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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Mr. Ex Nihilo:
I don’t see telling the truth as slamming anyone.
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
Neither do I-- and I’ve never failed to point out the evils perpetuated by Islamic forces either.
But when someone goes even further than this and essentially claims that the Islamic faith is, for all practical purposes, instinsically evil and good for nothing, we’re stepping well past the “seeking elements of Christian truth in another faith” stage and instead going against the teachings of the Magisterium which seeks to find ways to reconcile Islam to Catholicism.
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
Just wanted to let you know I’ll be responding to this and other thoughts within your post later tonight.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Mr. Ex Nihilo:
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
or this?
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old.
An Ayeshath Radhiyallahu Anha: AnnaNnabiyya Sallallahu Alaihi Vasallama Thazawwajaha vahiya binthu sitha sineen, va udkhilath alaihi vahiya binthu this’in.
I actually fail to see any redeeming feature about Islam hence I cannot reconcile Islam with Christianity.
I wonder what is intrinsically good about this?
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
or this?
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old.
An Ayeshath Radhiyallahu Anha: AnnaNnabiyya Sallallahu Alaihi Vasallama Thazawwajaha vahiya binthu sitha sineen, va udkhilath alaihi vahiya binthu this’in.
I actually fail to see any redeeming feature about Islam hence I cannot reconcile Islam with Christianity.
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exoflare
Guest
Not to mention endorsing polygamy, making your ideal society where members of all other religions will have to pay a special tax for the “privilege” of living in peace, and putting apostates to death…
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Damascus
Guest
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Magicsilence
Guest
Exactly.
Ex Nihilo
Would you eat cheese covered in mould? No?
Would you pick out the bits that sort of looked non-mouldy and eat them? No?
It is the same with Islam.
Just because underneath all the oppression and violence there is a belief in “one” God, does that mean it is praiseworthy? No. And Im sure you’ll agree.
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meedo
Guest
Hello,
Mr Ex Nihilo is just trying to not let you get sweapt of your feet by blind hatred. This doesnt help anything any where.
We have our portion who do bad people and its not easy to combat this with most of our countries in secular dictatorships and poverty. I can controll a terrorist in Britain no more than you can.
Hope you understand. At least some will.
salam
Mr Ex Nihilo is just trying to not let you get sweapt of your feet by blind hatred. This doesnt help anything any where.
We have our portion who do bad people and its not easy to combat this with most of our countries in secular dictatorships and poverty. I can controll a terrorist in Britain no more than you can.
Hope you understand. At least some will.
salam
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Damascus
Guest
First, define blind hatred by your definition please, then we can see if it even applies here or anywhere…
Second, why do muslims live in poverty?
With all the almsgiving you guys do- cant the calliphs share any of it?
At least with the poor Muslims?
We have Catholic Charities and they help all people of all faiths…
salami
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Image_of_God
Guest
At least let us be a little light on the attacks on Islam.First, define blind hatred by your definition please, then we can see if it even applies here or anywhere…
Second, why do muslims live in poverty?
With all the almsgiving you guys do- cant the calliphs share any of it?
At least with the poor Muslims?
We have Catholic Charities and they help all people of all faiths…
salami
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carol_marie
Guest
Mr. Ex Nihilo,
I’ve been thinking about your posts. I agree with what you’re saying - but gosh, I am soooooo not there. I am just so very angry at Muslims for not speaking out against the fanatics that seem hell-bent on riding the world of everyone who isn’t Muslim. The fanatics may be a fringe - but they are powerful and I’m afraid of the world my children will grow up in because of them. And I can’t help but wonder if the silent Muslims are secretly glad that the fanatics are doing the dirty work?
I do believe Jesus would have us turn the other cheek and lay down our life if it helped to further the gospel. I wish I had a love for the Muslim people, but in the same week that I’m remembering how they flew planes into our buildings, they’ve called for the head of my Pope and they’ve murdered a nun. I have a such a hard time thinking about ANY Muslim with any sort of compassion or love that Jesus would ask of me.
But I appreciate your posts. They make me realize that I have some praying and work to do. Jesus said we are to love our enemies and pray for them. Not hate them. We are better than that.
CM
I’ve been thinking about your posts. I agree with what you’re saying - but gosh, I am soooooo not there. I am just so very angry at Muslims for not speaking out against the fanatics that seem hell-bent on riding the world of everyone who isn’t Muslim. The fanatics may be a fringe - but they are powerful and I’m afraid of the world my children will grow up in because of them. And I can’t help but wonder if the silent Muslims are secretly glad that the fanatics are doing the dirty work?
I do believe Jesus would have us turn the other cheek and lay down our life if it helped to further the gospel. I wish I had a love for the Muslim people, but in the same week that I’m remembering how they flew planes into our buildings, they’ve called for the head of my Pope and they’ve murdered a nun. I have a such a hard time thinking about ANY Muslim with any sort of compassion or love that Jesus would ask of me.
But I appreciate your posts. They make me realize that I have some praying and work to do. Jesus said we are to love our enemies and pray for them. Not hate them. We are better than that.
CM
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Eden
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And look at our what our children’s Muslim counterparts are learning:
pmw.org.il/ASK%20FOR%20DEATH.htm
washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/19/AR2006051901769.html
I believe many are.
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Damascus
Guest
I like blue cheese. It is , I think not just covered in mould, but I think it is really just mold and it still does not stop me from eating it.
But other than that, I still think it is a shame how many people have died in the last few years in the name of Allah.
Maybe in order to really have peace you need to have a role model that gave his very life for all.
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StMarkEofE
Guest
Has It Ever Occured To Everyone To Just Ask These Muslims To Leave Us The Hell Alone?
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Interfaith dialogue is always commendable, or in my case - faith-non-faith dialogue. Muslims like pro_Islam are good for all our souls; we just have to take their postings with a grain of salt. In my experience debating Muslims over many years - don’t believe anything they say. This is not to say they’re naturally liars but that they come from a totally different perspective. Good is evil and evil is good to them. Their moral perspective comes solely from the person of Muhammad: everything he did or prescribe must be good and everything he proscribe must be bad.
We need more Muslims like pro_Islam. Without it, we wouldn’t have interfaith dialogue. And I probably wouldn’t even bother with this site: arguing with peaceful Catholics isn’t much fun. So go blow up a mosque or something.
We need more Muslims like pro_Islam. Without it, we wouldn’t have interfaith dialogue. And I probably wouldn’t even bother with this site: arguing with peaceful Catholics isn’t much fun. So go blow up a mosque or something.
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StMarkEofE
Guest
Can you just imagine a Christian TOO timid to criticize authority because of the fear of being murdered? This is what Muslims have to consider when they come out to condemn certain Islamic extremists terrorists actions. This is the religion they belong to. Imagine being a Christians and condemning your priests actions on something and the priests reps come down on you and capture you and hold you for interrogation and maybe death.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
That is perhaps a little dramatic. The Muslim world is not homogenous - many parts of the Muslim world are more ‘liberal’, for instance in Indonesia and Malaysia. Granted what you say is true of Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or even India, but that is not true of all parts of the Muslim world, including those Muslim immigrants in Western countries who are perfectly free to come out and criticize their more extremist counterparts.
But by and large, we see totally connivance by so-called ‘moderate’ Muslims even when there is no risk of reaction from extremist elements. This is not to say that it is totally absent: in Indonesia there are ‘moderate’ voices calling for a more balanced perspective on this issue.
I think it is also a cop-out to say that moderate Muslims are ‘intimidated’ by their more fanatical counterparts into remaining silent. There is such a thing as collective responsibility. As someone (often misbelieved to be Edmund Burke) said, ‘All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing’ (or words to that effect).
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DWPC
Guest
Too bad very few muslims are aware or even care that the typical Christian response to their frequent communal tantrums is an attempt to empathize and understand them.
Our Bible is a history and record of God’s revelation. Their Koran, on the other hand, is more of a harangue: Chapter after chapter of Allah’s finger in mankind’s face. “Do what I say…or else!” A belief rooted in self-promoting authoritarian intimidation. Having read the Koran, I found its “shared beliefs” are so poorly presented (and that implies poorly understood) that they appear almost as parodies of Judaism and Christianity. We think faith and works; they think faith and strict obediance. The actual common ground is scant…we’re just to polite to explain it to them.
Its notable that the HF’s contentious Byzantine quote was originally said seven hundred years after Mohammed, and that the HF made his statement after another seven hundred years. After all those fourteen centuries, Islam thinks it’s still “misunderstood”? I don’t think so. I think we understand it pretty well, but our enlightened sensibilities keep us in denial.
The problem is that you can’t really share a dialogue with a mob, and that is, in essence, what Islam is. No interpretive authority is permitted . No hierachy is permitted. No one may tell a muslim what the Koran “means”. Therefore, its excesses, by definition, stand.
If Islam is a religion of peace, it’s not the peace of love and understanding, but rather the peace of submission and severe conformity. A well-travelled man once told me “If you want understand Islam, think Klingon.”
Our Bible is a history and record of God’s revelation. Their Koran, on the other hand, is more of a harangue: Chapter after chapter of Allah’s finger in mankind’s face. “Do what I say…or else!” A belief rooted in self-promoting authoritarian intimidation. Having read the Koran, I found its “shared beliefs” are so poorly presented (and that implies poorly understood) that they appear almost as parodies of Judaism and Christianity. We think faith and works; they think faith and strict obediance. The actual common ground is scant…we’re just to polite to explain it to them.
Its notable that the HF’s contentious Byzantine quote was originally said seven hundred years after Mohammed, and that the HF made his statement after another seven hundred years. After all those fourteen centuries, Islam thinks it’s still “misunderstood”? I don’t think so. I think we understand it pretty well, but our enlightened sensibilities keep us in denial.
The problem is that you can’t really share a dialogue with a mob, and that is, in essence, what Islam is. No interpretive authority is permitted . No hierachy is permitted. No one may tell a muslim what the Koran “means”. Therefore, its excesses, by definition, stand.
If Islam is a religion of peace, it’s not the peace of love and understanding, but rather the peace of submission and severe conformity. A well-travelled man once told me “If you want understand Islam, think Klingon.”
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
In a few words, but more politely, that is essentially what Sr. Francis attempted to do during the crusades. And certainly he is considered the most Christ-like of the Saints Triumphant.
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
But that’s not fair Damascus. Many Muslims have converted to Christinaity specifically because these things were pointed out to them by Christians willing to take the time to patiently explain these things to them.
And if converting Muslims to the Christian faith is considered futile, then I’m not exactly sure why we even bother preaching the Gospel in the first place.
Actually, it is kind of harsh.
Perhaps it’s not harsh by extremist Muslim standards. But it is harsh by pacifist Christian stantdards.
Damscus:
Actually, to be fair, I can’t speak for Muslims from the perspective of converting from Islam to Christianity. But as far as the reverse direction is concerned, in Africa anyway, this single distinction has made a very big difference when Muslims convert to Christianity.
Please note, even this article seems a bit harsh in my opinion.
For example, I do not believe that Muslims are discovering that the violence evinced by some of their coreligionists is inspired by the teachings of the Quran and the examples set by its author. I actually think this behavior by the extremists is an aberration from their own teachings.
In other words, unlike the claims of the article, I do not think that Muslims are becoming disillusioned with Islam. Rather, I think that many Muslims are simply discovering that there’s more to faith in God than a geo-political religion aimed at bringing peace to the world through force if necessary.
Regardless of what the critics say, there are very many powerful elements of true and pious faith within Islam. And while there are extremists within Islam who would gloss over any hint of mercy or love within Muhhamed’s teachings, there remains many solid teachings which can be extracted from Islam in order to complement the Christian faith.
Having said that, you can examine the article and get a feel for what’s going on in areas where people are allowed to freely choose their religion without coercion from extremists. I suspect that some of the numbers cannot be statistically verified. However, as far as the claims of Islamic clerics are concerned, these claims do represent a striking factor-- they’re scared of the effects that Christianity is having on their own religion.
I agree that it is complex. There are certainly other factos, such as socio-political factors for example. And while some do choose both Jesus and Muhhamed, a possibility which is manageable from a purely cultural context, in the end this is what it ultimately comes down to for people of either faith…
Jesus or Muhhamed
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