Muhammad May Have Suffered From OCD, Other Mental Disorders??

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FaithofAbraham said:
inJESUS;3169708:
By some, not as much in the USA where there are more Quran only. A lot like Christianity was first considered a cult by Jews. That it was once deemed a cult, and still is by Jews – just a much bigger one – does it have any bearing on the validity of Christianity?
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it is not a correct analogy am afraid. Here we are talking about Jesus, becuse of whom some Jews considered Christianity a cult.

But in this case we are talking about mainstream Islam for 1600 years using tradition and Quran, and later came Quranite-only, who challenged this traditional heritage, and hence is considered a cult…

if anyone is to interpret scriptures according to his whims, with no interpretation through the lenses of the earliest followers as quoted in tradition, then no wonder cults will pop up every day, since it is very easy to manipulate words, but very hard to manipulate entire belief system.
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FaithofAbraham said:
By some, not as much in the USA where there are more Quran only.
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What they are asking is whether true Islamic belief considers “Quran only” to be a heresy? Or is it completely up to the person? It’s irrelevant how many Muslims in the US or elsewhere happen to practice it.

The rest of your post below is a red herring and completely off-topic.
A lot like Christianity was first considered a cult by Jews. That it was once deemed a cult, and still is by Jews – just a much bigger one – does it have any bearing on the validity of Christianity?
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inJESUS said:
it is not a correct analogy am afraid. Here we are talking about Jesus, becuse of whom some Jews considered Christianity a cult.

But in this case we are talking about mainstream Islam for 1600 years using tradition and Quran, and later came Quranite-only, who challenged this traditional heritage, and hence is considered a cult…

if anyone is to interpret scriptures according to his whims, with no interpretation through the lenses of the earliest followers as quoted in tradition, then no wonder cults will pop up every day, since it is very easy to manipulate words, but very hard to manipulate entire belief system.
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Yeah like I said this was a red herring, and tactics like this (I’m sure you know) are commonly used by Muslims who are trying to derail the topic. Best to call them out on it immediately and not pay it any further mention… otherwise they will continue to focus only on the diversion.
 
faithofabraham is not the common Muslim you encounter on these forums…he does not have corruption mantras, to begin with. He relies not on conspiracy theories held by most Muslims or “Jew’s fault” mantra, but rather he relies on his personal interpretations not share by most Muslims because he does not believe in tradition or hadith. So here you are not discussing with a Muslim ( + hadith and tradation and interpretations) but rather with a Muslim who has his own views.
 
exoflare said:
What they are asking is whether true Islamic belief considers “Quran only” to be a heresy? Or is it completely up to the person? It’s irrelevant how many Muslims in the US or elsewhere happen to practice it.

The rest of your post below is a red herring and completely off-topic.
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Well Islam is not a united front, all the sects have different beliefs and competing imams and things just like in Christianity. So anything can be heresy depending on who you ask and what sect they belong to. Some believe in literally cutting off hands for theft, other believe that you just cut off their means to steal. There is no such thing as true Islamic belief, anymore than there is true Christian belief. That’s why I just stay out of all that mess.
 
inJESUS said:
FaithofAbraham;3169757:
it is not a correct analogy am afraid. Here we are talking about Jesus, becuse of whom some Jews considered Christianity a cult.

But in this case we are talking about mainstream Islam for 1600 years using tradition and Quran, and later came Quranite-only, who challenged this traditional heritage, and hence is considered a cult…

if anyone is to interpret scriptures according to his whims, with no interpretation through the lenses of the earliest followers as quoted in tradition, then no wonder cults will pop up every day, since it is very easy to manipulate words, but very hard to manipulate entire belief system.
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Don’t mistake that I don’t consider all sources as I see them, I do. I read the Talmud and writings of the Church and Hadith. I just don’t put myself under their authority so that I can only read one certain thing or believe one certain way. To follow someone else’s doctrine or tradition if I disagree with even one little thing about it is unacceptable. As I’ve seen all sects of all religions are corrupt, so there is no need for me to commit myself to any of them.
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FaithofAbraham,

One problem I think you run into with the “Quran only” view is that the methods of prayer and ritual are only found in the hadiths. I’m not sure about this but do you know what I am talking about?
 
exoflare said:
FaithofAbraham,

One problem I think you run into with the “Quran only” view is that the methods of prayer and ritual are only found in the hadiths. I’m not sure about this but do you know what I am talking about?
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Yeah, salat. Even all the sects argue about how to do it. But not being in the Quran I don’t believe God ever commanded that either.

Matthew 6:7-8 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
Yeah, salat. Even all the sects argue about how to do it. But not being in the Quran I don’t believe God ever commanded that either.
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Do you personally believe that people have the choice of how to pray, and not necessarily even facing Mecca, five exact times each day and all that? From what I understand this would be an extremely minority viewpoint among Muslims.
Matthew 6:7-8 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
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Well, I agree with you. But I don’t expect most Muslims would look at that. 😉
 
exoflare said:
Do you personally believe that people have the choice of how to pray, and not necessarily even facing Mecca, five exact times each day and all that? From what I understand this would be an extremely minority viewpoint among Muslims.

Well, I agree with you. But I don’t expect most Muslims would look at that. 😉
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Praying how Jesus taught, trying just to pray for God’s will and forgiveness and things like that. I pray sometimes dozens of times a day. Facing Mecca is symbolic of turning your heart to God and acknowledging Jesus as Messiah since he is the one who takes your prayers to God as High Priest to make atonement for you, and elsewhere I explained the connection between the Kaaba and New Jerusalem of Jesus and the New Covenant. I think a lot of Muslims forget that Mohammed was a Prophet, not so much a lawgiver, and a lot of what he taught were prophecies and symbolic meanings.
 
FaithofAbraham,

You have some interesting takes on Muslim beliefs. I’m curious, are the other Muslims you know and talk with every day usually receptive to the interpretation of Islam you’ve stated here?
 
exoflare said:
FaithofAbraham,

You have some interesting takes on Muslim beliefs. I’m curious, are the other Muslims you know and talk with every day usually receptive to the interpretation of Islam you’ve stated here?
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More and more I find those who agree especially on ritual prayer and Hadith, but others tell me I should be killed as a heretic. There’s always been the view that Muslims should replace Jews as the Chosen People, thus fables replacing Isaac with Ishmael, and a lot of laws and rituals were added on to Islam over time to push that notion. So I’ve found Muslims that already agree but not really swayed any that don’t.
 
Booklover said:
Your quote reminded of a satire written by an ex-Muslim about debating with infidels:

8… If he shows up with the hadiths and siras in hand and quotes the context of the violent ayas by referring to hadiths of prophet’s rapes, robberies , assassinations and genocides then insist that "all hadiths and siras are heresay and are false, and only truth is in quran.

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Vickie
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FOA I want to apologize for making this statement. I realize now that you’re not the typical Muslim who when confronted with an uncomfortable hadith, claims it’s false and to only believe the Quran.

I hope you haven’t put me on your “iggie” (ignore) list because of it.😃 I mention this because you haven’t replied to anything I’ve said.

Vickie
 
Booklover said:
FOA I want to apologize for making this statement. I realize now that you’re not the typical Muslim who when confronted with an uncomfortable hadith, claims it’s false and to only believe the Quran.

I hope you haven’t put me on your “iggie” (ignore) list because of it.😃 I mention this because you haven’t replied to anything I’ve said.

Vickie
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No that’s fine, I usually reply in forums unless it gets too heated then I stop like with the Santa issue, I don’t usually use ignore.

I think most Muslims pick and choose from Hadith to support their points, I don’t use them at all for that. Like I said before to me they are like Christian apocrypha, some of it seems ok, some just wild. I always thought Shepherd of Hermas and Enoch might have something to them. But there’s no point in dragging them into a Christian discussion to prove a point if they are going to be rejected as valid Christian sources. Same with Hadith, depending on which Muslim you talk to.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
No that’s fine, I usually reply in forums unless it gets too heated then I stop like with the Santa issue, I don’t usually use ignore.

I think most Muslims pick and choose from Hadith to support their points, I don’t use them at all for that. Like I said before to me they are like Christian apocrypha, some of it seems ok, some just wild. I always thought Shepherd of Hermas and Enoch might have something to them. But there’s no point in dragging them into a Christian discussion to prove a point if they are going to be rejected as valid Christian sources.
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Thanks!

Vickie 🙂
 
FaithofAbraham said:
More and more I find those who agree especially on ritual prayer and Hadith, but others tell me I should be killed as a heretic. There’s always been the view that Muslims should replace Jews as the Chosen People, thus fables replacing Isaac with Ishmael, and a lot of laws and rituals were added on to Islam over time to push that notion. So I’ve found Muslims that already agree but not really swayed any that don’t.
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Do the Muslims that agree with you tend to be very open about voicing their beliefs? …from your experience, at least.

I have had Muslim friends, for example that will tell me in private that they don’t really care about adhering to certain rules or teachings but then around family or Muslim peers they will affirm the same teachings when the subject is brought up. I got the feeling that maybe they were just afraid of admonishment by others in their social circle so they were trying to play it safe.
 
exoflare said:
Do the Muslims that agree with you tend to be very open about voicing their beliefs? …from your experience, at least.

I have had Muslim friends, for example that will tell me in private that they don’t really care about adhering to certain rules or teachings but then around family or Muslim peers they will affirm the same teachings when the subject is brought up. I got the feeling that maybe they were just afraid of admonishment by others in their social circle so they were trying to play it safe.
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They are more open online but are beaten down easily by the Hadith lovers. The reality is always there that a Muslim will hunt you down and kill you for heresy, I’ve been threatened a lot. But I can’t live my life not speaking my mind, that’s just living a lie and maybe worse than death.
 
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