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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
- With no ties to Judaism or the Church.
- Status
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StLawrenceFan
Guest
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Sam_777
Guest
I personally think (Genesis 17:17-22) refute any claim to any Ishmael descendent to claim that YHWH sent him:
"Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, "Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety? And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing! Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year. When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.”
"Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, "Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety? And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing! Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year. When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.”
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
Well, there’s only one explanation for this: the Jews changed it later. Whether it was before or after they turned into pigs and dogs, I don’t know (I would normally say that pigs and dogs can’t write, but those Jews are crafty…).
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Lothair
Guest
Muslims are desperately struggling with our repudiations of their demonstrably imprecise and unstudied commentaries. In the instant case, Muslims are pairing the sons of Abraham as having the same role and purpose in covenental theology by splicing Muhammad into the earliest stages of God’s promises to the Israelites. Let me give some of the back story so that we can set the ground rules for Biblical exegesis, then move into the specifics. Once I have finished a brief, yet meaningful exegesis of the relevant passages, we can examine Mr. Khan’s immediate claims. Not that I have kept all spelling errors found in the original article written by Mr. Khan, but have inserted a few commets in bold text. The body of my response is to be found below. Here are Mr. Khan’s thoughts on the subject:
Deuteronomy 18: 18-19:- The Lord said to Moses:-l (God) will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put MY (God’s) words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I (God) command him “If any one does not listen to MY words that the prophet speaks in MY name, I myself will call him to account.”
Explanation:- (a) Meaning of brothers-Abraham had two sons, Ismail and his 14 year junior lshaaq. Their descendents were therefore cousin brethren to each other. This prophecy addresses Musa that a prophet will also come from the progeny of Ismail. Hence the use of word brothers.
(b) Christians try to suggest that this prophecy is for the coming of Jesus. This is wrong. It is neither for Jesus nor for any of over two dozen prophets who came between Moses and Jesus because they all were from the progeny of Ishaaq. Ismail was brother to Ishaaq and Muhammad (Ahmed) came from the progeny of Ismail. Therefore this verse is pointing towards Muhammad.
(c)You must listen to him i.e. follow him.
(d) I (God) will put my words in his mouth and he will tell them everything I (God) command.
Qur’aan was revealed by ALLAH to Muhammad over a period of 23 years. The very first line of all revealed Surahs begin with- “In the name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.” Unlike Bible verses, which are “According to Matthew, or Mark, or Luke or John”, etc. In Qur’aan ALLAH is speaking in first person to his creation-mankind. It is in the name of ALLAH and no one else.
(e) I (God) MYSELF will call him to account-Each individual will be accountable to ALLAH for his belief and his deeds on the Day of Judgment.
(f) Christians try to project the names of other prophets i.e. John the Baptist or Jesus but the argument fails because they all i.e. Moses, John the Baptist and Jesus were from the line of Ishaaq. Only Muhammad was from the progeny of Ismail who was the brother to Ishaaq.
(g) A Prophet like you -i.e. like Moses, and Moses was like Muhammad. Beacuse:-
(i) Both were born in a normal manner.
(ii) Both were married and they raised a family.
(iii) Both became prophets.
(iv) Both received Divine Revelations-Torah & Qur’aan respectively.
(v) Both were leaders and rulers of their followers.
(vi) Both died a natural death.
(h) On the contrary:-
(i) Jesus was not born normally
(ii) Nor his end was in a normal way.
Therefore Moses is not like Jesus, but Moses is very much like Muhammad. Therefore Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18:18-19 refer to Muhammad and not to anyone else.
**Now that we have let him speak for himself, let’s delve into the Book of Genesis. Some of this will be already familiar. Abraham was born the son of Terah [Gen 11:26; cf Q. 6:74] and as the Quran suggests, he was born into a pagan family that worshiped its own local gods [Jos 24:2]. Nevertheless, a land and a legacy were promised to Abraham, but in a far away place he had never seen, and at that time under the rule of Egypt. Setting out in his middle age from Haran with his family and possessions ,he arrived in Shechem and set up his tents. What happened next is where the controversy begins and where Islamic theoreticians make an exegetical blunder of the first order.
While it is true that Sarah felt the ‘Lord had restrained’ her from having children [Gen 16:1,2] the events that followed were a brazen attempt to provide the Promised Son by human means and the ploy was hatched in her frustrated mind and sinful heart alone. While her motivation can be understood, her actions not exonerated so readily. Abraham sinned as well, by capitulating to the wife he loved. Confounded by God’s absence for so long, he staggered in his faith and in desperation actively interfered after being given explicit directions. Only later would his faith be brought to perfection [Gen 22-25:11] Their joint actions are indicative of the frustration both felt towards the God who had brought them so far, and as yet, had given them so little. Soon, we meet Hagar, who must be the only innocent soul in the narrative. She is forced into bondage, made to be the surrogate mother of Abraham’s child, then abused by Sarah for admiring her newfound status.
Hagar bears her son in bondage, and though Abraham loved his firstborn, Ishmael is not the heir of the covenant not the keeper of God’s people [Gen 17:18ff]. The reasons are hard to sympathize with, though easy to explain. Ishmael is the carnal son of disobedience, Isaac is the real fruit of God’s grace [Gal 4:29]. Ishmael is to be cast out, along with his mother. Both are truly victims of envy and disobedience. Each was wholly expelled from the land in order that the son of the Promise could grow and be happy. While Abraham was distressed and hurt, God intervened and once again connected the pre-eminence of Isaac with the seed and offspring of this Holy Family [Gen 21:8-10]. God himself determined that Ishmael was unfit to assume the title of Patriarchal Son and no amount of paternal affection would alter the course of history.**
**A few closing question that I’d like posters to answer:
[1] Is it important that the Quran claims to be the ‘first person’ speech of Allah?
[2] Is the list of similarites between Moses and Muhammad even relevant Hint: they both hand two hands and two eyes as well]. Are there any other problems with this ‘list’?
[3] Does anyone care to exegete the word ‘brethren’ as used by Deuteronomy in theses passages? Is Mr. Khan abusing the word?
I think that does it for now.**
Deuteronomy 18: 18-19:- The Lord said to Moses:-l (God) will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put MY (God’s) words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I (God) command him “If any one does not listen to MY words that the prophet speaks in MY name, I myself will call him to account.”
Explanation:- (a) Meaning of brothers-Abraham had two sons, Ismail and his 14 year junior lshaaq. Their descendents were therefore cousin brethren to each other. This prophecy addresses Musa that a prophet will also come from the progeny of Ismail. Hence the use of word brothers.
(b) Christians try to suggest that this prophecy is for the coming of Jesus. This is wrong. It is neither for Jesus nor for any of over two dozen prophets who came between Moses and Jesus because they all were from the progeny of Ishaaq. Ismail was brother to Ishaaq and Muhammad (Ahmed) came from the progeny of Ismail. Therefore this verse is pointing towards Muhammad.
(c)You must listen to him i.e. follow him.
(d) I (God) will put my words in his mouth and he will tell them everything I (God) command.
Qur’aan was revealed by ALLAH to Muhammad over a period of 23 years. The very first line of all revealed Surahs begin with- “In the name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.” Unlike Bible verses, which are “According to Matthew, or Mark, or Luke or John”, etc. In Qur’aan ALLAH is speaking in first person to his creation-mankind. It is in the name of ALLAH and no one else.
(e) I (God) MYSELF will call him to account-Each individual will be accountable to ALLAH for his belief and his deeds on the Day of Judgment.
(f) Christians try to project the names of other prophets i.e. John the Baptist or Jesus but the argument fails because they all i.e. Moses, John the Baptist and Jesus were from the line of Ishaaq. Only Muhammad was from the progeny of Ismail who was the brother to Ishaaq.
(g) A Prophet like you -i.e. like Moses, and Moses was like Muhammad. Beacuse:-
(i) Both were born in a normal manner.
(ii) Both were married and they raised a family.
(iii) Both became prophets.
(iv) Both received Divine Revelations-Torah & Qur’aan respectively.
(v) Both were leaders and rulers of their followers.
(vi) Both died a natural death.
(h) On the contrary:-
(i) Jesus was not born normally
(ii) Nor his end was in a normal way.
Therefore Moses is not like Jesus, but Moses is very much like Muhammad. Therefore Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18:18-19 refer to Muhammad and not to anyone else.
**Now that we have let him speak for himself, let’s delve into the Book of Genesis. Some of this will be already familiar. Abraham was born the son of Terah [Gen 11:26; cf Q. 6:74] and as the Quran suggests, he was born into a pagan family that worshiped its own local gods [Jos 24:2]. Nevertheless, a land and a legacy were promised to Abraham, but in a far away place he had never seen, and at that time under the rule of Egypt. Setting out in his middle age from Haran with his family and possessions ,he arrived in Shechem and set up his tents. What happened next is where the controversy begins and where Islamic theoreticians make an exegetical blunder of the first order.
While it is true that Sarah felt the ‘Lord had restrained’ her from having children [Gen 16:1,2] the events that followed were a brazen attempt to provide the Promised Son by human means and the ploy was hatched in her frustrated mind and sinful heart alone. While her motivation can be understood, her actions not exonerated so readily. Abraham sinned as well, by capitulating to the wife he loved. Confounded by God’s absence for so long, he staggered in his faith and in desperation actively interfered after being given explicit directions. Only later would his faith be brought to perfection [Gen 22-25:11] Their joint actions are indicative of the frustration both felt towards the God who had brought them so far, and as yet, had given them so little. Soon, we meet Hagar, who must be the only innocent soul in the narrative. She is forced into bondage, made to be the surrogate mother of Abraham’s child, then abused by Sarah for admiring her newfound status.
Hagar bears her son in bondage, and though Abraham loved his firstborn, Ishmael is not the heir of the covenant not the keeper of God’s people [Gen 17:18ff]. The reasons are hard to sympathize with, though easy to explain. Ishmael is the carnal son of disobedience, Isaac is the real fruit of God’s grace [Gal 4:29]. Ishmael is to be cast out, along with his mother. Both are truly victims of envy and disobedience. Each was wholly expelled from the land in order that the son of the Promise could grow and be happy. While Abraham was distressed and hurt, God intervened and once again connected the pre-eminence of Isaac with the seed and offspring of this Holy Family [Gen 21:8-10]. God himself determined that Ishmael was unfit to assume the title of Patriarchal Son and no amount of paternal affection would alter the course of history.**
**A few closing question that I’d like posters to answer:
[1] Is it important that the Quran claims to be the ‘first person’ speech of Allah?
[2] Is the list of similarites between Moses and Muhammad even relevant Hint: they both hand two hands and two eyes as well]. Are there any other problems with this ‘list’?
[3] Does anyone care to exegete the word ‘brethren’ as used by Deuteronomy in theses passages? Is Mr. Khan abusing the word?
I think that does it for now.**
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
- I think so, because then we have to study and review what could be the decrees of God and what would be the decrees of a man. At one point during the revelation of the Koran, Mohammad’s young wife Aisha stated: "“I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires.”
- I think much of the list is rather subjective, since it pretty much sums up many prophets found throughout the Old Testament, as well as other supposed “prophets” from then on. The fact is that nowhere does it say that the prophet is to be literally identical in lifestyle or life story (this is presupposition), but merely a prophet like Moses, who could therefore serve a similar purpose to Moses and his mission.
- The word “brethren” is abused because by then the Israelites and Ishmaelites were not brethren - it was some hundreds of years in separation between the time of Abraham to the time of Moses, and Ishmael’s descendants had already grown and developed into an entirely different people. When Joseph’s brothers have him trapped in a pit and ponder what to do with him, a pack of Ishmaelites arrive and they sell him to them - they never once refer to them as brothers, brethren, nor is it treated in such a manner (Genesis 37). They were therefore considered an entirely different people. Khan’s assertion also seems to ignore the specification by God of who was in His covenant (that being Isaac), which is quoted in Sam_777’s post above.
“Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’” [Acts 3:19-23]
Mohammad is the prophet like Moses? The first generation of Christians disagree.
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Sam_777
Guest
Logically if the Jews did that, then Jesus would have warned about it, Jesus would have pointed out that part of the Torah is corrupted, but according to my knowledge there is no mentioning of such thing in all Christian scriptures, so any claim by Muslims for such excuse is illogical.
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
Neither did the apostles ever accuse the Jews of doing so. They certainly accused them of turning a blind eye to the truth in front of them, but corrupting scripture? They never argued that.
Note: Obviously, my original post about the Jews was dripping with sarcasm
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ZAKI
Guest
I seriously hate this. We have a few muslim scholars who try their hardest to pick out verses in the bible and try to interpret something to mean “islam” or Muhammed (pbuh). I think it’s stupid and sometimes can undermine my entire religion. Especially when you have islam-haters who are ready to class these views as “islamic” views or that “this is what muslims believe”. No I don’t believe these wild theories and most muslims don’t. However I still respect these men for their intentions.
wasalam
wasalam
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
What I don’t get are the ones who try to find Mohammad in non-Jewish/Christian scripture, ie. Hindu/Buddhist/Taoist/Confucian/Native American/etc scripture. I mean it makes sense (from a Muslim perspective) to look for Mohammad in the Jewish or Christian scripture, since the Koran mentions the Torat and Injil and asks Jews and Christians to look for him there, but then when Muslim apologists like Zakir Naik try to take a Hindu word from a Hindu scripture and toy with its translation and say, “Oh look, Mohammad!” I just zone out. If a prophet comes from the line of a certain religion, it makes sense that only those in that religion would be looking for them. Christ wasn’t expected by Roman pagan priests, neither in Hindu literature or Buddhist thought, and the apostles never argued He was there. If a Christian tried that, I’d quickly call the psychic ward.
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ZAKI
Guest
WOAH! NOWAY! gasp I did not know that!
Okay okay, it’s too obvious I’m being sarcastic. But seriously!
Jesus (pbuh) is mentioned in the Holy Quran because muslims believe that he is a prophet sent down from God.
Muhammed (pbuh) is not mentioned in the bible because he is yet to exist. Also I do not believe in the bible even though it still has some true and good teachings.
tu comprendre senor?
wasalam
A
Angelo_Michael
Guest
I don’t agree. Consider that John the Baptist said that God could raise up children to Abraham from stones. Also, what about Nebuchadrezzar, the servant of God, to whom all the peoples and animals of the world were given as property? And what about Cyrus, God’s shepherd, spoken of in Isaiah? Or what about the covenant of the three nations: Israel, Assyria, and Egypt; also mentioned in Isaiah?
Consider also when Joseph’s brothers became jealous of him and desired to kill him but Judah talked them into selling him. He was sold to Ishmaelite traders, and they sold him into the hands of Egyptians. And this is similar to the treatment of Christ in that all His apostles deserted Him though John cared for His mother.
Or is Judas Iscariot more honorable than Mohammad (PBUH) because he was a descendant of Isaac and Jacob?
Or consider that there is a thief, a hired hand, and a good shepherd; and that every faithful servant can attain equality with its Master.
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
I think you’re comparing apples and oranges. None of those men were promised a covenant or part of any covenant making. Muslims claim Ishmael was part of that covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, when, in fact, God says that He will simply protect Ishmael but promises the covenant with Isaac. Ishmael does not play a major role here other than to show that the ways of mankind (Sarah making Hagar give birth to Ishmael) are not compatible or as workable as the ways of God (the birth of Isaac during Sarah’s infertility and old age).
Also, John the Baptist’s reference to the stones refers to the inclusion of Gentiles into what will be God’s Church, not the prophesy regarding Moses and a prophet like Moses.
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Angelo_Michael
Guest
I am not advocating an infallibility of Islamic doctrines or teachings but reminding that race is not the only factor involved, either in Judasim itself, or in God’s work. As far as what God promises, there are a few Scriptures that indicate that it is adaptable [or malleable].
Consider
Jeremiah 18:
1: The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2: Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3: Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4: And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5: Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6: O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7: At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8: If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9: And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10: If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
and also
1 Samuel 2:
27: And there came a man of God unto Eli, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Did I plainly appear unto the house of thy father, when they were in Egypt in Pharaoh’s house?
28: And did I choose him out of all the tribes of Israel to be my priest, to offer upon mine altar, to burn incense, to wear an ephod before me? and did I give unto the house of thy father all the offerings made by fire of the children of Israel?
29: Wherefore kick ye at my sacrifice and at mine offering, which I have commanded in my habitation; and honourest thy sons above me, to make yourselves fat with the chiefest of all the offerings of Israel my people?
30: Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: *but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed. *
31: Behold, the days come, that I will cut off thine arm, and the arm of thy father’s house, that there shall not be an old man in thine house.
32: And thou shalt see an enemy in my habitation, in all the wealth which God shall give Israel: and there shall not be an old man in thine house for ever.
33: And the man of thine, whom I shall not cut off from mine altar, shall be to consume thine eyes, and to grieve thine heart: and all the increase of thine house shall die in the flower of their age.
34: And this shall be a sign unto thee, that shall come upon thy two sons, on Hophni and Phinehas; in one day they shall die both of them.
35: And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.
36: And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left in thine house shall come and crouch to him for a piece of silver and a morsel of bread, and shall say, Put me, I pray thee, into one of the priests’ offices, that I may eat a piece of bread.
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Sam_777
Guest
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jakasaki
Guest
I’ve researched tons and tons of islamic sites, NOT - anti-islamic sites and they all point to what these “muslim scholars” claim. They all claim that mohamad is found in the Bible just like Lothair is posting.
I have yet to find an islamic site which supports your post.
Meaning, I have yet to see one islamic site that claims mohamad IS NOT found in the Bible.
If you have such a site or sites, please post them for review.
Otherwise, your statement about “we have a few muslim scholars who try their hardest to pick out verses in the bible… etc…etc…” is meaningless.
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Lothair
Guest
Muslim like the one above haven’t read the Quran [Q. 7:157]. Muhammad did indeed think that his traits and description would be found in the Torah and the Gospel [cf. al Jalalayn; Ibn Abbas, etc].
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jakasaki
Guest
Yes indeed!!! The famous 7.157
Hogwash! Nonsense!!!
The mistake here that allah made, ahem… the author of the koran… is that he didn’t quote the scripture within the Torah and & Gospel where this “prophet mohamad is mentioned”.
Therefore allah is NOT all-knowing is he now.
So, I therefore repeat… Hogwash! Nonsense!!!
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hamba2han
Guest
Since Christians claim that Jesus (pbuh) is the “begotten Son of God”, then are they also making the same claim for Moses (pbuh)?
If the answer is ‘No’, then it surely defies all sense of logic for them to say that it is really Jesus (pbuh) who is the “prophet like Moses” referred to in Deuteronomy 18:18-19.
And so then, who indeed do Christians believe is the “prophet like Moses” the Lord says He will raise up in the aforementioned Biblical verses?
If the answer is ‘No’, then it surely defies all sense of logic for them to say that it is really Jesus (pbuh) who is the “prophet like Moses” referred to in Deuteronomy 18:18-19.
And so then, who indeed do Christians believe is the “prophet like Moses” the Lord says He will raise up in the aforementioned Biblical verses?
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hamba2han
Guest
Emotions all too often do indeed get in the way of logical reasoning.
- Status