muhammad: the illiterate prophet

[r.gonzales]

my, my… just couldn’t resist could you? or perhaps you forgot this :ehh: :

Booklover:

This is my final post to you.

Booklover:

Mr. Gonzales, what you need is a spoonful of humility. Your pride is showing! And remember that pride goeth before a fall!

classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. you know, there’s a very befitting line of arabic poetry that says, “she accused me of her own inequitites and then slowly danced away…” there’s also another saying in english, “when you point the finger at someone, remember there’s aways four pointing right back at you.”

hlgomez:

Briefly and very well said.

That’s what distinguish a true Christian from a true Muslim.

We are ridiculed but yet remain humble, mocked but bear it all with humulity, threatened but continue to love. Blessed be the Name of the Lord!

:clapping:

your humility and humbleness are about as genuine as silicone implants. i don’t exactly consider speaking down to people with the assumptions of ignorance, of being afraid, astray and in the dark as being humble. i don’t exactly think that those you speak to in this manner appreciate it too much either.

 

[hlgomez]

your humility and humbleness are about as genuine as silicone implants. i don’t exactly consider speaking down to people with the assumptions of ignorance, of being afraid, astray and in the dark as being humble. i don’t exactly think that those you speak to in this manner appreciate it too much either.

r.gonzales,

Add more, this is not enough.

I am nothing.

Pio

 

[r.gonzales]

hlgomez:

r.gonzales,

Add more, this is not enough.

I am nothing.

Pio

:clapping:

 

[Eetaq]

as my libyan father would say:

eib, eib ya r.gonzalez anta tawa zay hom.

you are no better than anyone who is attacking islam on this forum.

Keep a level head, and if its not a question or a misconception, dont reply to it.

Remind me of this too brothers and sisters. It is very hostile here as of late.

 

[r.gonzales]

Eetaq:

eib, eib ya r.gonzalez anta tawa zay hom.

عيب؟! لماذ؟ عندهم كبر عظيم جداً ما أقول إلا ما أرى منهم

Eetaq:

you are no better than anyone who is attacking islam on this forum.

who said anything about being better than anyone? people can’t take a bit of sarcasm it seems…

Eetaq:

Keep a level head, and if its not a question or a misconception, dont reply to it.

good advice, however, why is it that everyone assumes my head is not level? people sure like reading into things, that which just isn’t there. the tone you feel might be in writing doesn’t always indicate the actual tone of the person’s words when speaking.

 

[hlgomez]

Quote:
Originally Posted by hlgomez
*

r.gonzales,

Add more, this is not enough.

I am nothing.

Pio*

:clapping:

God bless you.

Pio

 

[r.gonzales]

hlgomez:

God bless you.

Pio

and may He guide you to the truth.

 

[ronald]

r.gonzales:

i’ll be able to try to find these things out once i get the book’s details.

but from what i remember of the book, the man who wrote it is still christian. and due to the fact that the vast majority of our peoples are catholic, i think it’s pretty safe to assume that he is too.

as for whether or not his sources are reliable, that’s up to you to determine. you brushed off the links i gave you without even giving their sources a second though as “islamic propaganda”… so who knows…

HI GONZALES, THERE IS ALWAYS AN AYAT FROM QUR’AN RECITED BEFORE AZAN MAGHRIB ON TELEVISION IN INDONESIA WHICH SAY " GOD ALMIGHTY PLEASE GIVE MUHAMMAD AN HONORED PLACE AS YOU PROMISE " SO…WHERE IS MUHAMMAD NOW? IF YOU SAY THIS IS A MISTRANSLATION IT MEANS ALL OF THE INDONESIAN MOSLEM ARE FOOLISH, BECAUSE THIS IS ON TELEVISION EVERY DAY.

 

[r.gonzales]

ronald:

HI GONZALES, THERE IS ALWAYS AN AYAT FROM QUR’AN RECITED BEFORE AZAN MAGHRIB ON TELEVISION IN INDONESIA WHICH SAY " GOD ALMIGHTY PLEASE GIVE MUHAMMAD AN HONORED PLACE AS YOU PROMISE " SO…WHERE IS MUHAMMAD NOW? IF YOU SAY THIS IS A MISTRANSLATION IT MEANS ALL OF THE INDONESIAN MOSLEM ARE FOOLISH, BECAUSE THIS IS ON TELEVISION EVERY DAY.

why hello there, ronald.

what’s with all the caps? don’t you know that in internet talk, that’s considered to be yelling? :tsktsk:

what is this “ayah” you speak of? bring the “ayah” in arabic so i can tell you if it really is a verse from the Quran. then we can proceed from there…

btw, what does this have to do with prophet muhammad being illiterate or not?

oh, and btw, just because it’s on t.v. doesn’t make it right, or even true.

 

[hlgomez]

Quote:
Originally Posted by hlgomez
*God bless you.

Pio*

and may He guide you to the truth.

Amen. The Truth is a person, not a something–His name is Jesus Christ.

Pio

 

[Preacher]

ronald:

HI GONZALES, THERE IS ALWAYS AN AYAT FROM QUR’AN RECITED BEFORE AZAN MAGHRIB ON TELEVISION IN INDONESIA WHICH SAY " GOD ALMIGHTY PLEASE GIVE MUHAMMAD AN HONORED PLACE AS YOU PROMISE " SO…WHERE IS MUHAMMAD NOW? IF YOU SAY THIS IS A MISTRANSLATION IT MEANS ALL OF THE INDONESIAN MOSLEM ARE FOOLISH, BECAUSE THIS IS ON TELEVISION EVERY DAY.

Hi there

In order for a Muslim to answer you appropriately, you must quote that Ayah, if there is any? Because I doubt that you possess the capacity to understand what is that?

Regarding your question where is Muhammad (SAW)? He is at the same place where Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Joseph, Jacob, Isaac, and all other Biblical Prophets are. So whatever you think of that, you should apply to all those Biblical Prophets, right?

Please quote the “alleged” Ayah, and we will take it from there. A mere statement is not acceptable for a rationale and reasoned dialoge.

Regards
Preacher

 

[r.gonzales]

since our new friend rodrigo seems to think that he has new arguments for this topic, i thought i’d bring back this thread, since it already has much of what needs to be said.

i’ll address this first point, because it’s going to take some time to dig up the original arabic for the various hadeeths quoted by rodrigo (the references aren’t the common ones found in the standard prints for saheeh al-bukhaaree).
Rodrigo Bivar:

The Quran itself term the Arabs of the time al-Ummiyyiina - this means unlettered as in Verse 62:2, Abdullah Yusuf Ali writes: “The Unlettered: as applied to a people, it refers to the Arabs, in comparison with the People of the Book…”

first, let’s take a look at the verse in question. Allah says, “he is the one sent among the unlettered people, a messenger from them reciting His verses to them, purifying them (i.e., the unlettered people) and teaching them the Book (i.e., the Quran) and the wisdom (i.e., the sunnah) and surely, previously, they used to be in manifest misguidance.”

let us now look at what the Quranic commentators said about this verse, particularly the word ummiyyeen - unlettered people.
at-tabaree says, “they are the arabs, and we have clarified in what has passed the meaning for why illiterate is said about the illiterate one.” and previous to this, at-tabaree said regarding 2:78, “it is meant by unlettered people (ummiyyeen), those who do not write, nor read.”

al-baghawee says, “meaning, the arabs who were an illiterate nation, they did not write, nor read.”

tafseer al-jalaalain has, “the arabs. and the unlettered one is whoever do not write, nor read a book.”

al-qurtubee says, “the unlettered ones are the arabs, all of them; whoever of them wrote and whoever didn’t write because they were not the people of the Book. and it is said: the unlettered ones are those who do not write, and the quraish were like that.”

 

[Edris]

ronald:

HI GONZALES, THERE IS ALWAYS AN AYAT FROM QUR’AN RECITED BEFORE AZAN MAGHRIB ON TELEVISION IN INDONESIA WHICH SAY " GOD ALMIGHTY PLEASE GIVE MUHAMMAD AN HONORED PLACE AS YOU PROMISE " SO…WHERE IS MUHAMMAD NOW? IF YOU SAY THIS IS A MISTRANSLATION IT MEANS ALL OF THE INDONESIAN MOSLEM ARE FOOLISH, BECAUSE THIS IS ON TELEVISION EVERY DAY.

This is not a verse, it’s a supplication. The highest rank in paradise is a place known as Al-Waseela (the means). The Prophet pbuh said that Al-Waseela will be given to only one slave from all humanity, and I hope I’ll be that slave. So he told the companions when you hear the call for the prayer, repeat after the Mua’then and then say “God Almighty please give Muhammad Al-Waseelata (the means) Wal-Fadeela (The Honored Place) which you have promised”.

This Honored Place which is called Al-Waseela is in Paradise (i.e in the afterlife) and not in this life.

 

[cute2904]

Edris:

The Prophet pbuh said that Al-Waseela will be given to only one slave from all humanity

Aha…and that would be Mother Theresa from Calcuta

and I hope I’ll be that slave.

One slave only Edris and its already been filled with her

So he told the companions when you hear the call for the prayer, repeat after the Mua’then and then say “God Almighty please give Muhammad Al-Waseelata (the means) Wal-Fadeela (The Honored Place) which you have promised”.

Well well if you pray for Muhammad… means you are not sure that he is saved as he’s a prophet of allah?..

 

[r.gonzales]

here’s my reply to rodrigo’s post about prophet muhammad’s alleged literacy in the other thread. much of the hadeeths you posted have been dealt with here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=754686&postcount=7
Rodrigo Bivar:

No. 1756

hate it as much as you want buddy rodrigo, shoddy translations are always going to be an issue. the text of this hadeeth reads, “we do not have anything except Allah’s book and this saheefah from the prophet, may Allah send greeting and peace upon him…” the word saheefah means page, paper, leaf. there is no indication that the prophet wrote on it himself. the hadeeth simply says that it was “from” him. this hadeeth doesn’t support your futile claims.
Rodrigo Bivar:

No. 65

dealt with in the post i linked to at the beginning of this post.
Rodrigo Bivar:

No. 4214
No. 4455

see my post here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1106403&postcount=120 particularly the part about the word “qiraa’ah”.
Rodrigo Bivar:

No. 5374

yet another example of incorrect translation. the text of the hadeeth actually says, “the prophet, may Allah send greeting and peace upon him, used to say in the ruqyah (incantation): dust of our land and saliva of some of us our ill is cured by our Lord’s permission.” the word used in the arabic is yaqool - he says, not yaqra’ - he reads.
Rodrigo Bivar:

No. 2747

dealt with in the post i linked to at the beginning of this post.
Rodrigo Bivar:

No. 2749

see explanation given under the comment to “sahih bukhari 1.65” in the post i linked to at the beginning.
Rodrigo Bivar:

No. 4107

see explanation given under the comment to “sahih bukhari 1.65” in the post i linked to at the beginning.
Rodrigo Bivar:

No. 115

see explanation given under the comment to “sahih bukhari 1.65” in the post i linked to at the beginning.
Rodrigo Bivar:

To claim the Quran is divine because Muhammad was illiterate is to claim Muhammad was stupid. Even children know how to read and write. The Quraysh may have been 7th century barbarians but that does not mean they were uncultured. Poetry was much admired and highly popular at that stage.

illiteracy does not necessitate stupidity. and that’s refuted by the fact that there are many intelligent people in this world who never learned how to read or write, yet they are brilliant in mathematics, at simple logic and problem solving. your comment regarding children knowing how to read and write is not a proof for anything. as well, to call the arabs barbarians and cultured is contradicting yourself, as one of the definitions for the word barbarian is “uncultured”. as well, anyone who looks into the history of the arabs will find that they were a very cultured people and were far from a primitive civilization, especially when you compare them to much of western europe during that same time period.

 

[Edris]

cute2904:

Aha…and that would be Mother Theresa from Calcuta
One slave only Edris and its already been filled with her
Well well if you pray for Muhammad… means you are not sure that he is saved as he’s a prophet of allah?..

 

[chipusa]

Jesus Christ is God. God is three in one. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Jews claimed Abraham as their father and that they worshipped “God” as well. Jesus told them that their father was the devil. Reject Jesus Christ as Lord (Adonai, God) and you reject God. Period. That’s Scripture, regardless of what Vatican 2 says.

 

[chipusa]

Hebrews 1:6 God Himself calls His Son “Theos”. “But of the Son He says, Your throne, O God (Theos) is forever and ever.”

 

[chipusa]

Muhammad was as lost as a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat. He was no prophet any more than I am an eggplant. If he considered Jesus Christ as no more than a prophet, then I weep for his soul.

 

[chipusa]

Muhammad was as lost as a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat. He was no prophet any more than I am an eggplant. If he considered Jesus Christ as no more than a prophet, then I weep for his soul.