewhat indirectly, that the whole Church believed that the Bible must be taken literally. You also fail to realize there are different ways of viewing scripture “literally.” Here is an excerpt I wrote on another forum: Within the RCC, we tend to hold an allegorical view of some of the Scriptures. And this is not some modern view that started with Darwin. If memory serves my feeble little mind correctly, the idea of the creation account in Genesis being an allegory or allegory-like goes back quite some time before him, to the very beginnings of Christianity. Though he did not believe that it was an allegory, St. Augustine wrote the Literal Meaning of Genesis that seems to have rejected the modern day “literal view.” This is not surprising, either, because Christians such as Augustine and Origen of Alexandria have long considered alternative interpretations of the Scriptures, and long before science came on the scene. Christians are not alone, either, in this. At least one Jewish scholar in the 1st century also believed that it was incorrect to view Genesis as a six day creation. In fact, I believe, as some scholars do, that the modern “strictly literal” view came about with the rise of Protestantism. Before that, it seems that at least some thinkers were more than willing to accept some kind of allegory or non-literalism in the Bible. But not all, of course; contrary to popular belief, the RCC did not burn everyone who held alternative views. I recommend everyone here read the book Bible and Science by Fr. Stanley Jaki, a noted physicist. Looking to the past, we can see numerous early Church fathers held views on Genesis that are contrary to the modern, literal view. Take, for example, what St. Augustine said in 419 AD, in the City of God, 11:6 - “But simultaneously with time the world was made, if in the world’s creation change and motion were created, as seems evident from the order of the first six or seven days. For in these days the morning and evening are counted, until, on the sixth day, all things which God then made were finished, and on the seventh the rest of God was mysteriously and sublimely signalized. What kind of days these were it is extremely difficult, or perhaps impossible for us to conceive, and how much more to say!” Here, you can see that Augustine makes mention that is difficult or downright impossible to understand what those seven days were. In Miscellanies 6.16, probably written about 208 AD, we see Clement of Alexandria say, “That, then, we may be taught that the world was originated, and not suppose that God made it in time, prophecy adds: “This is the book of the generation: also of the things in them, when they were created in the day that God made heaven and earth.” For the expression “when they were created” intimates an indefinite and dateless production. But the expression “in the day that God made,” that is, in and by which God made “all things,” and “without which not even one thing was made,” points out the activity exerted by the Son. As David says, "This is the day which the Lord hath made; let us be glad and rejoice in it; " that is, in consequence of the knowledge imparted by Him, let us celebrate the divine festival; for the Word that throws light on things hidden, and by whom each created thing came into life and being, is called day. “ Other Church fathers held similar views. Perhaps not quite the present day “non-literal” view, it does show that the Church questioned the idea of six literal 24 hour days is the time that He took to create the universe long before Darwin and science came along.

The rest of what you have said is based on your faulty understanding of Church history and is therefore answered in my above response.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Rodrigo, maybe you can give us ahadith about Muhammad’s attitude to some of his critics…i only remember the Jewish poet whom he murdered.

Dear inJesus,
Most of these sorts of events are recorded in the sira and not the hadiths, although the hadiths do back up the Ka’ab bin al-Ashraf and Abu Rafi stories.

I think you were referring to Ka’ab bin al-Ashraf. This case is a bit contentious as not only was Ka’ab a poet who satirized Muhammad but apparently he was a leader of the Jewish tribe of B. Nadir who was exiled from Medinah and was said to have ridden to Mecca to solicit help from Muhammad’s enemies, the pagans.

The sira of Ibn Ishaq of A. Guillaume, pg. 308 does mention Uqba bin Abu Mu’ayt who ridiculed Muhammad when they were in Mecca, and who fought against the Muslims at Badr. This man was murdered on Muhammad’s orders.

Muhammad did give orders to kill another man, Sallam Ibn Abu’l-Huqayq, for reasons unknown. Ibn Ishaq pp. 482-483.

Another man who ridiculed Muhammad was al-Huwayrith - and he also got the chop. Ibn Ishaq pg. 551; Al-Tabari, pp. 179-181

Yet another man who was murdered on Muhammad’s orders was Abu-Rafi. This is recorded in various sahih Bukhari hadiths.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 264:

Narrated Al-Bara bin Azib:

Allah’s Apostle sent a group of Ansari men to kill Abu-Rafi (aka Abul Huqaiq, a chief of the B. Nadir). One of them set out and entered their (i.e. the enemies) fort. That man said, “I hid myself in a stable for their animals. They closed the fort gate. Later they lost a donkey of theirs, so they went out in its search. I, too, went out along with them, pretending to look for it. They found the donkey and entered their fort. And I, too, entered along with them. They closed the gate of the fort at night, and kept its keys in a small window where I could see them. When those people slept, I took the keys and opened the gate of the fort and came upon Abu Rafi and said, 'O Abu Rafi. When he replied me, I proceeded towards the voice and hit him. He shouted and I came out to come back, pretending to be a helper. I said, 'O Abu Rafi, changing the tone of my voice. He asked me, ‘What do you want; woe to your mother?’ I asked him, ‘What has happened to you?’ He said, ‘I don’t know who came to me and hit me.’ Then I drove my sword into his belly and pushed it forcibly till it touched the bone. Then I came out, filled with puzzlement and went towards a ladder of theirs in order to get down but I fell down and sprained my foot. I came to my companions and said, ‘I will not leave till I hear the wailing of the women.’ So, I did not leave till I heard the women bewailing Abu Rafi, the merchant pf Hijaz. Then I got up, feeling no ailment, (and we proceeded) till we came upon the Prophet and informed him.”

Muhammad did order the murder of a poetress, Asma bint Marwan, and she was apparently killed in her sleep with a baby suckling her breast. This is recorded in Ibn Ishaq pg 676 - although some Muslim apologists claim the isnad (chain of narrators) is missing.

Because Muhammad ordered the murder of al-Harith, a blind old man named Abu Afak wrote a poet that eulogized the murdered man. Ibn Ishaq pg. 675. So guess what? Muhammad ordered old Abu Afak killed as well. Some Muslim apologists claim this is a fabrication because according to some hadiths Muhammad forbad killing old men - however he had no difficulty killing all adult Qurayza aged or otherwise.

Some of these people murdered were alleged to have been conspiring against Muhammad. But it is clear it was dangerous to be on the wrong side of that man.

 

[Loginus]

Loginus, the core teaching of the bible is to love thy neighbor as thyself.

Certainly if a person professes to be a christian, you will NOT get any punches on your face.

On the contrary, the core teaching of the q’uran is to kill you, a non-muslim.

I have a problem with people who fault others because of their behavior and not because of their teachings. We ARE on a theological debate, not on the actions of your forefathers.

We are saying “Even if all muslims were good, Islam remains evil. Yet, even if all christians were bad, Christianity remains good.”.

If everyone were like you, there would be no justice in this world. Reason is simple, the convicted mastermind of a series of murders standing in a court could easily turn around and point at the judge for lusting after his neighbor’s wife.

Is this justice? No, it is a perversion of Justice. And the foremost of such acts is the Demon.

All of us have faults, but it doesn’t mean you can go around pointing fingers at their faults when they point out yours. Doing so amounts to denying the correction of your own faults and promoting the prevalence of sin. A wise man learns from his mistakes.

Proverbs 9:

8 Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you;
rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

9 Instruct a wise man and he will be wiser still;
teach a righteous man and he will add to his learning.

10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

11 For through me your days will be many,
and years will be added to your life.

12 If you are wise, your wisdom will reward you;
if you are a mocker, you alone will suffer."

O by no means am I a Muslim apologist. Only way people consider Islam to be a religion of peace is by twisting some words and ignoring some facts. Im here to make sure Chrisyians dont sudden think they are holy, to remind you that you too have a spec in your eye

Ah yes, Rodrigo, I was wondering if you could recommend a version of the writings of Ibn Ishaq for me and a place where I can find it. Been looking for his work but I’ve had some difficulty finding it in conventional bookstores

 

[Darrel]

It also constricts Christians As I said earlier, the church nowadays has been de-fanged. Its why we can say w/e we want in the west. Christians can only grumble in anger

Over 250 plus post in less than a month. All seemingly geared towards slapping around all religions in a Catholic forum. Is this a school project for you or something?

The Church rejects the idea of having fangs all on it’s own. To assume that Christians grumble in anger over the fact that people can say whatever they want in the west is nonsense. Christians are used to being spoken out against.

I didn’t join the Catholic Church to gain respect from every little self centered secular atheist out there who think they have some answer. You need to remember what Jesus said. If they hate you, remember…they hated me first. It comes with the territory.

-D

 

[Loginus]

Over 250 plus post in less than a month. All seemingly geared towards slapping around all religions in a Catholic forum. Is this a school project for you or something?

The Church rejects the idea of having fangs all on it’s own. To assume that Christians grumble in anger over the fact that people can say whatever they want in the west is nonsense. Christians are used to being spoken out against.

I didn’t join the Catholic Church to gain respect from every little self centered secular atheist out there who think they have some answer. You need to remember what Jesus said. If they hate you, remember…they hated me first. It comes with the territory.

-D

yaa…I think Im addicted to these forums. I came here cause I enjoyed the readings on the home pg and thought they were well thought out and gleed at the possibility of properly understanding Christianity. The other forums me thinks are full of bright ppl but for some reason this seems to be full of who enjoy mocking others.
Just about any religion that isnt Christianity ( and in some cases catholism) is treated with inane ramblings about how its the devil’s work and Christianity is superior. I am no atheist, I hold no grudge with Christianity itself. I merely act as a mirror to reflect back its own views on these forums.
I have great respect for the teachings of Jesus, its just sad it seems the majority of the ppl on these forums dont share that

 

[Angelos]

Mohammed’s fear of polemicists was so advanced that he eventually had to insert into the Quran a specific verse condemning those criticizing his so-called revelation from Allah:

003: 007. He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are **clear revelations **- they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

Mohammed definitely knew his book would face critiques! In order to prevent his followers from questioning the divine commandments and obeying them without the least objection, he narrates the story between Moses and a wise man in the 18th chapter:

018: 65-68. Then found they one of Our slaves, unto whom We had given mercy from Us, and had taught him knowledge from Our presence.Moses said unto him: May I follow thee, to the end that thou mayst teach me right conduct of that which thou hast been taught ? He said: Lo! thou canst not bear with me. How canst thou bear with that whereof thou canst not compass any knowledge ? He said: Allah willing, thou shalt find me patient and I shall not in aught gainsay thee.

018: 74. So they twain journeyed on till, when they met a lad, he slew him. (Moses) said: What! Hast thou slain an innocent soul who hath slain no man ? Verily thou hast done a horrid thing. He said: Did I not tell thee that thou couldst not bear with me ? (Moses) said: If I ask thee after this concerning aught, keep not company with me. Thou hast received an excuse from me.

018: 77. So they twain journeyed on till, when they came unto the folk of a certain township, they asked its folk for food, but they refused to make them guests. And they found therein a wall upon the point of falling into ruin, and he repaired it. (Moses) said: If thou hadst wished, thou couldst have taken payment for it. He said: This is the parting between thee and me! I will announce unto thee the interpretation of that thou couldst not bear with patience.

According to the Quran, even Moses failed to be that wise figure’s friend for longer time because He asked too many questions and criticized the incidents taking place throughout the journey.

Peace to all,
Angelos

 

[inJESUS]

Muhammad often used this technique Angelos. To avoid a scandal for lusting for his adopted son’s wife, he claimed that Allah ordained it by taking the trouble to send a “special revelation” so that his followers won’t question his morality

 

[cestusdei]

Log, we might get mad, but we won’t bury you to your waist and stone you to death.

 

[R_not]

Ya…but thats true when you insult anyone’s religion.
Ever try telling a Christian his religion is BS? Man do they get mad…

‘mad’ vs killing is quite a big difference.

 

[R_not]

If you all go to the thread called, 'Why should I believe the Qur’an?'‏, the Bible blows away the koran.

mohammed had anyone killed who questions the koran, islam or himself. That is still practiced today - it is death to anyone who questions islam, their prophet or the koran. The only saving grace of discussing it today is the anonymous ids of the internet.

I wonder if anyone else wonders why there are so many muslims on these boards trying to push their stuff? Me thinks they are trying to convert us, because that along with other forms of jihad are a muslim’s primary duty. It is called da’wa.