Muhammad.

[hasantas]

…

He then escaped to Medina and became a totally different person. It seems that power corrupted him somehow.

What do you think of him?

Can you say any example for corruption of Muhammed?

 

[christelijk]

Can you say any example for corruption of Muhammed?

I would have to agree that Mohammad started out as a decent guy but then he lusted after power and women. The greater his followers and power the more he lusted.

If you read the Quran notice first that all of the verses are not in chronological order. Then notice that all the peaceful verses are the first chapters and the later verses are very violent. Mohammad seems to change verse on a whim, or lust.

 

[christelijk]

You claim as if Gabriel appeared to Muhammed(sav) only in cave? That last until His death in different places and times. As a first Muhammed (sav) get afraid but the other times He get used to and even talk to Gabriel like as a friend and sometimes read Qur’an to each others. Some Sahabas could see Gabriel when Gabriel bring revelation. İf Sahabas did not see all that they would never believe in Muhammed.

Is that the Gabriel you know from the Bible…???

I do not know much about Gabriel in Bible. But Gabriel came to all prophets with revelations.

That is true. Gabriel did not say to Muhammed to get afraid! Gabriel provide Muhammed to become calm and they later become as friends. Also Muhammed were so used to Gabriel when coming of Gabriel took a long time Muhammed looked forward for Gabriel.

Gabriel squeezed Muhammed to get he calm as one hold other shoulders to get him calm. And when Gabriel squeezed Muhammed to give Him revelation.

İs there any wrong with those? Do not forget prophets are humanbeing they are not angel or god! Moses were a shepherd for a time too. Abraham had two wifes. Some prophet were joiner some were dress maker etc.

Do you know the stuations of women before İslam in that peninsula. Girls were buried and woman had no right for legacy. And İslam gave many rights to women.

When Gabriel came to people in the Bible they were reassured if that person was frightened.

Also as far as I can remember in the Bible if someone spoke to GOD they were given a way of proving it. Mohammad had only his say so.

Women pre-Islam had all kinds of rights. Mohammad’s wife was a business woman. She inherited her father’s business.

Would Khadija have inherited the business after Islam or only her brothers?

 

[hasantas]

While he was traveling with his uncle with the caravan trades, he wasn’t making that much money.

He then heard that a wealthy lady by the name of Khadija was looking for a merchant to drive her caravan goods and sell around the Arabian area.

She was 40 years old and a widow, but very wealthy but also came from a wealthy family.

Mohammad was 25 years old and he accepted the job.

He was married to her for 25 years and then she died.

During this time within this marriage, Muhammad had a monogamous life with his wife.

It was after his wife died he had all of these “so called revelations” of Allah allowing him, and ONLY him to take as many wives as he wished.

So, with the death of his wife, Muhammad acquired all of her wealth.

That’s when he became a powerful man in his community - and the rest is history…

Marriages of prophet Muhammed confused many minds who does not know the stuation at all. İt seems a good case to defame Muhammed. İndeed there are several benefits and aims in marriages. Some is to guard woman. Some to call women’s tribe to İslam. Muhammed were married with a woman untill fifties. Muhammed were not a king or did not gather lucres. Muhammed spent all His worths to spread faith. Sometimes He could not find food for days. When Muhammed died He were not rich. İn that times all Arabs can make many marriages if they were rich. There were no limits for that. Many men had several marriages not only prophet. İf prophet Muhammed had marriages for lust He would not wait until fifty. His wife were so old and there were no any obstacle for Muhammed to get married. That issue can be explained in a good way but my English is not enough.

 

[dronald]

Marriages of prophet Muhammed confused many minds who does not know the stuation at all. İt seems a good case to defame Muhammed. İndeed there are several benefits and aims in marriages. Some is to guard woman. Some to call women’s tribe to İslam. Muhammed were married with a woman untill fifties. Muhammed were not a king or did not gather lucres. Muhammed spent all His worths to spread faith. Sometimes He could not find food for days. When Muhammed died He were not rich. İn that times all Arabs can make many marriages if they were rich. There were no limits for that. Many men had several marriages not only prophet. İf prophet Muhammed had marriages for lust He would not wait until fifty. His wife were so old and there were no any obstacle for Muhammed to get married. That issue can be explained in a good way but my English is not enough.

To be fair, Muhammad broke his own rule and married more women than Islam permits.

Let’s not also forget the sex slaves.

 

[hasantas]

Not sure what you are talking about…

I stated that the wealth is what made him powerful and he used this power to uproot the Arabian region.

So you claim that Muhammed seized Arap peninsula with assets of Khadija! That is very funny! Converse many Muslims were so poor that they could not defend themselves so they had to migrate. Pagans attacked Muslims with every ways and means. Muhammed seized hearts and step by step people understood the light and facts which Muhammed showed. The reality and morality of Muhammed seized but not his worth. İf some is not reliable no one will follow him. Remember although Jesus performed many miracles and facts but there were be always rejection.

 

[hasantas]

Yeah. It’s also my understanding that he thought that this might be a demon rather than an angel, and that his wife had to convince him otherwise.

Maybe he was more perceptive at first than his wife gave him crredit for.

Maybe it was after he gave himself over to that apparition that he started to become convinced. Or, maybe it was after he was told that it was OK for him to take other women sexually, or when he was told it was ok for him to pillage. THAT is the kind of god someone would want to follow if they were making up a god, or if they wanted to seduce someone into following a false god.

So a demon teached to believe in God, do good deeds, worship God, have high morality! And that demon came for about 23 yeras and tempted Muhammed! So Muhammed became the highest morality man on the world! That demon teached all facts about faith and other prophets. That demon teached about Heavens, hell and others. That demon tempted all men close and around Muhammed. That demon tempts billions people know! I think that demon(Gabriel) will catch you, be careful!

 

[hasantas]

To be fair, Muhammad broke his own rule and married more women than Islam permits.

Let’s not also forget the sex slaves.

That verse revealed before 3 years of death of Muhammed. But no one can get married with prophet’s wifes it is Haram. So prophet did not divorce them. İf prophet divorced them they would be free to get married with other but that is Haram. A 60 years prophet is not sex slave. Everyone must be respectful for a prophet even if he does not believe that Muhammed is a prophet because billions believe. Have ever heard that a Muslim say any bad thing about Jesus. That is very big sin wich our prophet Muhammed teached us.

 

[dronald]

That verse revealed before 3 years of death of Muhammed. But no one can get married with prophet’s wifes it is Haram. So prophet did not divorce them. İf prophet divorced them they would be free to get married with other but that is Haram. A 60 years prophet is not sex slave. Everyone must be respectful for a prophet even if he does not believe that Muhammed is a prophet because billions believe. Have ever heard that a Muslim say any bad thing about Jesus. That is very big sin wich our prophet Muhammed teached us.

I’m saying Muhammad had sex slaves and allowed other Muslims to have sex slaves.

 

[jakasaki]

You claim as if Gabriel appeared to Muhammed(sav) only in cave? That last until His death in different places and times. As a first Muhammed (sav) get afraid but the other times He get used to and even talk to Gabriel like as a friend and sometimes read Qur’an to each others. Some Sahabas could see Gabriel when Gabriel bring revelation. İf Sahabas did not see all that they would never believe in Muhammed.

Is that the Gabriel you know from the Bible…???

I do not know much about Gabriel in Bible. But Gabriel came to all prophets with revelations.
… snip

I claimed as Islam states that Mohammad **first **encountered what he thought was Gabriel in a cave.

No one in Mohammads life has seen “Gabriel” - not even his companions

And no, Gabriel did not come to all prophets with revelations.

 

[jakasaki]

…snip

Do you know the stuations of women before İslam in that peninsula. Girls were buried and woman had no right for legacy. And İslam gave many rights to women.

If women had “no right for legacy”, how did then Khadija become wealthy, had her own caravan business, had people working under her…???

Islam took all the rights away from women and replaced it with “submission” to their men.

 

[jakasaki]

Marriages of prophet Muhammed confused many minds who does not know the stuation at all. İt seems a good case to defame Muhammed. İndeed there are several benefits and aims in marriages. Some is to guard woman. Some to call women’s tribe to İslam. Muhammed were married with a woman untill fifties. Muhammed were not a king or did not gather lucres. Muhammed spent all His worths to spread faith. Sometimes He could not find food for days. When Muhammed died He were not rich. İn that times all Arabs can make many marriages if they were rich. There were no limits for that. Many men had several marriages not only prophet. İf prophet Muhammed had marriages for lust He would not wait until fifty. His wife were so old and there were no any obstacle for Muhammed to get married. That issue can be explained in a good way but my English is not enough.

• The only reason Mohammad was married to Khadija only was because she would not allow another woman. Khadija, was not an ordinary peasant, she came from a wealthy noble family.
• Mohammad did have lust for women and he waited until he was 50 was because his wife of 25 died which gave him the freedom to do as he wished.

 

[LtTony]

So the issue is that he had too many wives? But so did many in the OT - are they all corrupt?

Or is the issue about money? Do you think he should have given away his wife’s money after her death?

Clearly Muhammad was no Jesus, but we should probably judge him according to what is written in the Koran, not according to who he married.

Christianity had not been very successful with the Arab tribes before that.

Your points about wealth and wives are fair ones. But the last about Christianity (and probably Judaism) is just a broad generalization.

I think the objection to the number of wives (when compared with the OT), is that only Mohammad could have more than four. The number was restricted for everyone other than Mohammad.

And I think the point the other poster was making about the wealth is that Mohammad didn’t take his message outside his immediate friends and family until he had it. Whether that is a legitimate point or not is another thing.

…so you think that people who struggled to believe in a compassionate and Divine Jesus simply fell for this random made up fact by Muhammad’s wife?

Thousands simply gave up their lives in service to Muhammad just because His wife was trying to save face???

.

You suggest that people immediately began following Mohammad en masse. They didn’t. Numbers began when he got some power/influence through the money, started increasing when he began dividing up the spoils from caravan raids, and snowballed when he had the miltary advantage over other religions in the region.

 

[LtTony]

Some Sahabas could see Gabriel when Gabriel bring revelation. İf Sahabas did not see all that they would never believe in Muhammed.

That only happened once in 23 years, if I understand correctly.

If you read the Quran notice first that all of the verses are not in chronological order. Then notice that all the peaceful verses are the first chapters and the later verses are very violent. Mohammad seems to change verse on a whim, or lust.

Yes, things changed after he consolidated power in Medina.

Women pre-Islam had all kinds of rights. Mohammad’s wife was a business woman. She inherited her father’s business.

Would Khadija have inherited the business after Islam or only her brothers?

Excellent point.

 

[gabriel33]

Can you say any example for corruption of Muhammed?

You dont know islam.

I was Muslim
Now I am catholic

Muhammad had sex slaves and allowed other Muslims to have sex slaves.

 

[christelijk]

You dont know islam.

I was Muslim
Now I am catholic

Muhammad had sex slaves and allowed other Muslims to have sex slaves.

Happy to see you made it out of the violent death cult alive!! Stay safe!!

 

[Dan999]

Happy to see you made it out of the violent death cult alive!! Stay safe!!

Let’s not insult the religion. There can be debate without resorting to insults.

 

[Pythons]

I read how Muhammad came to get the first revelations and i must say the story is quite convincing. Before his first revelation, he was a merchant known as being trusthworthy, truthful, he even acquired a nickname for his trusthworthiness(al-Amin).
Muhammad started to spent many hours alone, speculating over the aspects of creation. He was concerned with the discrimination against women and others in Arabia, about the social unrest, fighting of tribes, and injustice. He then after spending hours praying and thinking, supposedly received his first revelations. He then preached and gained some followers.

He then escaped to Medina and became a totally different person. It seems that power corrupted him somehow.

What do you think of him?

Pushing prepubescent girls through a camel hair mattress is anything but trustworthy…
…Somehow the affirmation of his concerns over the treatment of women sounds almost sarcastic.
…I’m not sure what you are reading to come to those conclusions.

 

[christelijk]

Let’s not insult the religion. There can be debate without resorting to insults.

There are insults, then there are statements of fact. Islam has rules to kill apostates and Muslims say they love death. While it might seem as though I am insulting, I am just stating facts.
004.089 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

Who is a renegade?:
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 76, Number 586: Narrated Ibn Al-Musaiyab: The companions of the Prophet said, "Some men from my companions will come to my Lake-Fount and they will be driven away from it, and I will say, ‘O Lord, my companions!’ It will be said, 'You have no knowledge of what they innovated after you left: **they turned apostate as renegades (reverted from Islam). **

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 76, Number 587: Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "While I was sleeping, a group (of my followers were brought close to me), and when I recognized them, a man (an angel) came out from amongst (us) me and them, he said (to them), ‘Come along.’ I asked, ‘Where?’ He said, ‘To the (Hell) Fire, by Allah’ I asked, ‘what is wrong with them’ He said, 'They turned apostate as renegades after you left.’ Then behold! (Another) group (of my followers) were brought close to me, and when I recognized them, a man (an angel) came out from (me and them) he said (to them); Come along.’ I asked, “Where?’ He said, ‘To the (Hell) Fire, by Allah.’ I asked, What is wrong with them?’ He said, 'They turned apostate as renegades after you left. So I did not see anyone of them escaping except a few who were like camels without a shepherd.”

What do we do with the renegades/apostates?:
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57: Narrated 'Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'

**Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58: Narrated Abu Burda: **Abu Musa said, “I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash’ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah’s Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, 'O Abu Musa (O ‘Abdullah bin Qais!).’ I said, ‘By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.’ As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or ‘Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.’” The Prophet then sent Mu’adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu’adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu’adh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Muisa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Muisa requested Mu’adh to sit down but Mu’adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, “Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, ‘I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.’”

 

[openmind77]

There are insults, then there are statements of fact. Islam has rules to kill apostates and Muslims say they love death. While it might seem as though I am insulting, I am just stating facts.
004.089 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

Who is a renegade?:
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 76, Number 586: Narrated Ibn Al-Musaiyab: The companions of the Prophet said, "Some men from my companions will come to my Lake-Fount and they will be driven away from it, and I will say, ‘O Lord, my companions!’ It will be said, 'You have no knowledge of what they innovated after you left: **they turned apostate as renegades (reverted from Islam). **

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 76, Number 587: Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "While I was sleeping, a group (of my followers were brought close to me), and when I recognized them, a man (an angel) came out from amongst (us) me and them, he said (to them), ‘Come along.’ I asked, ‘Where?’ He said, ‘To the (Hell) Fire, by Allah’ I asked, ‘what is wrong with them’ He said, 'They turned apostate as renegades after you left.’ Then behold! (Another) group (of my followers) were brought close to me, and when I recognized them, a man (an angel) came out from (me and them) he said (to them); Come along.’ I asked, “Where?’ He said, ‘To the (Hell) Fire, by Allah.’ I asked, What is wrong with them?’ He said, 'They turned apostate as renegades after you left. So I did not see anyone of them escaping except a few who were like camels without a shepherd.”

What do we do with the renegades/apostates?:
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57: Narrated 'Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'

**Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58: Narrated Abu Burda: **Abu Musa said, “I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash’ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah’s Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, 'O Abu Musa (O ‘Abdullah bin Qais!).’ I said, ‘By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.’ As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or ‘Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.’” The Prophet then sent Mu’adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu’adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu’adh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Muisa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Muisa requested Mu’adh to sit down but Mu’adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, “Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, ‘I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.’”

I don’t know who Sahih Bukhari is, but you should stick to the Koran for judging Muhammad and leave out all the hadiths that came after him.

As for 004.089, I am not sure it applies to Christians and anyway the next Sura says ‘if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allah has opened no way for you against them’ . So it is saying, kill only those people who fight with you. The OT on the other hand, in some places, says kill everyone - man,woman, child, babies.