Muhammad May Have Suffered From OCD, Other Mental Disorders??

[TheBigQ]

I read somewhere recently that Muhammad, prophet of Islam, may have , by today’s psychological standards at least, may not have been , I should say, “all there” . So to speak.

Some examples given were things like the “wudu” (sp?) ritualized washing. That’s just one example. Here, Muslims, even today, follow or try their best to follow to a T exactly what Muhammad is said to have done when he washed himself before prayer. I looked it up and it is as follows: 3 washes of the right arm, up to the forearms, 3 washes of the left arm up to the forearm, splash water on your face , swish some around in your mouth (3 times) and spit, inhale some into your nostrils (3 times each) , rub your hand over your hair (3 times), and 3 washes of each foot and ankle up to the calf starting with the right as always. Then come into contact with nothing “unclean”, like even if a dog comes near you, or you accidentally pass gas (sorry I know that sounds gross , but, it’s what they say) or anything like that, you are then technically “ritually unclean” and have to re-do the “wudu” prior to making a “proper” prayer which will be “acceptable” to Allah / God . The prayer itself, the “salaat”, is rather overly “repetitive” as well. 3 times for each part, the standing , kneeling, bowing, repeating formulas, etc etc. All they’d really have to do is add, touch your doorknob 3 times , or the prayer will be unacceptable to God, or knock on wood in 3 sets of 3 times each, or it’s unacceptable.

As some other poster I read on here said the other day, if you look in the Koran, there’s really nothing that prescribes that this was the way “God told him” , if you will, how to pray. This was just how he prayed. And his followers, followed him. To a T. Believing he was literally in touch with God or an angel at least on a daily basis. But then why didn’t that angel relate those exact things about the “wudu” and the prayer , etc, TO him in any of the revelations that make up the Koran ?? And that’s sort of similar to the point some other poster was making in the post that I referred to.

Following the prayer, the best “recommended” formula to say, is , the words, “SubhanaAllah” (33 times), " Alhamdulilah" (33 times), and “AllahuAkbar” (33 times) and then say this particular prayer or formula to make it an even 100. Again, that smacks of OCD’ish behavior to me. And then there’s the ritualized shaving. Do you know that Muslim, men and women, if the wish to be truly devout and truly in accord with the “sunnah” (example) of the prophet, are to shave their underarms and entire pubic region(s) not less frequently than every 40 days ? This is for the sake of “cleanliness”. They also have to , or are supposed to, per Muh.'s “sunnah” again, clean themselves following answering the call of nature with their left hand only. And only enter a bathroom with the left foot first. And only enter a mosque with the right foot first. Truly, it’s enough to make one daft, if one tries to truly comply with all of it, by the time one’s in one’s 30’s or so !! You can see why some of these devout Wahhabist / Salafist-type young men are so uptight. Never a sip of booze allowed, no contact with women, nor even a *look * at them, and then all of this on their backs to boot ! What kind of a life is that?? And your whole day is wrapped around this constant stopping what you’re doing and following these ritualized washings and prayers, five to six or even seven times a day, every single day, for the rest of your life.

I can’t understand why Christendom is losing , has lost, so many young people to this kind of a religion / lifestyle.

 

[asteroid]

I am in no way saying I believe the teachings of Muhammad but:

a) ritualised washing, especially as cleansing before prayer, is common in many cultures

b) many people using these forums, including myself, have or have had mental health problems. We are not condemned for it.

c) many Catholic saints could be (and have been) portrayed in similar ways as not being “all there”.

d) Islam isn’t the only religion with repetitive prayers. Catholics have the rosary and divine mercy chaplet which contain the same prayer 50 times. The Orthodox church has the Jesus prayer (popular in other churches too). In the Way of a Pilgrim, the Pilgrim repeats it thousands of times a day. Those who worship in heaven are said in scripture to repeat the same prayer over and over (in the mass we only pray it once!).

e) as far as ritualised prayer at prescribed times goes, does anyone pray the Liturgy of the Hours which could also be portrayed as ritualised?

Having said all that, personally I don’t think I’d cope well with all the little rules of Islam. Then again I never thought I’d cope with all the “little rules” of Catholicism either. I used to look down on the little rituals - sign of the cross, genuflecting, having to sit/stand/kneel, etc, the “static” liturgy (as I thought). But maybe there are good reasons for the Islamic rules as well as good reasons for the Catholic practices. I don’t know. But having to think about my feet when desperate and rushing for the loo seems a bit much.

Of course, I’m not about to convert to Islam and find out!

Maybe Mohammed was a little on the obsessive side, maybe not. But if he was, he’s probably in very good company.

 

[TheBigQ]

asteroid, all that is true, the points you brought up. But IMO Islam puts just WAY WAY more demands and restrictions upon the lives of anyone who wishes to follow it as it is meant to be followed (really there is not such a thing as “fundamentalism” in Islam; there’s been no “reformation”, no “age of enlightenment”, as there was in the Christian world for example). Therefore, technically, any Muslim who desires to really be a true devout Muslim HAS to believe, literally, “fundamentally”, in all of the dogma,etc. In Christianity, in Catholicism, although we are supposed to believe in certain ways and follow the edicts of the Pope in our lives, et, it doesn’t mean that anyone is going to declare us “unCatholic”, or “excommunicate” us, or possibly even do physical harm to us if we are not seen by them to be “Catholic enough”. The Shi’as do it whenever they get the chance, witness Iran. And that’s definitely how it is in the strict Sunni countries, particularly the Gulf Arab countries. Though, I believe, Muh.himself advised Muslims *against * doing what the Arabs call “takfir” , that is, declaring someone else (who claims to be a Muslim) to be a “kaafir”, or “unbeliever”, so many of the devout (esp.the Wahabist / Salafist-types , or the devout
Shi’ites in their case) will do just that. And the most radical of them may even have no problem “takfiring” you ( “You’re tak-fired!” ) and then taking it to the *next * step, which is that anyone who is not a “true Muslim” is therefore an apostate from Islam and that any apostate can and should be killed. It might sound like I’m exaggerating and I’m not trying to Muslim-bash here, but it’s just the truth.

As you said in your point a. ritualised washing, especially as cleansing before prayer, is common in many cultures. True. It was and is common still amongst the Orthodox and particularly the “ultraOrthodox” Jews. It was common amongst the Jews in Jesus’s time. I think part of Jesus’s message , if I’m not mistaken , was that such things are essentially unnecessary, perhaps even unadvisable, in order to gain a real communion with God. The Pharisees hated when he made comments that made it sound like their tedious laws and rituals ( again, kind of like the Hasidim today for instance) were essentially unnecessary. Part of his message is that it isn’t the man who is excessively pious and tedious about observation(s) of some Law (or “laws”) , who observes them but rather by rote and repetition as opposed to true feeling, and then feels himself to be “holier than Thou”, who is able to get into the closest spiritual communion with God. It is in fact the sinner, or the one who returns to the fold after being gone. Look at the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector both praying in the Temple , for instance, or of course the ever-powerful parable of the Prodigal Son. That is what I think Jesus would make of much of the devout Islamic’s ritual(s), prayers at appointed times, etc. That they’re not entirely all that much UNlike that of the Pharisees of His own day. Devotion to Christ cancels out the need for such things, plain and simple. In my opinion at least.

b) many people using these forums, including myself, have or have had mental health problems. We are not condemned for it.

For the record, I"m not condeming you, anyone else on this forum, OR Muh. even, for the fact that they have, or have had, “mental health problems”. I have as well. My heart goes out to such people, in fact I say novenas to St.Dymphna regularly for that purpose for myself and some people in my own family. My main point was as I stated in the paragraph above. About all of the tedious rite and ritual, and Law observance , etc., being excessive, inherently unnecessary, and possibly “overly pious” in some ways, leading the follower to spend so much time pondering trivialities, like whether or not he can flip a light switch on the Sabbath, or whether his food is perfectly “kosher” or “halal”, or what hand he cleans himself with (in this day and age of anti-bacterial soaps where none of that really matters anymore anyway!!), when he could instead be meditating, and / or praying, and coming genuinely closer to God. Peace…

 

[amuslim]

Hi,

I came across this post while searching the web. I feel obliged to reply.

1. Wudu (Ablution) is not a sign of a disorder. As Muslims we are obligated to wash in a particular manner before prayer. This takes less than 5 minutes or even less. Islam places a lot of emphasis on purity, both physical and spiritual. A good example to illustrate this point would be a person who has a shower everyday. Would it be fair to say a person was ‘not all there’ if he had a shower every morning? The person obviously wants to be clean, and isn’t it befitting that someone who wants to worship God should be clean?
2. To say the prayer (salat) is repetitive is to simplify the matter. Muslims don’t kneel and bow 10 times or so a day like robots. In prayer you recite many verses of the Quraan, which include verses about the meaning of life and the purpose of creation, the favours God has given people, and even the stories of prophets of God like Jesus the son of Mary; his childhood, prophethood and message.
3. The method of Wudu is mentioned in the Quraan, as it states in Chapter 5 verse 6:

“O you who believe! When you intend to offer As-Salat (the prayer), wash your faces and your hands (forearms) up to the elbows, rub (by passing wet hands over) your heads, and (wash) your feet up to ankles. If you are in a state of Janaba (i.e. had a sexual discharge), purify yourself (bathe your whole body). But if you are ill or on a journey or any of you comes from answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (i.e. sexual intercourse) and you find no water, then perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands. Allah does not want to place you in difficulty, but He wants to purify you, and to complete His Favour on you that you may be thankful.”

1. We as Muslims believe that the Quran is the word of God, and a conformation of the scriptures that came before it. We believe Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the prophet of God just as Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses and Aaron were all blessed prophets of God preaching the belief in one God and the rejection of worshiping man, stone or anything else. We are told to follow Muhammad (Peace be upon him) in the Quraan, and as such, we accept his teachings as ‘part’ of Islam.
2. I would ask you to rely on trustworthy sources of information on Islam and read about this Beautiful way of life from authentic sources. When you want to know about science, do you read a text book on it or do you rely on a forum posting…

And peace be upon those who follow the true guidance.

 

[inJESUS]

the Quran is not enough on these matters which are recorded in the tradition of Muhammad, the second authoritative books used by Muslims.

No he did not suffer mental problems because of his rituals…some believe he had mental problems based on :

Once the Prophet was bewitched so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 53, Number 400)

Narrated 'Aisha:

Magic was worked on Allah’s Apostle so that he used to think that he had sexual relations with his wives while he actually had not (Sufyan said: That is the hardest kind of magic as it has such an effect)… (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 71, Number 660)

yet he said :

Narrated Saud:

The Prophet said, “If somebody takes some 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night.” (Another narrator said seven dates). (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 71, Number 663)

The “Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir”, (Book of the Major Classes), by Ibn Sa’d, translated by S. Moinal Haq, [4], page 225 has Muhammad saying “O Khadija, I see light and hear sounds and I fear I am mad”.

in addition to his suicidal attempts, ecc.

 

[amuslim]

Simple cutting and pasting from Islamic hate websites isn’t really a way of debating. It would be on par with me saying that the Bible claims that God was tempted by the devil (Luke 4:2) (Im not quite sure if you believe Jesus was God or not).

Firstly, you have no understanding of the Islamic concept of Sihr (magic). A person affected by something similar to it is not crazy. Yes it is true that the prophet (peace be upon him) was affected by something similar to that, but it in no way affected the religious guidance he gave. He was still ‘sane’ as is apparent by his understanding that something was wrong and his continued attempts to change what was wrong.

As for the other quotes, they should all be taken in context. As for the ‘date’ quote, isn’t it plausible that this was revealed to him after the incident of being affected by magic? As for the last quote I am familiar with the book you quoted from, but not the quote its self but it sound similar to an incident that occurred after his (peace be upon him) first account with the angel Gabriel as mentioned in the following quote:

“The first revelation that was sent down to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was in the cave of Hiraa’ where he used to go to worship, when Jibreel came to him and commanded him to read. The Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “I am not a reader.” This happened again, and on the third time, he said to him:

*“Read! In the Name of your Lord Who has created (all that exists).
He has created man from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood).
Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous *
[al-‘Alaq 96:1-3 – interpretation of the meaning]

The Messenger went back home, his heart pounding. He entered upon his wife Khadeejah and told her what had happened, saying “I feared for myself.” She calmed him down and said, “By Allaah, Allaah will never forsake you, for you uphold the ties of kinship, help the weak, honour your guests, give in charity and help when some one is stricken with calamity.” Then she went with him to her cousin Waraqah ibn Nawfal, who had become a Christian. When he told him what had happened, he gave him glad tidings and told him, this is the Naamoos whom Allaah sent to Moosa. He encouraged him to be patient if his people persecuted him and expelled him. Then the wahy stopped for a while, and the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was saddened by that. Then whilst he was walking one day, he saw the angel again, between the heavens and the earth. He went back to his house and wrapped himself in his blanket. Then Allaah revealed the words (interpretation of the meaning):

*“O you (Muhammad) enveloped in garments!
Arise and warn!” *[al-Muddaththir 74:1-2]

After that, revelations came one after another to the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).”

Many prophets were called mad by their people. The way you judge a religion is by its scriptures, not by picking a quote from here and another from there, particularly if they are out of context.

Allah says in the Quraan (52: 29-36):

*“Therefore, remind and preach (mankind, O Muhammad SAW of Islamic Monotheism). By the Grace of Allah, you are neither a soothsayer, nor a madman.

Or do they say: "(Muhammad SAW is) a poet! We await for him some calamity by time!

Say (O Muhammad SAW to them): “Wait! I am with you, among the waiters!”

Do their minds command them this * or are they people exceeding the bounds (i.e. from Belief in Allah to disbelief).

Or do they say: “He (Muhammad SAW) has forged it (this Quran)?” Nay! They believe not!

Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Quran) if they are truthful.

Were they created by nothing, or were they themselves the creators?

Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, but they have no firm Belief.”**

 

[Linda_Marie]

clean themselves following answering the call of nature with their left hand only.

In Saudi Arabia, back in the time of Mohammad and really, up until relatively recently, there was no toilet paper, or any paper or much of anything available to clean oneself after answering a call of nature. One had to use a hand.

Couple this with the other practice - no silverware was used for eating. You eat with your right hand. A platter of food is placed before you; you smear your right hand on the roast to get it all fatty, then take a handful of rice and squeeze it together (the fat on the hand helps it to clump and hold together) to put it in your mouth.

If you have used your right hand to clean yourself, and there being no water or soap with which to wash your hand, and you subsequently use it as described above to eat, serious illness will result, perhaps even death. So it would definitely pay to be obsessive about using the left exclusively for ‘unclean’ things.

There are probably other similar reasons to follow the ritual washings.

Oh, and they did not shave. They used sugar, cooked into candy to remove hair, like modern women use wax.

IMO, we could do worse than to follow their example of praying at least 5 times a day. Catholics used to pray more often and some still do follow the Liturgy of the Hours. Of all things Muslim, I find this not to be something to criticise them about. We should pray that God enlighten them during their prayers to the truth of Christ.

 

[exoflare]

Simple cutting and pasting from Islamic hate websites isn’t really a way of debating. It would be on par with me saying that the Bible claims that God was tempted by the devil (Luke 4:2) (Im not quite sure if you believe Jesus was God or not).

How did you arrive at the conclusion that those were from a “hate site”? They were just quotes from hadiths.

Anyway, what is so bad about quoting Luke 4:2 ?

 

[inJESUS]

Simple cutting and pasting from Islamic hate websites isn’t really a way of debating.

i quoted your hadith…whether they are found in Islamic sites or not is irrelevant because they will remain yours.

Firstly, you have no understanding of the Islamic concept of Sihr (magic).

 

[Booklover]

How did you arrive at the conclusion that those were from a “hate site”? They were just quotes from hadiths.

Anyway, what is so bad about quoting Luke 4:2 ?

Any site that criticises Islam is considered a “hate” site by Muslims!

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

Hi,

I came across this post while searching the web. I feel obliged to reply.

1. Wudu (Ablution) is not a sign of a disorder. As Muslims we are obligated to wash in a particular manner before prayer. This takes less than 5 minutes or even less. Islam places a lot of emphasis on purity, both physical and spiritual. A good example to illustrate this point would be a person who has a shower everyday. Would it be fair to say a person was ‘not all there’ if he had a shower every morning? The person obviously wants to be clean, and isn’t it befitting that someone who wants to worship God should be clean?

If you believe in so much cleanliness, how do you explain these sayings in the hadiths??

If you cover your feet with dust for Allah’s cause, then Allah will save them from hell fire…(Sahih Bukhari, 2.13.30)

If you have a bad dream then spit on your left and seek refuge from Allah…(Sahih Bukhari, 9.87.133)

Share a tooth pick between two persons…(Sunaan Abu Dawud, 1.0050)

If you touch a carcass, no need to wash your hands…(Sunaan Abu Dawud, 1.0186)

You can use polluted water for ablution…(Sunaan Abu Dawud, 1.0066)

or this:

Ash Shifa (p.35) states that women collected Muhammad’s sweat, because his sweat smelled perfume. Asha shifa continues:The messenger of Allah slept on a rug in the house of Anas and perspired. Anas’s mother brought a long necked bottle in which to put his sweat. The Messenger of Allah asked her about this she said, “We put it in our perfume and it is the most fragrant of scents.”

Vickie

 

[inJESUS]

I do not think it is about cleanliness, but rather about rituals to please Allah…

Check this :

Drinking the urine of the Prophet Muhammad was deemed a blessing.

Dr. Ali Gum’a wrote that the companions of the Prophet Muhammad would bless
themselves by drinking his urine, and described an incident of urine-drinking
from a hadith:“Umm Ayman drank the urine of the Prophet, and the prophet told
her:‘This stomach will not be dragged through the fire of Hell, because it
contains something of our Lord the Messenger of Allah…’

”This blessing,“ Al-Gum’a added,”[can also] be done with the
honorable saliva, sweat, hair, urine or blood of the Prophet. This is because
anyone who knows the love of the Messenger of Allah is not repulsed [by these];
just as a mother is not repulsed by the feces of her son, this is even more so
[in the case of] our Lord the Messenger of Allah, whom we love more than our
fathers, sons, and wives. Anyone who was or is repulsed by the Messenger of
Allah must recant his faith.“

Continuing Gum’a fatwa:”The entire body of the Prophet, whether exposed or hidden, is
pure, and there is nothing in it– including his secretions – that [can] repulse
anyone. His sweat smelled better than perfume. Umm Haram would collect this
sweat and distribute it to the people of Al-Madina.“

Dr. Gum’a added:”The hadith of Suhail bin Omar at Al-Hudaybiya
says:‘Oh Lord, I was with Kisra [the ruler of Persia] and with Kaisar [the
ruler of Byzantium] and I saw no instance in which the leader was glorified like
the Companions of the Prophet glorified Muhammad. **The second Muhammad spat, one of them would immediately hasten [to grab his saliva] and smear it upon his
face.’ **Hence, the ulema, including Ibn Hajar Al-Askalani, Al-Baihaqi,
Al-Daraqutni and Al-Haythami, determined that the Prophet’s entire body was
pure."

maybe praying with Muhammads saliva on the face does not require ablution after all…he was so pure…

 

[Booklover]

I do not think it is about cleanliness, but rather about rituals to please Allah…

Check this :

Drinking the urine of the Prophet Muhammad was deemed a blessing.

Dr. Ali Gum’a wrote that the companions of the Prophet Muhammad would bless
themselves by drinking his urine, and described an incident of urine-drinking
from a hadith:“Umm Ayman drank the urine of the Prophet, and the prophet told
her:‘This stomach will not be dragged through the fire of Hell, because it
contains something of our Lord the Messenger of Allah…’

”This blessing,“ Al-Gum’a added,”[can also] be done with the
honorable saliva, sweat, hair, urine or blood of the Prophet. This is because
anyone who knows the love of the Messenger of Allah is not repulsed [by these];
just as a mother is not repulsed by the feces of her son, this is even more so
[in the case of] our Lord the Messenger of Allah, whom we love more than our
fathers, sons, and wives. Anyone who was or is repulsed by the Messenger of
Allah must recant his faith.“

Continuing Gum’a fatwa:”The entire body of the Prophet, whether exposed or hidden, is
pure, and there is nothing in it– including his secretions – that [can] repulse
anyone. His sweat smelled better than perfume. Umm Haram would collect this
sweat and distribute it to the people of Al-Madina.“

Dr. Gum’a added:”The hadith of Suhail bin Omar at Al-Hudaybiya
says:‘Oh Lord, I was with Kisra [the ruler of Persia] and with Kaisar [the
ruler of Byzantium] and I saw no instance in which the leader was glorified like
the Companions of the Prophet glorified Muhammad. The second Muhammad spat, one of them would immediately hasten [to grab his saliva] and smear it upon his
**face.’ **Hence, the ulema, including Ibn Hajar Al-Askalani, Al-Baihaqi,
Al-Daraqutni and Al-Haythami, determined that the Prophet’s entire body was
pure."

maybe praying with Muhammads saliva on the face does not require ablution after all…he was so pure…

Sunaan Abu Dawud, Book 1, Number 0067:
Narrated Abu Sa’id al-Khudri:
I heard that the people asked the Prophet of Allah (peace_be_upon_him): Water is brought for you from the well of Buda’ah. It is a well in which dead dogs, menstrual clothes and excrement of people are thrown. The Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) replied: Verily water is pure and is not defiled by anything.

Vickie

 

[inJESUS]

See , after all its not a universal standard of cleanliness…it is not about being clean…its about rituals with the intention of being clean…if we are to pray all the time as Jesus says, then better live in a swimming pool no wonder Jesus says the heart matters to God beyond any other thing…“son, give me your heart”…so if one wants to live with such rituals, it is fine, if the intention is reverence for God, but , if the person is doing these things thinking they will carry him straight to heaven, then surely this person has not heard of Jesus because nothing takes one to God’s presence except God’s mercy , nothing saves except God’s salvation, neither ablution, nor clothes, nor food…

 

[Booklover]

asteroid, all that is true, the points you brought up. But IMO Islam puts just WAY WAY more demands and restrictions upon the lives of anyone who wishes to follow it as it is meant to be followed (really there is not such a thing as “fundamentalism” in Islam; there’s been no “reformation”, no “age of enlightenment”, as there was in the Christian world for example). Therefore, technically, any Muslim who desires to really be a true devout Muslim HAS to believe, literally, “fundamentally”, in all of the dogma,etc. In Christianity, in Catholicism, although we are supposed to believe in certain ways and follow the edicts of the Pope in our lives, et, it doesn’t mean that anyone is going to declare us “unCatholic”, or “excommunicate” us, or possibly even do physical harm to us if we are not seen by them to be “Catholic enough”. The Shi’as do it whenever they get the chance, witness Iran. And that’s definitely how it is in the strict Sunni countries, particularly the Gulf Arab countries. Though, I believe, Muh.himself advised Muslims *against *doing what the Arabs call “takfir” , that is, declaring someone else (who claims to be a Muslim) to be a “kaafir”, or “unbeliever”, so many of the devout (esp.the Wahabist / Salafist-types , or the devout
Shi’ites in their case) will do just that. And the most radical of them may even have no problem “takfiring” you ( “You’re tak-fired!” ) and then taking it to the *next *step, which is that anyone who is not a “true Muslim” is therefore an apostate from Islam and that any apostate can and should be killed. It might sound like I’m exaggerating and I’m not trying to Muslim-bash here, but it’s just the truth.

As you said in your point a. ritualised washing, especially as cleansing before prayer, is common in many cultures. True. It was and is common still amongst the Orthodox and particularly the “ultraOrthodox” Jews. It was common amongst the Jews in Jesus’s time. I think part of Jesus’s message , if I’m not mistaken , was that such things are essentially unnecessary, perhaps even unadvisable, in order to gain a real communion with God. The Pharisees hated when he made comments that made it sound like their tedious laws and rituals ( again, kind of like the Hasidim today for instance) were essentially unnecessary. Part of his message is that it isn’t the man who is excessively pious and tedious about observation(s) of some Law (or “laws”) , who observes them but rather by rote and repetition as opposed to true feeling, and then feels himself to be “holier than Thou”, who is able to get into the closest spiritual communion with God. It is in fact the sinner, or the one who returns to the fold after being gone. Look at the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector both praying in the Temple , for instance, or of course the ever-powerful parable of the Prodigal Son. That is what I think Jesus would make of much of the devout Islamic’s ritual(s), prayers at appointed times, etc. That they’re not entirely all that much UNlike that of the Pharisees of His own day. Devotion to Christ cancels out the need for such things, plain and simple. In my opinion at least.

b) many people using these forums, including myself, have or have had mental health problems. We are not condemned for it.

For the record, I"m not condeming you, anyone else on this forum, OR Muh. even, for the fact that they have, or have had, “mental health problems”. I have as well. My heart goes out to such people, in fact I say novenas to St.Dymphna regularly for that purpose for myself and some people in my own family. My main point was as I stated in the paragraph above. About all of the tedious rite and ritual, and Law observance , etc., being excessive, inherently unnecessary, and possibly “overly pious” in some ways, leading the follower to spend so much time pondering trivialities, like whether or not he can flip a light switch on the Sabbath, or whether his food is perfectly “kosher” or “halal”, or what hand he cleans himself with (in this day and age of anti-bacterial soaps where none of that really matters anymore anyway!!), when he could instead be meditating, and / or praying, and coming genuinely closer to God. Peace…

I agree with what you’ve stated. No one is condemning anyone with mental disorders. I’ve suffered from OCD myself, but the Islamic way of life is excessive in these rituals. What does it matter what foot you enter a mosque or a bathroom with first. That is downright ridiculous. How does that benefit anybody? IMHO the Islamic way of live is neither healthy, nor beneficial to anybody and is surely guaranteed to make people suffer from OCD!

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

See , after all its not a universal standard of cleanliness…it is not about being clean…its about rituals with the intention of being clean…if we are to pray all the time as Jesus says, then better live in a swimming pool no wonder Jesus says the heart matters to God beyond any other thing…“son, give me your heart”…so if one wants to live with such rituals, it is fine, if the intention is reverence for God, but , if the person is doing these things thinking they will carry him straight to heaven, then surely this person has not heard of Jesus because nothing takes one to God’s presence except God’s mercy , nothing saves except God’s salvation, neither ablution, nor clothes, nor food…

The problem with following that way of life in non-Muslim countries is that it interferes with other people’s lives and business practices! Having to stop to wash and pray 5 times a day during business hours is not conducive to the harmony of the work day or to its efficiency, but Muslims are taught I believe, that unless they perform these rituals to the letter at the prescribed times, they will go to hell. That’s why Muslims sue their secular employers when they get fed up with the practice. And this archaic way of life is what Muslims believe everyone should embrace! No wonder Muslim countries are among the most backward on the planet!

In one hospital in England Muslim patients’ beds are moved 5 times a day to face Mecca so they can say their prayers!

Vickie

 

[FaithofAbraham]

It’s important to remember not all Muslims accept Hadith and when they do, different sects accept different Hadith.

Much is viewed like Apocrypha is by Christians: interesting to read, perhaps some bits of truth, but not authoritative.

 

[inJESUS]

It’s important to remember not all Muslims accept Hadith and when they do, different sects accept different Hadith.

Much is viewed like Apocrypha is by Christians: interesting to read, perhaps some bits of truth, but not authoritative.

thats why we are quoting hadith accepted as Sahih by Muslims.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

thats why we are quoting hadith accepted as Sahih by Muslims.

Again not all Muslims even accept any Hadith, more as more as time goes on.

 

[Booklover]

Again not all Muslims even accept any Hadith, more as more as time goes on.

Your quote reminded of a satire written by an ex-Muslim about debating with infidels:

8… If he shows up with the hadiths and siras in hand and quotes the context of the violent ayas by referring to hadiths of prophet’s rapes, robberies , assassinations and genocides then insist that "all hadiths and siras are heresay and are false, and only truth is in quran.



Vickie