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THEKING
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Muhammad or Jesus?? is this a serious question?
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
You’re one to talk pro_universal.
To the extent that it can be frustrating to talk with a person of another faith, you really do fit within the parameters of exoflare’s definition of trying to nail jello to a wall.
I’m one of the people on this forum that is truly actually engaged in ecumenical dialogue between Christians and Muslims. I even gave you a reasonable comparison between Christianity and Islam as perceived in this other thread, and you succinctly dismissed every point by distorting the position without so much as a hint of embarrassment here and here for example.
My apologies pro_universal. But if you honestly think you’re one of the ‘open-minded’ people that I’m talking about when I interact with other Muslims, you’re not.
If you want a good example of a Muslim who engages in dialogue without distorting the ‘other’ side’s position, take a look at meedo’s posts. I don’t necessarilly agree with everything he says. In fact, from a Catholic perspective, there are some things he says I strongly disagree with. But I also understand that, based on what I’ve read, he’s presenting his thoughts on the matter fairly from his perspective.
When I read your posts, however, I don’t see this.
On the one hand, more often than not, you’re selectively conflating something which cannot be fully understood with something which cannot be rationally believed-- and stepping toward atheism in this sense.
On the other hand, more often than not, you’re selectively conflating genuine criticisms of Islam as being a manifestation of some kind of intollerable hatred-- all the while your accusations against Christianity are being upheld as paragons of true insight into the nature of the Church.
I’ll do my best to defend Islam from misrepresentation against it-- and I have seen my share of it here. But, in the spirit of true ecumenism, I will also challenge Islam when necessary to curb their own misrepresentations of the truth. And, regardless of whether it’s a deliberate pre-meditation or simply an honest mistake on your part, you are misrepresenting the truth.
So, no, I’m not really interested in ecumenical dialogue with you until you’re ready to sit down and intently search for the truth on this matter-- there is simply no comparison in our modern day between the violence perpetuated in the name of Islam when compared to the slanderous accusations made against Islam by those within the Church who go against their own Church’s teachings.
Period.
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pro_universal
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This is because I don’t agree with your theology. What you won’t find if you look through my posts are any accusations that Christianity is evil, that it teaches violence, or any similar talk.
Your major problem is that I won’t agree with you, not that I insult your religion (because I don’t.) Can you say the same about what exoflare and company are saying about Muslims?
I’m not Muslim.
No, I’m not. On the trinity, you and others have done that to me. There is a difference between not understood and inconsistent. The trinity is in the latter camp.
Please point me to some of this “genuine criticism” on the forum. I’d be happy to see where I jumped on it.
Which truth am I misrepresenting? How?
Okay, so let me get this straight: Because I don’t agree with you on this point, and because you put a period after it, therefore:
I’m not open minded and you are???
Strange. Until I agree with an assumption of yours, then anything I say will not be open minded. Curious definition of the phrase you have there.
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ronald
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we all know the freedom of embracing a religion in moslem countries is much worst than that in western countries. Why?, because of the command " kill the infidels." Talking about which religion is the truth is a never ending and therefore a tiring discussion, but please my moslem friends in Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Afghanistan and alike, treat all religion equally. give the people in your country freedom to embrace all religion or beliefs.
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exoflare
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Mr. Ex Nihilo,
pro_universal is in fact the only person I’ve ever put on the iggy list in all my time on CA forums. I don’t think all Muslims are as deliberately closed-minded as he is, but still it seems apparent that other Muslims just aren’t taught to use reason in backing up their teachings. If one’s only criteria in validating doctrine is “Mohammed said so” then attempting to use reason will prove to be useless. It may not be a conscious decision for most of them to think this way, but I think we need to realize that this is the reality of the situation.
pro_universal is in fact the only person I’ve ever put on the iggy list in all my time on CA forums. I don’t think all Muslims are as deliberately closed-minded as he is, but still it seems apparent that other Muslims just aren’t taught to use reason in backing up their teachings. If one’s only criteria in validating doctrine is “Mohammed said so” then attempting to use reason will prove to be useless. It may not be a conscious decision for most of them to think this way, but I think we need to realize that this is the reality of the situation.
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inJESUS
Guest
exoflare is correct. No matter how much you tell them you believe in One God, they’ll consider you a Muchrik…why? cuz Muhammad said so. The possiblity that Muhammad could be wrong is alien to them. complete brainwashing. And do not bother quote the Bible cuz it’s corrupt. Why / by who/ when it doesn’t matter. It MUST be corrupt cuz the Quran is different.
What can you do? pray, only Jesus will and is doing it like He did it with me and others i know. And the Holy Spirit is opening many Muslims’ eyes to the absurdities in Quran.Only a miracle will free them from their deception weaved by Muhammad and his furious spirit.
What can you do? pray, only Jesus will and is doing it like He did it with me and others i know. And the Holy Spirit is opening many Muslims’ eyes to the absurdities in Quran.Only a miracle will free them from their deception weaved by Muhammad and his furious spirit.
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Ladys76
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inJESUS
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After experience, i can tell Muslims are the least people who read.And Debating with them is a waste of time cuz logic on their part is absent. Muslims are very couragious when it comes to wars and swords, but the weakest when it comes to the word-sword. They are willing to believe any absurdity if Muhammad said it.If you ask them a deep question to which they got no answer or an absurd one, they respond : Allah knows best…in other words, i don’t care to know/understand. The topic they hate most is Jesus’ crucifixion. Why? cuz they know they believe in absurdities like someone else died. And if you ask them how come do you believe it? don’t you find it is absurd? they either don’t respond, or they say i believe he was not crucified period. You tell them ok but the Quran is telling you smth absurd …they just don’t respond. Complete brainwashing. If you look at their forums, you rarely see theological issues. They don’t question their faith cuz Muhammad told them not to.
If you want to understand why a Muslim is a muslim, read this:
Ibn Abu Hatim has narrated from Ibn Abbas saying: "'When Allah wanted to lift him up to heaven, Jesus came to his companions in the house. There were twelve people, with some from among his disciples. He had just a bath, and his head was still dribbling with water. He said to them: ‘There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after he had believed in me! Then he said: 'Who will from among you take my likeness and be killed in my place, so will become in my rank?’ A young youth came forwards. But Jesus said to him: ‘Sit down! Then he repeated the same question, and the same youth stood up and came forwards, and said: ‘I.’ Jesus said: ‘You are the one,’ and then the likeness of Jesus was put on him, and Jesus was lifted up to the heaven from the window of his house.
Jesus is portrayed as a hypocrite coward yet Muslims believe it and consider him a prophet. A complete illogical hadith and Muslims are proud of it. See why they are still Muslims?
If you want to understand why a Muslim is a muslim, read this:
Ibn Abu Hatim has narrated from Ibn Abbas saying: "'When Allah wanted to lift him up to heaven, Jesus came to his companions in the house. There were twelve people, with some from among his disciples. He had just a bath, and his head was still dribbling with water. He said to them: ‘There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after he had believed in me! Then he said: 'Who will from among you take my likeness and be killed in my place, so will become in my rank?’ A young youth came forwards. But Jesus said to him: ‘Sit down! Then he repeated the same question, and the same youth stood up and came forwards, and said: ‘I.’ Jesus said: ‘You are the one,’ and then the likeness of Jesus was put on him, and Jesus was lifted up to the heaven from the window of his house.
Jesus is portrayed as a hypocrite coward yet Muslims believe it and consider him a prophet. A complete illogical hadith and Muslims are proud of it. See why they are still Muslims?
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Angelos
Guest
Please keep in mind that what the Qoran teaches about Jesus and all the other biblical figures is mostly vague as well as evolutionary. Consider the following verses to see how the writers of the Qoran adapt the way they define Jesus to the biblical data they find out step by step:
Al Zukhruf 58-59: And they say, “Are our gods best, or he?” This they set forth to thee, only by way of disputation: yea, they are a contentious people. He was no more than a servant: We granted Our favour to him, and We made him an example to the Children of Israel.
Al Maidah 75: Al-Masih, the son of Maryam, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him.
We can see that the writers of a certain surah had doubts about Jesus’ being a messenger; therefore they said he was no more than a servant! The writers of a late Medina sura, however, endorse Jesus’ prophetic mission.
In regard to the title of Messiah. The ones writing the Qoran knew nothing about the title Messiah until late Medina period.
Maryam 34: Such (was) 'Isa the son of Maryam: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
Al Muminun 50: And We made the son of Maryam and his mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs.
Al-i Imran 45: Behold! the angels said: "O Maryam! Allah giveth Thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Al-Masih 'Isa. The son of Maryam, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah
An-Nisaa 157: That they said (in boast), “We killed Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah”; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them…
Al Maidah 72: They do blaspheme who say: “Allah is Al-Masih the son of Maryam.” But said Al-Masih: “O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah, Allah will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
We should also remember that the denial of Jesus’ passion and death and Jesus’ relevant assumption after a deceptive miracle aiming to fool Jews became basic Islamic doctrines only in the late Medina period.
Al Zukhruf 58-59: And they say, “Are our gods best, or he?” This they set forth to thee, only by way of disputation: yea, they are a contentious people. He was no more than a servant: We granted Our favour to him, and We made him an example to the Children of Israel.
Al Maidah 75: Al-Masih, the son of Maryam, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him.
We can see that the writers of a certain surah had doubts about Jesus’ being a messenger; therefore they said he was no more than a servant! The writers of a late Medina sura, however, endorse Jesus’ prophetic mission.
In regard to the title of Messiah. The ones writing the Qoran knew nothing about the title Messiah until late Medina period.
Maryam 34: Such (was) 'Isa the son of Maryam: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
Al Muminun 50: And We made the son of Maryam and his mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs.
Al-i Imran 45: Behold! the angels said: "O Maryam! Allah giveth Thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Al-Masih 'Isa. The son of Maryam, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah
An-Nisaa 157: That they said (in boast), “We killed Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah”; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them…
Al Maidah 72: They do blaspheme who say: “Allah is Al-Masih the son of Maryam.” But said Al-Masih: “O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah, Allah will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
We should also remember that the denial of Jesus’ passion and death and Jesus’ relevant assumption after a deceptive miracle aiming to fool Jews became basic Islamic doctrines only in the late Medina period.
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