Muhammed or...

[Damascus]

But it’s not that simple.

Are you familiar with the case of Nicola Ghattas, the Orthodox Christian living in Beit Sahour?

Tell us about the case. I am sure there is a point to bringing it up.

 

[Damascus]

I didn’t lie about anything Damascus. I misunderstood you. I honestly thought you were saying that I’m in favor of people having sex with children.

This is what you said, right?

Because you talk about Jews a lot and so far, nothing nice to say of them.

 

[inJESUS]

Jesus. Which one?

Jesus of course. Forget who He is to Christians, Jesus as a teacher, Rabbi, human being is far better…i don’t even think it’s fair to compare Jesus to Muhammad. To me, it’s an insult

.

 

[inJESUS]

.

So for example, although Islam does not regard Jesus as the Son of God, not even his death and resurrection, Islam does nonetheless agree with Catholicism insofar as they believe that he returned to heaven and is there and will descend at the appointed time, end all wars, and bring peace to the world.

 

[inJESUS]

The Koran does criticize Christians in some ways, but even its complaints are mild.

 

[Damascus]

Carry one Damascus. If you wish to hate Muslims, that’s your choice-- not mine. I’m only stressing that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.

Apparently no one really wants to listen though.

Are you implying that I should consider Muslims my “brother” here?

When I use that word it is always “brother in Christ” otherwise it is a literal brother when I speak.

Muslims are not my “brother” Followers of Islam, muslim or not are NOT my “brother” and why on earth would I have any need to think of them as such?

They are merely my brothers in humanity as Gods creation.

The Catholic Church does not tell me they are my brother in connection with religion.
Where am I subject to judment?
Where?

 

[inJESUS]

Originally Posted by Mr. Ex Nihilo
Carry one Damascus. If you wish to hate Muslims, that’s your choice-- not mine. I’m only stressing that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.

Apparently no one really wants to listen though.

we must not hate muslims but we ( i personally at least) hate Islam because as the Bible says, it’s not from God since it contradicts most of what Jesus did and said if not all.

 

[inJESUS]

Preaching the good news is a duty we enjoy…preaching without “the fruit” is meaningless and we will be judged for it…but does it mean we should not reveal things as they are? did any of the apostles compromise the Truth? i don’t think so.
If i say Islam is “good” towards Christians and it must be taught as a “good” religion, i’ll be :

1- Lying cuz Islam is NOT good towards Christians
2- Denying Christ cuz Islam denies what Jesus did and said.

 

[Lillith]

Mr. Ex Nihilo,
I’ve been thinking about your posts. I agree with what you’re saying - but gosh, I am soooooo not there. I am just so very angry at Muslims for not speaking out against the fanatics that seem hell-bent on riding the world of everyone who isn’t Muslim. The fanatics may be a fringe - but they are powerful and I’m afraid of the world my children will grow up in because of them. And I can’t help but wonder if the silent Muslims are secretly glad that the fanatics are doing the dirty work?

This expresses exactly the way that I feel…thank you Carol Marie!

The part I emboldened is particularly bothersome to me, and a thought came to me that was quite disturbing while I was “trying to put myself in a radical Muslim frame of mind”

I have felt extreme in my thinking before, and these thoughts revolve around abortion. I see it as mass homicide, and a tragedy that I want to put an end to, a major frustration. When I think about this subject I become really angry. I do not condone a person using violence, but I also had to work really hard to feel sorry when an abortion clinic came under attack. Secretly, I understood why a person could get so worked up with anger that he might drive his car through a clinic…What lulls me back into our reality is forgiveness and the teachings of Jesus.

The huge difference between a radical Christian and a radical Muslem, Jesus demanded that we Love and forgive, and he would chastise the abortion clinic bomber, not reward him in Heaven. What Lulls a Muslim back into reality? Do we even have the same reality??

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

The OP is about:

Mohamed OR Jesus. Which one? Mr Ex Nillio seems to think it is not relevant.

On Post #42 Mr Ex Nillio takes a quote from Rodrigo Bivar and exoflare.

Rodrigos quote mentions the **“special” tax, subjugation, and the six year old wife of Mohamed. **Exoflares quote mentions the Polygamy, tax, and putting apostates to death.

(He later defends polygamy)

He then accuses these posters of not having looked at what Islam has to offer.

I am not sure why one needs address this in connection with those truthful charges.

I also fail to see how this helps address the OP. The OP is asking you to tell us all why you pick one or the other. The OP is not asking us to point out the benefits of both.
I think both Rodrigos and exoflares quotes are enough reason to say this is why Jesus is my choice. There are a zillion others but this is enough IMHO.

Then he procedes to tell us he is not a muslim. (which means nothing other than he is not of Muslim birth) No one asked him if he was a muslim. And it does not have anything to do with the quotes in this post.

Then he asks us if we are aware of what happens to Christians in Isreal under Jewish rule! Once again, no connection at all with these quotes or the OP. Jewish people are not even a factor in the OP Mohamed OR Jesus- why is mr ex nillio bringing them into this?

Remember again the points in Rodrigos and exoflares quotes-
Then he says MANY of the examples they raise could be applied to the Jewish authorities in Isreal too.

Hmmm. The funny thing is – he never proved that they were the same at all.

He only proves later that he spends a great deal of time dragging Isreal and the Jewish people into posts where they are not a subject of. This is a common tactic I have seen in some posters who deflect and draw attention from the truthful charges put on the table.

IE: subject: wife beaters or men who are not romantic which one?
I don’t like wife beaters its illegal and immoral and wrong
Wife beating is brutal unfair and criminal
Deflector: you have not given this wife beater a chance and tried to see what he has to offer
Sure, romantic is popular in the eyes of most but lets not forget that alcoholics have been nasty too! The same could be said for them!
But—this is not about alcoholics.
Deflector- Don’t you see how prejudiced you are? Now shut up and hear about all the bad alcoholics so you will forget all about wife beaters and get sidetracked.

Anyway, in post 48 he picks up steam and clearly shows his hidden agenda.
Since I see all he wants to do is talk about the Jewish people,
I ask a question about apostates (exoflare made a point there and he ignored it)
He takes advantage of this and brings in the OT Jewish people !
See post #63
**He even asks me “how do you reconcile passages like this in the Hewbrew Scriptures with our loving God within Christianity”? **

EASY- Because it was God condoning this and not ALLAH.

But, why would a Catholic ask me “how I can reconcile” God in the OT?

In post #53 he accuses me of hating Muslims. He shows no proof of this charge.

In post 54 he asks accuses me of asking him if he is in favor of having sex with children.

In post 59 he brings up the “intrinsically evil” stuff.

I never used those words. Why does he bring it up?

Later, note his response to exoflares in post #76- he mentions “ideal society” – Bingo!
Who coined this phrase people? I think you get the point here.

He is clever though. He makes a “mistake” in his quotes and apologizes.
This is only to give the appearance he is able to apologize.
On the other false charges he does not.
In Islam, you don’t have to tell the truth to a non believer.
In Christianity you do.
Tell the truth Mr Ex nillio.
What was post 53? The charge of me hating muslims?
First off, Are you really asking me if I hate muslims or Islam?
Which statements did I make that were false?

That’s not fair Damascus. In fact, you post here is simply unreasonable in the way you’ve mischaracterized me. I’m trying to tell I’m sorry I’ve hurt your feelings.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

correction : the Jesus Muslims await will “break the cross”. We are not talking about the same Jesus cuz the “Issa” Muslims await is the anti-Christ.

Actually, it’s not a correction to me because I’m already aware of this potential danger and I’ve already essentially explained this exact same thing in detail.

In fact, that’s why I said this way back in message # 3…
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

I’ll take being spiritually correct over being politically correct anyday. And Christ is so spiritually correct, even Muslims understand that he will return to make things right again-- albeit, probably not in the way they think it will happen.

And, to be fair, this is also why I already said this in message # 13…
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

When I look to the fundamentalist Arabic nations, I can clearly see that the Iblis has a deadly strangle-hold on these nations which only Christ himself can break. This kind of geo-political monotheistic religion is based in part upon a theocratic delusionary wish that has been long forgotten within most parts of the western world.

Taken in context, along with aspects of liberation theology and atheistic communism for example, the movement has a great potential to ultimately lead its adherants toward a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. In fact, as the Catechism clearly teaches, the deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history this ‘messianic hope’ which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment.

The Catholic Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come (often under the name of millenarianism). But she has especially rejected the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism-- which is basically what Islam amounts to whenever it listens to the mortal man Muhammad over the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I don’t think I can make this any clearer.

 

[Damascus]

Yes Mr Ex Nillo,

I see now after reading all your posts that I misunderstood your harsh treatment and mischarcterization of the Jewish people and their authorities.

I guess it was a gross misunderstanding on my part to read so much into your posts.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Are you implying that I should consider Muslims my “brother” here?

Yes. That’s exactly what I’m saying here.

Damascus:

When I use that word it is always “brother in Christ” otherwise it is a literal brother when I speak.

While I respect your own thoughts on this matter, I would hope you can understand why I also disagree with them from a Catholic perspective…

PART THREE - LIFE IN CHRIST - SECTION TWO -
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

CHAPTER TWO - “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF”

ARTICLE 5 - THE FIFTH COMMANDMENT

You shall not kill.54
You have heard that it was said to the men of old, “You shall not kill: and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.” But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment.55

2258 "Human life is sacred because from its beginning it involves the creative action of God and it remains for ever in a special relationship with the Creator, who is its sole end. God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end: no one can under any circumstance claim for himself the right directly to destroy an innocent human being."56

I. RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE

The witness of sacred history

2259 In the account of Abel’s murder by his brother Cain,57 Scripture reveals the presence of anger and envy in man, consequences of original sin, from the beginning of human history. Man has become the enemy of his fellow man. God declares the wickedness of this fratricide: "What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground. And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand."58

2260 The covenant between God and mankind is interwoven with reminders of God’s gift of human life and man’s murderous violence:

For your lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning. . . . Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.59

The Old Testament always considered blood a sacred sign of life.60 This teaching remains necessary for all time.

2261 Scripture specifies the prohibition contained in the fifth commandment: "Do not slay the innocent and the righteous."61 The deliberate murder of an innocent person is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human being, to the golden rule, and to the holiness of the Creator. The law forbidding it is universally valid: it obliges each and everyone, always and everywhere.

2262 In the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord recalls the commandment, "You shall not kill,"62 and adds to it the proscription of anger, hatred, and vengeance. Going further, Christ asks his disciples to turn the other cheek, to love their enemies.63 He did not defend himself and told Peter to leave his sword in its sheath.64

continued…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

…continued.

Now let’s return to your words here and compare them to the words found in the Catechism above…

Damascus:

Muslims are not my “brother” Followers of Islam, muslim or not are NOT my “brother” and why on earth would I have any need to think of them as such?

They are merely my brothers in humanity as Gods creation.

The Catholic Church does not tell me they are my brother in connection with religion.

This is incorrect.

You might not believe that a Muslim is your “brother” and you might wonder why you need to think of them as such.

But the Catholic Church, nonetheless, does speak of them as more than merely co-belief in the Creator-God. If reflects the plan of salvation too…

“The Church’s relationship with Muslims. ‘The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day”

Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 841,
quoting Lumen Gentium 16, November 21, 1964.

…and, they, along with us, adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.

The US Conference of Catholic Bishops in What Dialogue Means for Catholics and Muslims, illustrates what can happen when moderate Muslims welcome the challange to dialogue…

This means that we Catholics and Muslims in the United States, each with our own histories not just as Catholics and Muslims in this country, but also as Pakistanis, Indians, Kashmiris, Arabs, Irish, Italians, Germans, Mexicans, have an obligation to show Catholics and Muslims around the world that we can dialogue on religion. Our dialogue of culture in the United States, which has not always been a story of one success after another, does have this important success to talk about - that Catholics and Muslims can be friends and can talk to one another as believers.

And, consequently, Pope John Paul II repeated this statement even more clearly. For example, when addressing Muslim youths, the Pope said:

“We believe in the same God, the one and only God, the living God, the God who creates worlds and brings creatures to their perfection”

Damascus:

Where am I subject to judment?

Where?

We break the fifth commandment when we lash out, even with words, in anger, hatred, and vengeance.

 

[Damascus]

First off-

You are singling me out here.

I wonder why. I am reading all these posts here and the comments made about muslims and about Islam and you seem to be very focused on me.

My concern was your bashing the Jewish people here for no apparent reason.

Look at my first post to you.

You seem to take the opinion that I have bashed Islam.

You sir, have no response or excuse for bashing Jewish people, and you know, you make me wonder if you are singling them out too.

You make a lot of accusations of me and hate in connection to Muslims and Islam.

You have not proven your point that I have.

If your only victory in showing me “wrong” on the brother issue-

You have such a victory!

What about accusing me of hating muslims or Islam?

How can you make that assertation based on anything I said?

Are you judgemental here?

 

[Damascus]

Hate is a strong word and a strong indictment!

Who are you to accuse me of hate!

Slander!

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Yes Mr Ex Nillo,

I see now after reading all your posts that I misunderstood your harsh treatment and mischarcterization of the Jewish people and their authorities.

I guess it was a gross misunderstanding on my part to read so much into your posts.

What are you talking about?

I specifically said…

Consequently, many Christians were killed during this time because they would not fight alongside Kosiba. In other words, he persecuted Christians when they refused to support his revolt-- and he persecuted them unto death.

Now some anti-Semites would look at these kinds of examples and claim that all Jewish people are evil-- and yet we both know that this is not true. These examples are specific examples within history where ‘some’ Jewish people (not ‘all’ jewish people) behaved poorly.

And, in addition to this, it needs to be noted that, even in the case of Jews who did not accept Jesus as the Messiah, still nonetheless many Jews also rejected Kosiba’s claims as Messiah too. So just because a Jewish person rejects Jesus’s messianic claim does not automatically lump them in with those particularly misguided Jewish people who persecuted Christians under Simon bar Kokhba either.

It’s well known that Christian persecution by ‘certain’ Jewish authorites stopped when the population of Christianity became larger than the population of Judaism. In fact, at least in some circles, quite the opposite happened over the years since Christianity has grown.

Note: See how I was also leaning in the direction that we Christians have persecuted Jews too.

Now let’s carry on.
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

Nonetheless, at least in areas where Judaism has become dominant again, such at the re-instated nation of Israel, we do see a returning spirit of Simon bar Kokhba in a sense. Simon bar Kokhba most certainly does not speak for all Jewish people. He doesn’t even speak for Jews who have rejected Christ’s messianic claim-- since even Orthodox Jews within Israel have spoken out against the persecution of the Christian minority within Palestine.

But there are some bad things happening to Christians (and Muslims) there. Quite frankly, non-Jews within Israel face a labyrinth of official discrimination that works to oppress them and ultimately vex them into leaving.

And, quite frankly, the reason why I presented this information was because you asked for it.

See…

Damascus:

In the world we happen to have to live in TODAY–

Where have there been any incidents of Jewish people making a law to put apostates on trial with the punishment if found guilty would be death?

Answer that please.

Please note, before I begin to answer this question again, I would like to note that I already clearly explained my position on this matter.

See…

First of all, like I said before, even if there are Jewish people who act this way, I most certainly don’t think they speak for all Jewish people.

I don’t know of any recent incidents of Jewish people making a law to put apostates on trial with the punishment if found guilty would be death.

But I am familiar with both Christian and Muslim persecution by secular Jewish authorities within Israel.

Now, to be honest, I know for a fact that the more corrupt authorities of Israel do not speak for the whole of Judaism thoughout the world. The nation of Israel is, for the most part, quite secular-- although there is a tie to the more ancient and much harsher interpretations of Talmudic thinking.

Furthermore, if I recall correctly, there are actually more Jewish people in the State of New York than there are Jewish people in Israel-- and I’m fairly sure that many Jews throughout the entire world could frankly not care less what their politically orientated Zionist counter-parts in the nation of Israel think about non-Jews.

For that matter, many Orthodox Jews, if I recall correctly, feel that the Jews that have established the nation of Israel are actully going against God’s will when doing so-- so their politically orientated Zionist counter-parts in the nation of Israel do not speak for these Orthodox Rabbis either.

In other words, the reason why I was bringing this up was to illustrate that there are always radicals within every religion, which makes the rest of the more peaceful practicioners of the religion look bad.

And, like Islam, this includes Judaism too.

More to the point, these radical, Jewish, Zionists no more speak for all of Judaism then the extremist, Muslim, millitants speak for all of Islam.

What are you not understanding here?

Now are you familiar with the case of Nicola Ghattas, the othodox Christian living in Beit Sahour, or not?

If not, are you interested in learning more?

 

[Damascus]

Read post 81 or keep windbagging here

 

[Damascus]

Post 96 is still not answered

 

[Damascus]

Did you also miss post 77?