Muhammad rejected Christianity/Jesus

[expounder]

“so people don’t worship objects rather than God”

Uh, we don’t worship the object.

I realise that but i’m just saying that;s how idolatry can begin. I’m fully aware Jesus on the cross is God anyway, so there’s no idolatry because he is God

 

[expounder]

“when you think about God what do you imagine?”

What do you think about? Is that a “graven” image?

What do i think about? I focus on God’s attributes rather than a physical image. That helps me to both understand and communicate to God better.

 

[LtTony]

You’re right. Idolatry can begin a lot of ways. But there is no power in icons, or inspirational pictures, that sort of thing. They represent the power of God, and the objects are not worshipped.

 

[LtTony]

What do i think about? I focus on God’s attributes rather than a physical image. That helps me to both understand and communicate to God better.

How do you imagine his attributes?

Never put a face on God? If you don’t believe in the divinity of Christ then it cuts your chances in half. Many, if not most, people are visual. If you or someone did imagine a face of God, would that be a graven image?

 

[tabycat]

I guess the essence of that commandment is to prevent idolatry, so people don’t worship objects rather than God directly.
Think about it when you think about God what do you imagine?
Answer: Jesus on the cross
Likewise other objects people might use as a medium to pray to God, could potentially be worshipped.

When I see an Image of Jesus on the Cross or a image of the Blessed Virgin Mary, I am reminded of all that He; and His Mother, have gaven me, not to make an idol of the cross or Mary or of Her Image.

 

[LtTony]

When I see an Image of Jesus on the Cross or a image of the Blessed Virgin Mary, I am reminded of all that He gave me, not to make an idol of the cross or Mary or of Her Image.

Me too. Inspirational art is intended to… inspire.

Hey expounder. Is it OK to draw a picture of a bird? Explain.

 

[Reuben_J]

explain to me this commandment;
thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images
There are image of jesus christ everywhere on crosses etc, isn’t this going against divine decree?

The reason why Catholics can put up statues and images have been answered already. God allowed them.

As for the prohibition of graven images, they are not allowed only if for the purpose of worshipping them. Like they made model of a cow and worshipped it. That kind of thing God prohibited because it made people deviating away from worshipping Him.

The work of art or symbolism however was allowed. Thus the earlier posters mentioned about how God directed the Israelites to construct the image of angels.

We have statues and images in our churches building and home and museums. They are not for worship and we do not worship them.

There are Christians however who take this strictly and perhaps literally. These Christians do not have statues or images.

 

[expounder]

How do you imagine his attributes?

Never put a face on God? If you don’t believe in the divinity of Christ then it cuts your chances in half. Many, if not most, people are visual. If you or someone did imagine a face of God, would that be a graven image?

No one knows what God looks like, we can both agree here, you haven’t seen the father or the holy ghost and both of our mind are too finite to understand God. Visualising an image or drawing one is therefore not allowed, firstly because God can be made fun of in drawings and secondly because it is giving a pretence to God.
With regards to the divinity of Jesus, being a muslim it cuts my chances in half by thinking that

 

[LtTony]

No one knows what God looks like, we can both agree here, you haven’t seen the father or the holy ghost and both of our mind are too finite to understand God. Visualising an image or drawing one is therefore not allowed, firstly because God can be made fun of in drawings and secondly because it is giving a pretence to God.
With regards to the divinity of Jesus, being a muslim it cuts my chances in half by thinking that

“Visualising an image or drawing one is therefore not allowed”

Not allowed? We can’t imagine images? How are people to create anything then? It has to be in their head first.
Ever think about a wife, child or family member? That’s not allowed?

“because God can be made fun of in drawings and secondly because it is giving a pretence to God.”

Because it “CAN” be used? What if you use it to glorify God? I guess people shouldn’t speak then because speech can be used to mock the Creator.

What’s wrong with “giving a pretence to God” if it brings you closer to Him?

 

[TheSufi]

From a quotation of Muhammad in an online article, that it is blasphemy indeed to call Allah Christ the Son of Mary, it would seem to me that Muhammad had been exposed to Christianity and rejected it.

Any thoughts on this?

This does NOT mean that I’m against dialogue with Muslims: I’m just conjecturing that Muhammad had directly rejected Christ.

I often pondered on this issue. There seemed to be many sects of Christianity throughout the region. And well as Jewish sects as well. I don’t think Muhammad was exposed to alot of Orthodox Christianity. Whatever sects existed in the time of Muhammad in arabia. We find so-called contradictions in the Quran with well-known Christianity today, like the trinity being God Jesus and Mary, there may have been a sect that believed that. I remember reading this book, on Jesus by some Christian scholars, and vaguely mentioned that Muhammad was exposed to a Christian group who had different writings of the Old Testament, then we have today, and she quote the Quran and found a connection to this different writting of the Old testament. (It was in a book entitled Christ th Great High Priest or something like that by Margaret something) It is not something I researched, but it is definitely sometime to look into. But I think it would be real hard to research certain things, if this sect didn’t have alot of writings or a large following.

Muhammad didn’t reject Christ, he just disagrees with Jesus being God, and there were early Christians who did not believe Jesus was God. He wasn’t alone in that.

 

[TEPO]

My question now is:
Does the bible actually talk about what the trinity is?
We have definitions of it being 3 separate people who all share Godhood, however is this mentioned in the bible?

The way Christians view God, is not in 3 seperate people but in 3 “persons”… The etymological definition of “person” stems from meanings that would be better translated into modern English as: “to sound through” or “related to” … An Ancient Greek word which some believe that it originally stems from is closer to our term"mask" -but that is still debatable.

 

[expounder]

“Visualising an image or drawing one is therefore not allowed”

Not allowed? We can’t imagine images? How are people to create anything then? It has to be in their head first.
Ever think about a wife, child or family member? That’s not allowed?

“because God can be made fun of in drawings and secondly because it is giving a pretence to God.”

Because it “CAN” be used? What if you use it to glorify God? I guess people shouldn’t speak then because speech can be used to mock the Creator.

What’s wrong with “giving a pretence to God” if it brings you closer to Him?

1)i meant drawing/visualising God
2)We can draw images provided the intention is good(eg not for idol worship)
3)You use it to glorify God, then someone comes along and degrades the image…do i want to risk degrading God? no
4)God is not about pretence, God is about the truth. This is like telling me the bible is pretence but it helps to bring one closer to God, so it is alright.

 

[TheSufi]

We Christians know that there is no other Gospel than the one we’ve been preached, as it says in St. Paul’s writings. So, if Muhammad is preaching things which contradict the Gospel, his teachings must be false or contain error.

I say this not to argue with you, expounder, but to help you make a choice of faith.
You ask me to read the Quran. I ask you to read the Gospel, any one of the four or all of them if you wish. But, in the end, you will be making the choice to believe that Jesus is
the “I Am” that He says He is or not.

My problem with Christianity, is I don’t see Jesus as God. The Catholic narrative of Jesus dying for your sins, makes absolutely no sense to me.

And I’ve read the Gospels and I don’t ever see Jesus ever saying He is God in an absolute sense.

 

[Reuben_J]

No one knows what God looks like, we can both agree here, you haven’t seen the father or the holy ghost and both of our mind are too finite to understand God. Visualising an image or drawing one is therefore not allowed, firstly because God can be made fun of in drawings and secondly because it is giving a pretence to God.
With regards to the divinity of Jesus, being a muslim it cuts my chances in half by thinking that

(1) If drawing an image of God is to make fun of him, obviuosly that is a sin. When one finds such drawings in holy places like churches or monastries, they are not meant for making fun but reverence of God. We know that God does not look as what is depicted in the drawing. If you study about art, some of these drawings do carry a message and the message is always as an illustration of the message of the Bible.

(2) Not sure what you mean ‘it is giving a pretence to God.’ As I said, everybody knows that the drawing is not a true image of God but more for the message that contains therein. Drawings of God are not that common in Christendom. The famous one is probably the one in Sistine Chapel in the Vatican by Michaelangelo, the Creation of Adam.

 

[expounder]

The way Christians view God, is not in 3 seperate people but in 3 “persons”… The etymological definition of “person” stems from meanings that would be better translated into modern English as: “to sound through” or “related to” … An Ancient Greek word which some believe that it originally stems from is closer to our term"mask" -but that is still debatable.

A.W. Tozer, in his book The Knowledge of the Holy , writes that the Trinity is an “incomprehensible mystery,” and that attempts to understand it “must remain forever futile.” He admits that churches, “without pretending to understand,” have nevertheless continued to teach this doctrine. He concludes, “The fact that it [the Trinity] cannot be satisfactorily explained, instead of being against it, is in its favor” (Harper & Row, New York, 1961, pp. 17, 18, 23).

I’m sticking with the opinion of this notable personality; the trinity does not make sense.
I’m not going to bother defining or understanding it because my mind is going to explode soon

 

[expounder]

(1) If drawing an image of God is to make fun of him, obviuosly that is a sin. When one finds such drawings in holy places like churches or monastries, they are not meant for making fun but reverence of God. We know that God does not look as what is depicted in the drawing. If you study about art, some of these drawings do carry a message and the message is always as an illustration of the message of the Bible.

(2) Not sure what you mean ‘it is giving a pretence to God.’ As I said, everybody knows that the drawing is not a true image of God but more for the message that contains therein. Drawings of God are not that common in Christendom. The famous one is probably the one in Sistine Chapel in the Vatican by Michaelangelo, the Creation of Adam.

I’ve seen some mocking images of God, which would not have arose if God was not visualised in the first place.
I mean that no one knows what God looks like/is so we can’t draw an image of him if we don’t even know what he looks like. Depending on what is drawn God can be degraded there because God is more than a physical form

 

[Reuben_J]

My problem with Christianity, is I don’t see Jesus as God. The Catholic narrative of Jesus dying for your sins, makes absolutely no sense to me.

Dear TheSufi. Narrative of Jesus death is called the passion of Jesus. The theology of Jesus dying for our sins also has been explained. Just wondering, which part that makes no sense to you?

 

[TheSufi]

Dear TheSufi. Narrative of Jesus death is called the passion of Jesus. The theology of Jesus dying for our sins also has been explained. Just wondering, which part that makes no sense to you?

Why does God have to die for your sins to forgive you? He is all powerful, He can just forgive you.

God coming down to incarnate as a human being, and then have His creation kill Him and then God goes to Hell for 3 days. The all powerfu God goes to hell.

Makes no sense.

 

[LtTony]

Muhammad didn’t reject Christ, he just disagrees with Jesus being God, and there were early Christians who did not believe Jesus was God. He wasn’t alone in that.

And there were people who thought the world was flat. So what? There are plenty of people – Muslims and Christian – who misunderstand their religions even today.

And Mohammad rejected a lot more than the divinity of Christ. The death and resurrection, and that Christ is the only way to God.

 

[Reuben_J]

I’ve seen some mocking images of God, which would not have arose if God was not visualised in the first place.

I agree with you. Of course there are people, especially the anti-Christians who mock God by using the images. However we cannot prevent people from doing it if they want to do so. Even if images are not there, they can always have something else to use to mock God. You see, stopping us from making images does not solve the problem of mocking God. That kind of behaviour will just simply come out in another form, another way.

I mean that no one knows what God looks like/is so we can’t draw an image of him if we don’t even know what he looks like. Depending on what is drawn God can be degraded there because God is more than a physical form

As I said, we know that the image is not an exact replica of God. It is the message that is being derived from such images. We call it the work of art.

Degrading God does not arise. If anything, it simply magnifies God.