muhammad: the illiterate prophet

[r.gonzales]

gomez, my question was a serious one. my brother has in his possession, a book written by a christian priest about the history of the philippines and the conflict between the muslims and christians. i was asking you if you wanted the reference so you could look at it yourself.

 

[hlgomez]

gomez, my question was a serious one. my brother has in his possession, a book written by a christian priest about the history of the philippines and the conflict between the muslims and christians. i was asking you if you wanted the reference so you could look at it yourself.

sure I do.

My questions for the time being are:

Is he a catholic priest?

Is he still a priest now?

are his accounts of history reliable?

Pio

 

[r.gonzales]

i’ll be able to try to find these things out once i get the book’s details.

but from what i remember of the book, the man who wrote it is still christian. and due to the fact that the vast majority of our peoples are catholic, i think it’s pretty safe to assume that he is too.

as for whether or not his sources are reliable, that’s up to you to determine. you brushed off the links i gave you without even giving their sources a second though as “islamic propaganda”… so who knows…

 

[hlgomez]

as for whether or not his sources are reliable, that’s up to you to determine. you brushed off the links i gave you without even giving their sources a second though as “islamic propaganda”… so who knows…

r.gonzales,

do you think i will get a fair Philippine history view from a muslim site? We already know how muslims hate Christians in our country simply because we are Christians and not muslims. We are infidels in your eyes. So why should bother to hear from your fellows? And how much more from a non-filipino site?

Pio

 

[r.gonzales]

hlgomez:

do you think i will get a fair Philippine history view from a muslim site?

simply put, especially from the first link i gave (the compilation of essays compiled by a former-christian, female, convert to islam), yes.

hlgomez:

We are infidels in your eyes. So why should bother to hear from your fellows? And how much more from a non-filipino site?

let me ask you something. do you consider muslims to be believers or disbelievers. plain and simple answer required, no lengthy essay explaining this or that. and please be honest, don’t pull any punches. if you consider us to be the latter, then you view u just as we view you, disbelievers who disbelieve in God and what He has obligated us to believe in.

secondly, it’s funny how you ask that last question concering non-filipino sites… now, let’s take that and flip it around for a sec… how do you expect me, as a practicing muslim continually learning about and researching the different aspects of my religion, to take some of the claims made against it by some of those who post here when they continually quote from anti-islamic sites, christian sites and the like? why would you expect me to consider your claims valid when you automatically declare mine to be islamic propaganda???

 

[hlgomez]

let me ask you something. do you consider muslims to be believers or disbelievers. plain and simple answer required, no lengthy essay explaining this or that. and please be honest, don’t pull any punches. if you consider us to be the latter, then you view u just as we view you, disbelievers who disbelieve in God and what He has obligated us to believe in.

r.gonzales,

I’m being honest and you are offended of what I say? Are you offended by saying that we are infidels in your views? If you are offended because I said we are infidels, then blame it on Muhammad in the first place because he used that term for non-muslims. I’m not pulling any punches.

I never hinted that you are unbelievers. Are you denying your Quran? You might believe in God, but it still defective–plain and simple. It might hurt you, but go find out what I said, not our of hatred but being open to the truth, even to the extent of looking for it outside of Muhammad’s Quran. Be true to yourself, don’t be enslaved by just saying Quran has all of it about God. God’s entire being is not contained in the Quran.

And please, the way you are reacting reminds me of how muslims are–very quick to anger. Help me to erase this in my understanding of muslims. One way is for you to be patient. That’s a good start. I’m not trying to offend you, but if you are offended because of truth–be thankful for it.

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

secondly, it’s funny how you ask that last question concering non-filipino sites… now, let’s take that and flip it around for a sec… how do you expect me, as a practicing muslim continually learning about and researching the different aspects of my religion, to take some of the claims made against it by some of those who post here when they continually quote from anti-islamic sites, christian sites and the like? why would you expect me to consider your claims valid when you automatically declare mine to be islamic propaganda???

First of all I never used any anti-muslim site, neither a Christian site against muslims, for my views about muslims.

What I am saying is this: How can I be so sure that those Islamic sites will contain anything that shows authentic–note, authentic–Philippine history without being rigged with anti-Catholicism? Would you think muslims will write something that will praise the good fruits of Catholicism in the history of the Philippines?

Calm down brother. Your impatience reflects how you are moulded in the practice of your religion.

Pio

 

[r.gonzales]

hlgomez:

I’m being honest and you are offended of what I say? Are you offended by saying that we are infidels in your views?

no, not offended at all. to me, you are disbelievers - and that’s not pulling any punches. according to my beliefs, anyone who associates anything with God - whether it be a son, or an equal of any sort to His divinity is a disbeliever. anyone who rejects the prophethood and messengership of muhammad is a disbeliever.

hlgomez:

I never hinted that you are unbelievers. Are you denying your Quran? You might believe in God, but it still defective–plain and simple. It might hurt you, but go find out what I said, not our of hatred but being open to the truth, even to the extent of looking for it outside of Muhammad’s Quran. Be true to yourself, don’t be enslaved by just saying Quran has all of it about God. God’s entire being is not contained in the Quran.

And please, the way you are reacting reminds me of how muslims are–very quick to anger. Help me to erase this in my understanding of muslims. One way is for you to be patient. That’s a good start. I’m not trying to offend you, but if you are offended because of truth–be thankful for it.

you seem to misunderstand things, gomez. your reply here does not answer my question to you. i asked you if you consider muslims to be disbelievers - meaning according to your beliefs, not mine. according to your beliefs are muslims infidels for saying that jesus is not god, or that he is not the son of god. do you believe muslims to be disbelievers who are destined for hell due to their beliefs?

what you have done here, whether intentionally or not, is run around the issue.

and who said anything about God’s entire being contained in the Quran?

hlgomez:

First of all I never used any anti-muslim site, neither a Christian site against muslims, for my views about muslims in the first place.

What I am saying is this: How can I be so sure that those Islamic sites will contain anything that shows authentic–note, authentic–Philippine history without being rigged with anti-Catholicism? Would you think muslims will write something that will praise the good fruits of Catholicism in the history of the Philippines?

Calm down brother. Your impatience reflects how you are moulded in your practice of your religion.

i never said anything about you using such sites. read my post again. my comments were general, not directed at anyone specific.

secondly, i am calm. you seem to read a lot into things and make a lot of assumptions as well… :nope:

lastly, regarding what i would expect from practicing muslims regarding the history of the philippines is an honest account of what transpired, without any bias - for the muslim is obligated to speak the truth - whether it is for or against them.

 

[Booklover]

r.gonzales:

no, not offended at all. to me, you are disbelievers - and that’s not pulling any punches. according to my beliefs, anyone who associates anything with God - whether it be a son, or an equal of any sort to His divinity is a disbeliever. anyone who rejects the prophethood and messengership of muhammad is a disbeliever.

Well, you finally showed your fangs! That comment of yours sounds very much like a threat.

Answer me this question. Does the fact that according to your beliefs we are disbelievers, give you Muslims the right to kill us? Like the Arab servant who killed the monks he worked for because his leaders told him to “kill the infidels”?

 

[r.gonzales]

Booklover:

Well, you finally showed your fangs! That comment of yours sounds very much like a threat.

threat? what the heck are you talking about? the more i read your emotion filled reactionary posts, the more i want to ignore them… :nope:

you have a lot of misconceptions and prejudices against muslims that you expose everytime you post

Booklover:

Answer me this question. Does the fact that according to your beliefs we are disbelievers, give you Muslims the right to kill us? Like the Arab servant who killed the monks he worked for because his leaders told him to “kill the infidels”?

what the heck are you talking about?

i wonder if you’ve read anything legit about islamic beliefs or if all you’ve been force fed are lies and anti-islamic propaganda.

 

[Booklover]

r.gonzales:

threat? what the heck are you talking about? the more i read your emotion filled reactionary posts, the more i want to ignore them… :nope:

you have a lot of misconceptions and prejudices against muslims that you expose everytime you post

what the heck are you talking about?

i wonder if you’ve read anything legit about islamic beliefs or if all you’ve been force fed are lies and anti-islamic propaganda.

As usual you resort to evasions! No Mr. Gonzalez, I am under no illusions about Islam! Islam is the religion of fear and terror. You keep saying I’m prejudiced against Muslims, it’s your religion that I don’t like and for that reason I cannot trust Muslims.

Fatuma said in one post: we try to love what God loves and hate what God hates". When I said that the only thing that God hates is sin and asked what she meant by: we try to hate what God hates", not one Muslim on this forum answered. I find that very telling!

 

[Booklover]

r.gonzales:

no, not offended at all. to me, you are disbelievers - and that’s not pulling any punches. according to my beliefs, anyone who associates anything with God - whether it be a son, or an equal of any sort to His divinity is a disbeliever. anyone who rejects the prophethood and messengership of muhammad is a disbeliever./QUOTE]

This is my final post to you. ****

GLORY BE TO THE FATHER, Who by his almighty power and love created me, making me in the image and likeness of God.

GLORY BE TO THE SON, Who by his Precious Blood delivered me from hell, and opened for me the gates of Heaven.

GLORY BE TO THE HOLY SPIRIT, Who has sanctified me in the sacrament of Baptism, and continues to sanctify by the graces I receive daily from His bounty.

**GLORY BE TO THE THREE ADORABLE PERSONS OF THE HOLY TRINITY, NOW AND FOREVER. **

 

[r.gonzales]

Booklover:

This is my final post to you.

fine by me.

Allah says in the Quran, "say: ‘o people of the Book, come to an even word between us and between you, that we will not worship except Allah while not associating anything with Him, and not take one another as lords before Allah.’ so if they turn away, then say: ‘bear witness that we are muslims.’" (3:64)

and He says, “say: o disbelievers, i do not worship what you worship and you do not worship what i worship. i am not a worshiper of what you worship and you are not worshipers of what i worship. for you is your religion and for me is a my religion.” (109:1-6)

 

[hlgomez]

Allah says in the Quran, "say: ‘o people of the Book, come to an even word between us and between you, that we will not worship except Allah while not associating anything with Him, and not take one another as lords before Allah.’ so if they turn away, then say: ‘bear witness that we are muslims.’" (3:64)

R.Gonzales,

See how your Quran misleads people? We keep telling you we are not a people of the Book. Your signature keeps suggesting that many times. Purge your lies before posting anything about your Quran.

Pio

 

[r.gonzales]

See how your Quran misleads people? We keep telling you we are not a people of the Book. Your signature keeps suggesting that many times. Purge your lies before posting anything about your Quran.

gomez, whether you deny being people of the Book or not, the fact of the matter is, you claim to follow jesus and his teachings.

we believe jesus was revealed a Book called the Injeel, a book that is included amongst the other Books of revelation that God sent to His prophets and messengers. for this reason, we call you (christians) and the jews people of the Book (meaning people who have received revelation from Allah). like it or not, this is our name for the two peoples of those two religions.

thus, i - along with other muslims - will continue to refer to both jews and christians as such. sorry if this upsets you, but the word of Allah comes before yours .

 

[hlgomez]

gomez, whether you deny being people of the Book or not, the fact of the matter is, you claim to follow jesus and his teachings.

We don’t claim to follow Jesus alone, but also we came to believe in Him.

**
we believe jesus was revealed a Book called the Injeel, a book that is included amongst the other Books of revelation that God sent to His prophets and messengers. for this reason, we call you (christians) and the jews people of the Book (meaning people who have received revelation from Allah). like it or not, this is our name for the two peoples of those two religions.

It is not whether we like it or not. It is how we are, not because we are the people of the book (the resoning of Muhammad), but because we are believers in Christ.

Pio**

 

[selvaraj]

we believe[/B] jesus was revealed a Book called the Injeel, a book that is included amongst the other Books of revelation that God sent to His prophets and messengers. for this reason, we call you (christians) and the jews people of the Book (meaning people who have received revelation from Allah). like it or not, this is our name for the two peoples of those two religions.

thus, i - along with other muslims - will continue to refer to both jews and christians as such. sorry if this upsets you, but the word of Allah comes before yours http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif .

Mr.Gonzales,
Then why your Hadeeth says this?

"The day of judgment will not arrive until Muslims fight Jews, and Muslim will kill Jews until the Jew hides behind a tree or a stone. Then the tree and the stone will say, 'Oh Muslim, oh, servant of God, this is a Jew behind me. Come and kill him.
Please explain.

In Christ,
selvaraj

 

[Booklover]

r.gonzales:

would you rather me post in tagalog or in arabic?

a tree is known by its fruits indeed… using this in an absolute sense, your religion doesn’t look like its hands are too clean either - or have you forgotten your religion’s tainted history? if you really want to go this route, i’m sure that there’s an abundance that can be said about the forced conversions, murders, rapes and plunderings of numerous countries’ peoples (too many to count really)… all in the name of christ, no less… and the list goes on… committed by the catholics - but then again, this isn’t the topic of discussion in this particular thread…

Really, Mr. Gonzales much more than that could be said of your violent religion and your prophet!

 

[Booklover]

r.gonzales:

thus, i - along with other muslims - will continue to refer to both jews and christians as such. sorry if this upsets you, but the word of Allah comes before yours .

I suppose in your eyes, that makes us inferior to you Muslims, right?

Mr. Gonzales, what you need is a spoonful of humility. Your pride is showing! And remember that pride goeth before a fall!

 

[hlgomez]

Quote:
Originally Posted by r.gonzales
*

thus, i - along with other muslims - will continue to refer to both jews and christians as such. sorry if this upsets you, but the word of Allah comes before yours .*

I suppose in your eyes, that makes us inferior to you Muslims, right?

Mr. Gonzales, what you need is a spoonful of humility. Your pride is showing! And remember that pride goeth before a fall!

Briefly and very well said.

That’s what distinguish a true Christian from a true Muslim.

We are ridiculed but yet remain humble, mocked but bear it all with humulity, threatened but continue to love. Blessed be the Name of the Lord!

Pio