Muhammad, the last prophet and messenger according to the Quran?

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You most welcome Cyber Knight. If in one side you are questioning the teaching of Vatican, on one side I still curious why Vatican is stop short, or silence to be precise, on Mohammad and the Quran. Nostra Aetate documents clearly stated that the Church is acknowledging all righteousness in all religions and beliefs. But the fact that they are silence, it just intrigue me. Don’t you think?
 
Vatican silence about what? righteousness Quran and other beliefs and you need vatican to pro active saying that they also good beliefs as good as catholic or what?
 
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ambrosius:
I mean silence especially on Mohammad and the Quran.
errmmm… I think you should send a letter and ask Pope Ratz 😃 I mean pope Ben XVI
 
Cyber Knight, you do have great sense of humor. I like that. Thanks for the discussion.
 
I do have a good sense of humor (people say so!!) but seriously, if you have some thing to ask then email him like what Im going to do. Or do you want to put your questions about Muhammad and Quran together with my letter?😉
 
Cyber Knight:
Faith101 and Gonzales, I believe what we have seen and heard of your bretheren done killing people in the name of religion. You cant blame the media is wrong. Media is just passing through the information.
as i said, every religion has adherents that do things contrary to their religion’s tenets. it’s a fact that sometimes people do these things in the name of their religion claiming that it allows it. and as i said, christianity is no different.

two books you should read to give you an understanding of how the western media, and pretty much most western thought, views islam and the east in general, “covering islam” & “orientalism”, both by edward w. said (pronounced sa’eed), a christian arab-american scholar. very interesting works, to say the least.
Cyber Knight:
If you think thats wrong why no one try to have dialogue with those extrimist muslims in palestine. You keep silent about it because you think this is right to do in order to fight the jews.
and what makes you think that muslims aren’t trying to have dialogues with these extremists and warn against their extremism? are you really that naive to think that muslims upon the correct beliefs and methodological approach to islam would leave these people unattended to? perhaps venturing into some alternative media sources (i.e., other than those that are cnn and fox fed outlets) might show you what’s really going on…
 
Chapter 2 of the Catechism, Paragraph 67 states:
Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.

That’s the polite way of saying Mohammed was a false prophet and the Koran is not a revelation from God. The Church tries to emphasize the few truths that managed to find there way in there.

God did give “prophet tests” in both the Old and New Testaments so that people would not fall for false prophets. Mohammed utterly fails those tests. Muslims won’t accept that fact of course. You’ve just got to love the twisted double standard in the Koran…If you don’t believe Mohammed, ask the Christians and Jews because his message confirms their scriptures. Then when people obviously did ask Christians and Jews, Mohammed turns around and “reveals” no, don’t believe them, they corrupted their scriptures and are liars. Even the verse about Christians and Jews studying the same scriptures is inaccurate. According to the Koran itself, it’s not to be believed. There’s some verse in there about if it really wasn’t a revelation from Allah, it would be full of contradictions. Unfortunately, Muslims are so unable to hear the truth about Mohammed that they wouldn’t know a contradiction if it jumped up and slapped them in the face.

Keep praying for them and all those who suffer at the hands of their religion.
 
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ambrosius:
You most welcome Cyber Knight. If in one side you are questioning the teaching of Vatican, on one side I still curious why Vatican is stop short, or silence to be precise, on Mohammad and the Quran. Nostra Aetate documents clearly stated that the Church is acknowledging all righteousness in all religions and beliefs. But the fact that they are silence, it just intrigue me. Don’t you think?
Dear bro Ambrosius,

Would you mind to tell us why are you intrigued on the Vatican’s silence on this matter? I think you may have something there that you want to say regarding this, thus I should be grateful if you could kindly tell why are you curious?

Thanks.
 
Ambrosius, I would have thought that the Vatican remains silent (in modern days) on Mohammed and the Quran for the sake of not wanting to antagonise the Muslims. The goal of the Vatican is to increase dialogue with other religions: both Christian and non-Christian. We’re hardly going to be able to do that if we go around shouting “Martin Luther is the anti-Christ!”* The best way to engage in dialogue is to be polite, patient, and to emphasise the similarities in our religions rather than the differences.

*disclaimer: not my own personal belief… Just an example 🙂
 
Indeed. From my personal experience, a proper dialogue between Catholics and Islam in Indonesia has been through a lots of mines, however, it is growing and heading to a positive direction since much of the dialogue is through the so-called “liberal muslim” represented by the likes of the late Dr. Nurcholis Madjid, the former President Adurachman Wahid, Uli Abdallah ( from Liberal Islam Network).

The government still “cooking” to remove any discrimination, especially in regards to build churches, temples, viharas, etc.

Only in this spirit of two ways dialogue that an understanding and tolerance can be nurtured and developed.

The only remaining problem for Islam in Indonesia is in fact in dealing with the so-called hardliners. For the past two months or so there has been a road show from Department of Religious Affair (yes, Indonesia has this department) to Islamic boarding school in order to socialize a different face of Islam. The fact that most Bali bombers were graduated from Islamic boarding school says for it self.

What I said about the Vatican being silence is more political than theological. I do believe - put theological aside - the role of Vatican in global geopolitics is in fact has been able to open up a new perspective on dialogue with various religions especially Islam. Although I don’t have a proper statistic, Islamic movement is growing well in the West - and this, of course, in the future will be seen as something that will influence the direction of Western civilization that has been known have its roots - amongst other thing - by Christianity.

The potrayal of Mohammad is also seen in different light. Like an Ahmadiyah movement beside put Mohammad as its figure but it also reverred to its founder Gulan Mirza. A sufi movement called Syech Siti Djenar has its founder executed by others Indonesian Fathers of Islam due to his statement that not only Mohammad is a prophet but God also within Djenar.

A strict monotheism in Islam reminds me lots with Judaism, and Mohammad embraced this concept. For me he is simply a man that brought a new light to his people in the midst of domination of the Monophysite movement in 6th century Arab. I can understand Mohammad confusion on the Trinity, let alone to acknowledge Jesus is God - although he reverred Jesus as the Word of God.

I cannot say that Mohammad is the last prophet because what he claimed to be “Islamic revelation” in the form of the Quran is nothing but a set of book consisting similarities with the Old Testament. Also his view in rejecting Trinity (may be because he doesn’t understand what the concept is all about, may be he thinks the Catholics worshipped three god) is enough for me to see him as a person with more emphasize on the fiqh or the Laws based on a strict monotheism perspective.

There are many stories on how he actually tolerated the Jews and the Christian during his reign. His model of governing is called “the Medinah Charter” It’s supposed to be the concept or stereotype for Islamic countries. Let the Moslem claim him to be the last prophet, it’s up to them to be able to justified it but if they want to tell me (in order to convert me like many time happened before in my experience) then I said: Convince me that the so-called Quran is an inspired book. Under whose authority this book is called holy, then we talk about who Mohammad is.
 
Good point ambrosius. I dont mind whatever faith is as long as not spreading hatred and devided people into ummah and kafirs. Thats enough for me to know what Islam is all about. Goodluck with islamic liberal in indonesia. I wonder ‘smart’ people there would decide something worth for interfaith dialogue.
 
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ambrosius:
A strict monotheism in Islam reminds me lots with Judaism, and Mohammad embraced this concept. For me he is simply a man that brought a new light to his people in the midst of domination of the Monophysite movement in 6th century Arab. I can understand Mohammad confusion on the Trinity, let alone to acknowledge Jesus is God - although he reverred Jesus as the Word of God.
Who are you referring to by monophysite movement?

What do you mean by “I can understand Mohammad confusion on the Trinity, let alone to acknowledge Jesus is God - although he reverred Jesus as the Word of God.”?
 
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ambrosius:
Only in this spirit of two ways dialogue that an understanding and tolerance can be nurtured and developed.



What I said about the Vatican being silence is more political than theological. I do believe - put theological aside - the role of Vatican in global geopolitics is in fact has been able to open up a new perspective on dialogue with various religions especially Islam. Although I don’t have a proper statistic, Islamic movement is growing well in the West - and this, of course, in the future will be seen as something that will influence the direction of Western civilization that has been known have its roots - amongst other thing - by Christianity.



A strict monotheism in Islam reminds me lots with Judaism, and Mohammad embraced this concept. For me he is simply a man that brought a new light to his people in the midst of domination of the Monophysite movement in 6th century Arab. I can understand Mohammad confusion on the Trinity, let alone to acknowledge Jesus is God - although he reverred Jesus as the Word of God.

I cannot say that Mohammad is the last prophet because what he claimed to be “Islamic revelation” in the form of the Quran is nothing but a set of book consisting similarities with the Old Testament. Also his view in rejecting Trinity (may be because he doesn’t understand what the concept is all about, may be he thinks the Catholics worshipped three god) is enough for me to see him as a person with more emphasize on the fiqh or the Laws based on a strict monotheism perspective. .
I can understand the Vatican’s need for diplomacy and political correctness as she is also a political entity.

But this is an internet forum and many of the issues discussed here are theological. In my opinion it is indeed a disservice for this forum if participants here are being constraint from bringing legitimate questions for fear of antagonizing our Muslim friends.

I go into this forum because I thought I can discuss with Muslims topics and questions that I might not be able to bring up with my Muslim friends in real life. It’s quite obvious there are many doctrines in each other’ religion that we don’t agree with or even dislike. It’s has been an eye opener to be able to bring those up and hear Muslims’ argument and reaction. And I thought it is as much for them too. I think the forum rules are sufficient to put us in line and to avoid being uncivil and abusive.

Go ahead and be politically correct in practical relation with Muslims. That’s just common sense. But sometimes Christians suffer from this inability to confront issues with frank opinions and to stand up for the truth of Jesus Christ. I would put caution into this line of approach if we really want to explore and learn indepth the other religion. And some of the facts therein may not be very pleasant.
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ambrosius:
There are many stories on how he actually tolerated the Jews and the Christian during his reign.
Really? That might be so, but from the many informations here from both sides (the Christians and Muslims), they are not very convincing. I wish he did but there are more incidents to show that he was not very tolerant of his enemies and oppositions, especially when his position was stronger.
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ambrosius:
His model of governing is called “the Medinah Charter” It’s supposed to be the concept or stereotype for Islamic countries. Let the Moslem claim him to be the last prophet, it’s up to them to be able to justified it but if they want to tell me (in order to convert me like many time happened before in my experience) then I said: Convince me that the so-called Quran is an inspired book. Under whose authority this book is called holy, then we talk about who Mohammad is.
Yes, I think that’s one of the good approaches.
 
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Plato:
Well . . . can you recommend a book by written by a Muslim that has a *balanced *perspective?

Plato
Inside Islam: A Guide for Catholics by Daniel Ali and Robert Spencer.

Ali is a convert to Catholicism from Islam and does a great job of presenting his former faith in an easy to understand manner which lacks polemics (which is not to say he doesn’t point out its problems).

Gray Mouser
 
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