Muhammed predicted the end of Islam.

[dzheremi]

I don’t understand. Is it saying that God purposefully gave verses to Muhammad that Muhammad and no other Muslim will ever understand? Why would God do that?

 

[inJESUS]

I don’t understand. Is it saying that God purposefully gave verses to Muhammad that Muhammad and no other Muslim will ever understand? Why would God do that?

i don’t know. Can i safely assume that Jesus’ “appearance” to be crucified is a verse which meaning only Allah knows? cuz neither the Quran explains, nor Muhammad in his sunna/hadith, nor do Muslims know…all are so hush-hush regarding this major point and i find it extremely bizarre this deafening silence and the answer is Allah knows best

 

[Eucharisted]

**Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0271: **
“…the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed: Verily Islam started as something strange and it would again revert (to its old position) of being strange just as it started, and it would recede between the two mosques just as the serpent crawls back into its hole.”

صحيح مسلم:
عن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏إن الإسلام بدأ غريبا وسيعود غريبا كما بدأ وهو ‏ ‏يأرز ‏ ‏بين المسجدين كما تأرز الحية في جحرها ‏
(E) (A)

​

That’s an authentic hadith, and I personally don’t know whether that prediction will ever be fulfilled, as we are seeing nowadays, Islam has reached more than 1.5 Billion followers worldwide and counting, also why he liken it like a serpent!, shouldn’t it last till the end of the days if its a true religion form God The Most High!. Or maybe Muhammed knew that his religion is a man made and it wouldn’t survive all that long so he predicted the end of it!

what do you think?

Anyone can predict the end of a religion. Dosen’t mean they’re right, though. And regarding Islam, I already know it’s going to end; Christianity is the true religion and Jesus has promised the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church, because He will be with us to the end of the ages, and He is in the Eucharist, and the Eucharist makes the Church, because it is the Body of Christ - so the Church will never die!

 

[planten]

I am not looking for a debate.

I am now confused. Verses from God can not be discussed. Why are they in the Quran if they should not be discussed?

How can the one God with one voice and one will have no real answer? If their is no real answer why would God reveal it yet hide it?

It does bring up an interesting point. Do you believe in predestination?

**You are right. The meaning of the verses can be discussed. But the subject of predestination should not be discussed as it does not lead to any useful answer.

Anyhow, that was the question I tried to ask you, “Do you believe in predestination?” If so, then explain how and why.**

 

[planten]

A vision. This leads me to other historical statements.

Do you believe in the bible?

The Bible account says God created all in six days (see Genesis 1:1 - 2:2). The Quran, however, has a real problem here as Surah 41:9, 10, 12 have a total of eight days of creation (4+2+2=8) Meanwhile, Surah 10:3 gives the total number of days of creation as six. Is this not self-contradiction of the word of God that can not contradict.

According to the Quran (Surah 20:90-100)a Samaritan helped the Israelites build the golden calf, and it mooed after coming out of the fire. The Samaritans did not exist as a people until at least 1000 years after the time of the Moses and the Israelite exodus from Egypt. This doesn’t appear to be a vision. Can you explain?

According to the Quran (Surah 9:30) the Jews believe that Ezra is the Son of God - the Messiah. The Jewish faith has never believed this? How can the word contradict? It is thought that Mohammed often received distorted facts concerning religions as he was in the Arab pennisula; however, as this is in infallible word of God how can it be in error?

According to the Quran (Surah 18:89-98) Alexander the Great was a devout Muslim and lived to a ripe old age. Historical records however show that Alexander the Great died young at 33 years of age (b. 356 B.C. - d. 323 B.C.), and believed he was divine, forcing others to recognize him as such. In India on the Hyphasis River (now Beas) Alexander erected twelve altars to twelve Olympian gods. Historical records show that Alexander was not a muslim. He existed before the Muslim religion was even thought of. How can this be?

I do not understand how the infallible word of the Quaran can have errors concerning history?

Please discuss one thing at a time and give the translation of the verses that you are discussing. There is no problem. You are welcome. Myself and/or some Muslim friend here will reply. Just relax and make up your mind to believe things.

 

[planten]

As long as you don’t recognize hadith you would, because that is not the true Islam and you know that, I just want to say to you if you think there are many nasty things in hadith then instead of denying them why don’t you search for the truth in another religion!.

**I don’t need to look for any other religion because there is no other religion worthy of believing save Islam.

I feel that Hadith is the work of some men 200 years after the passing away of the prophet. That is like bible is the work of men 300 years after the passing away of Jesus.

Our prophet Muhammad did not leave any Hadith for us just like Jesus did not leave any bible for you christians.

Our prophet left the Quran for us and his practice which was according to the Quran. Later people collected his sayings and wrote them in the books. But that was just an aid to the religion, not a final guide.

I follow the Quran and Sunnah of my prophet which is well known even without any book of Hadith. The practice is continued in this Ummah since the very first day. The Hadith only helps to support some practices and serves the Quran and Sunnah. hadith cannot overtake or take charge of the Quran and Sunnah.

So I know how to use the Hadith and which one is right, which one is wrong. I can try to understand the various Hadith by comparison with the verses of the Quran. I do not have any problem and I do not need to invent any new religion after the guidance given by the last prophet Muhammad.**

 

[planten]

Jha there is no Mo. Would you like your Jesus to be called Jes? Where is your polite attitude?

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

we don’t expect that non-Muslims will show respect to our beloved Prophet (p) . At least , can we ask to write his name properly , pl ?

Because of his teaching whom you are trying to insult as Mo , billion Muslims all over the world respect both Jesus & Mother Mary ( pbut). I guess , u noticed that we don’t even utter /write their names without using the words that means may peace & blessings of God be upon him/her . We do it out of love & respect .

I hope , it won’t be that hard & painful for non-Muslims to write the full name of Muhammed (p).

 

[swariffin]

Salaam/peace

we don’t expect that non-Muslims will show respect to our beloved Prophet (p) . At least , can we ask to write his name properly , pl ?

Because of his teaching whom you are trying to insult as Mo , billion Muslims all over the world respect both Jesus & Mother Mary ( pbut). I guess , u noticed that we don’t even utter /write their names without using the words that means may peace & blessings of God be upon him/her . We do it out of love & respect .

I hope , it won’t be that hard & painful for non-Muslims to write the full name of Muhammed (p).

Agreed. We should stop harrassing other figures, whoever he/she is. That is against the forum rule. We can criticise what Muhammad is teaching, but harrassing him is unwise I think. Of course, Muslim Woman, you can criticize Jesus’ teaching too.

 

[swariffin]

**
I feel that Hadith is the work of some men 200 years after the passing away of the prophet. That is like bible is the work of men 300 years after the passing away of Jesus.
**

That what is why Islam is linked to Gnosticism as being discussed in another thread. You guys believe that the bible were written 300 years after Jesus. You are talking about the Apocriph works, my friend. The earliest NT were written from 45AD to 55AD (letters of St.Paul). Mark was written around the 70’s. Some people believe that Matthew was written around the 50’s some believe in the 80’s. John was written around 90AD. How do the experts know about these dates? That is the science of papirology, my friend, supported by electron microscope as well as carbon dating technology. That is scientific enough to me.

For sure, the audience of the NT writings were the people who may have seen Jesus themselves. Or, the direct decendent of those who have met/heard Jesus themselves. They would refute anything wrong writing about Jesus. No way, my friend. Your claim that the bible is written in the 300’s shows that Mohammad knew Christianity from the wrong source.

 

[dzheremi]

Well said in both regards, Swariffin. We should show our inclinations towards understanding others by at least writing out the complete name of the figures discussed. I would not appreciate someone writing Jesus" as “Jees” or something like that. It is not so much work to write “Muhammad” or “Mohammed” instead of “Mo” or something like that. We may still disagree, but let’s be good examples of the intellect and love central to our faith by not being lazy or rude.

And the Bible being written X number of years after Jesus is something that Muslims might have a problem with, since Muhammad’s revelation occured over such a short period of time maybe they don’t understand the antiquity of the Biblical message. Indeed it is before the New Testament itself, with the Jewish belief in the coming of the Messiah. Certainly in those years prior to Jesus’ coming to Earth, and again in the time before the canonization of the Bible, there was already a rich oral tradition affirming the principles that define us as a community. This is something that Protestant Christians (and Muslims, apparently), however well-intentioned they may be, cannot understand, because they have only a book, and furthermore only their private, subjective interpretation of it. The apostles did not have a Bible, of course. Many of today’s believers in the most repressive societies may not have a Bible, or may only have parts of one, and they still believe in Christ. It is a beautiful thing, isn’t it? Remember what Jesus said to Simon Barjona about belief in what is not seen. It is truly a blessing from God.

If there were no Bible, how many would still believe?

Can we also ask our Muslim friends if they would believe if there were no Qur’an or Hadiths? I honestly have no idea if this is a valid question or not, but I think it is still worth asking.

Planten, would you be the first to answer, please? I would really appreciate your answer, since you have a lot to say about our Book.

 

[swariffin]

** Dear swariffin, that memorisation of whole Quran is a daunting task and it is not without value. Most of them understand the meaning too. The others who do not understand will do so soon.

You know that every Muslim child is placed in a school for just reading the Arabic alphabet and just reading the Quran, without understanding anything at all. That helps in the end. Every one can read the original words sent from Allah, (without understanding their meaning). No harm. They have to recie the Quran in every prayer five or more times a day. So it helps very much.

Later they all can learn the meaning of the verses in their own language too. There is no harm. A Haafiz (the one who has memorised the whole Quran by heart) is very useful to us all. But you may not understand these things.

I hope you will agree that reading without understanding is also the first step in the learning. I am sure you had learnt the alphabet and few words of English without understanding them in the beginning.beginning**

Muslim Woman mentioned about the Non-Arabs, my friend. You can go and ask those 180 million Indonesian Muslims. How many understand what the Quran says? Only the cleric, perhaps. Those Indonesian can be good in chanting the Adzan (for example), but not all of them understand the real meaning.

You remind me the time I learn english. I could read and sing an english song, but does not understand the meaning. What was good to me? Only learning the beauty of the tune and no more than that. You are quite correct that chanting is the first step of learning. But, without taking the NEXT STEP, that first step is nothing, my friend.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

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Salaam/peace

… Of course, Muslim Woman, you can criticize Jesus’ teaching too.

nuh , Jesus (p) taught all to worship One God only. He was a sinless Prophet . I wish he will come back in this earth during my lifetime ; so that I can go to the same mosque he offers salat

It will be wonderful to have Jesus (p) as our Imam .

 

[dzheremi]

I too await Jesus’ return, but for different reasons. He already leads me in any and all good things I do, and He is present in the Real Presence at every Mass already, so…well, you’re right, it is a great thing!

 

[PerryJ]

**You are right. The meaning of the verses can be discussed. But the subject of predestination should not be discussed as it does not lead to any useful answer.

Anyhow, that was the question I tried to ask you, “Do you believe in predestination?” If so, then explain how and why.**

I do not believe in double predestiantion. As a Catholic I am allowed to believe in free-will or predestination; but, not double predestination.

 

[PerryJ]

Salaam/peace

we don’t expect that non-Muslims will show respect to our beloved Prophet (p) . At least , can we ask to write his name properly , pl ?

Because of his teaching whom you are trying to insult as Mo , billion Muslims all over the world respect both Jesus & Mother Mary ( pbut). I guess , u noticed that we don’t even utter /write their names without using the words that means may peace & blessings of God be upon him/her . We do it out of love & respect .

I hope , it won’t be that hard & painful for non-Muslims to write the full name of Muhammed (p).

I am not trying to disrepct in any way. I am just tyring to understand what appear to be inconsistencies.

For example the contradictions in the Quran that I have mentioned.

I am also curious as to Muhammed’s confusion of Miram and Mary in the Quran. If he was told by God his message, how does can his message disagree with the Bible?. Both are the word of God yet Muhammed’s message is different than the Bibles? My understanding is it differs with historical records that I have read about.

I also get confused as to why Muhammed was allowed to marry his son’s wife? I understand his step son divorced his wife in order that Muhammed could marry her; however, I always believed a true prophet would be above this? Why would this be acceptable? Perhaps I am not understanding.

The third major confusion I have is Jesus believing in loving thy neighbor. He died for the world; however, it appears that Muhammed does not expand on his message. It appears that he goes backwards. For example his killing of the three poets that wrote against him. His demanding, some would say extortion, from the wealthy in Mecca when he marched ten thousand troops to the city to conquer it. Or even his pronouncment, that he later retracted, that one could worship three goddesses. I do not know of any prophet that ever stated that one could worship a God other than the one true God. He stated he was tricked by the Devil. Do this excuse him from this action? Does this not demonstrate something?

I am not trying to be disrespectful. The items I have read above are from Middle East writers and I do not understand. If you would be so kind to explain these items.

I would also like to see explanation of the inconsistency I have mentioned before. I again mean no disrepect. I just do not understand.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

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why Muhammed was allowed to marry his son’s wife?

Muhammed (p) had 2 sons , they died as kids. Zaid was a slave , already answered about it in other thread ( Muslims inferiority complex) , pl. check.

For example his killing of the three poets that wrote against him.

don’t know about 3 poets , know about 1 – kabb ibn …something. He committed blasphemy , I guess , u do know Bible also give death penalty who committed this sin . Kab wrote nasty poems against God , His messenger , innocent respected Muslim women ; He visited opponent groups of Muslims , tried to provoke about the ethnic cleansing of Muslims . He was guilty of committing many crimes including inviting enemies to invade where he lives .

If I live in US & invite Laden to do the ethnic cleansing of Jews or Christians , what do u think US Govt will do ?

he marched ten thousand troops to the city to conquer it. .

when Prophet conquered Macca , he forgave the killers of his daughter, uncle . Forgave those who tortured him & forced him to leave his birthplace . Not a single unarmed civilian was killed , not a single woman was tortured . Macca victory is the prime example how to forgive enemies , what is mercy etc.

 

[inJESUS]

Muhammed (p) had 2 sons , they died as kids. Zaid was a slave , already answered about it in other thread ( Muslims inferiority complex) , pl. check.

 

[PerryJ]

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Muhammed (p) had 2 sons , they died as kids. Zaid was a slave , already answered about it in other thread ( Muslims inferiority complex) , pl. check.

**I understand that you believe the person was a slave. That I will have to verify. I am still perplex as even if she was a slave she was mairried to his step son. Once he became interested in her his step son divorced her and he married her. Does this sound like a resonable action? Even if she was a slave is this right? How can one marry their stepsons wife? Is this normally allowed when the stepson has not died? **

don’t know about 3 poets , know about 1 – kabb ibn …something. He committed blasphemy , I guess , u do know Bible also give death penalty who committed this sin . Kab wrote nasty poems against God , His messenger , innocent respected Muslim women ; He visited opponent groups of Muslims , tried to provoke about the ethnic cleansing of Muslims . He was guilty of committing many crimes including inviting enemies to invade where he lives .

**I read two of the poems and thought they were not blasphemy against God they were negative only about him. Did he consider himself God? Have you read the poems? I can perhaps post them in the next couple fo days. **

If I live in US & invite Laden to do the ethnic cleansing of Jews or Christians , what do u think US Govt will do ?

**Comparing Muhammed to the US Government is the wrong comparison. Muhammed has to be compared to Christ. Christ gave himself over to be martryed rather than fall to worldy desires. He placed full faith in God as he was God. In the three temptations of Christ he chooses God over this world. Muhammed seems to chose worldy posessions over God in several instances.

I am sure Muslims have many martrys. All of the apostles except perhap Johns allowed themselves to be killed for Christ versus harm others. How does this compare to Muhammed?**

when Prophet conquered Macca , he forgave the killers of his daughter, uncle . Forgave those who tortured him & forced him to leave his birthplace . Not a single unarmed civilian was killed , not a single woman was tortured . Macca victory is the prime example how to forgive enemies , what is mercy etc
**Did he forgive them? My secular sources state he demanded payment. Do you know if he demanded money?

Did not his protective clan disown him and allow him to be attacked by others. My understanding of Arabian beliefs at the time was that raiding and killing of others was the norm. His clan disowned him; which, allowed this to occur. Why did the clan that raised him disown him?

If killing etc is wrong why did he perform these action when he was raiding Mecca caravans. I am sure you have read that he gained power and money by attacking Meccan carvans. He did this while he resided in Medina. Why is it okay for him yet you appear to state is was wrong for others?

I am againt not trying to be disrepectful as I am sure you can explain all of this to me. I just do not understand.**.

 

[swariffin]

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Salaam/peace

nuh , Jesus (p) taught all to worship One God only. He was a sinless Prophet . I wish he will come back in this earth during my lifetime ; so that I can go to the same mosque he offers salat

It will be wonderful to have Jesus (p) as our Imam .

No way. When Jesus indeed come in our time, He will segregate humans into two categories: (a) one who did and still doing good deeds, and (b) who doesn’t. Those who does regardless of race, religion, skin color, language, geographical birth place, you name it, will go with Him to his glory. Sorry, Jesus is not as close minded as to be Islam or Arab centric as you think. You get too much influenced by Muhammad, so much that you believe that Muhammad knows every single thing about God. Remember, God does not recognize culture, my dear sister.