Muhammed's theology FAILS.

[staffsgt7]

Yes it is, but only when they deserve those names.

considering you don’t like to be called to task for your opinions on this thread. The turn around, or inability to recognize it is wrong to do the same to someone else is very surprising.

No one deserves those names. In fact, name calling is just a projection of what the one who is doing the calling feels about themself. A religion based on name calling tells me a lot which is that this religion isn’t based on anything that calls for toleration of others. It is meant to debase people so the ‘sword’ surahs won’t be so repugnant to them.

Maybe Islam is a ‘teenager’ mentality. Too bad that it doesn’t grow up and realize that any right thinking person would reject it just because of the whole of Chapter o9 in Sharia laws. With the rules and regulations of Sharia laws on a person’s every actions, it reminds me more of a pre-teen type of mentality. ‘A baby that doesn’t know how to control its bowels’ religion and has to be told, daily, how to wash, think, etc. And the bad part is that we at least start telling our children it is wrong to lie, beat other people up and kill, torture and enslave them.

 

[Kadaveri]

Dzheremi -

I don’t see how your post poses any real problem to my explanation. Just read the next verse of the Qur’an after the one we’re discussing:

O People of the Book. Now, after a long time during which no apostles have appeared, there has come unto you Our Messenger to make (the truth) clear to you, lest you say “No bearer of glad tiding has come unto us, not any warner”; for now there has come unto you a bearer of glad tidings and a warner - since God has the power to will anything. (5:19)

It’s calling on you to follow Muhammad, that’s the point the Qur’an is getting across. I didn’t say (and nor does the Qur’an say) that People of the Book believe that they are *guaranteed *Paradise, you’re now putting words in my mouth. The Qur’an says that the People of the Book say they are God’s children; which I don’t see how you can dispute, what with all the references of God being the ‘Father’ of Israel, the special place of the body of believers and the Church etc; and so they don’t need to accept Muhammad’s Prophethood. The Qur’an says, you don’t have any special position. If it helps you understand better, it’s saying Jews and Christians have no covenent with God, even if they think they do. The only legitimate covenant with God is that revealed through the Qur’an and Muhammad.

 

[Kadaveri]

Interesting.

Do any of the names listed mean the same thing?

As-Samad means more or less the same thing.

 

[dzheremi]

Dzheremi -

I don’t see how your post poses any real problem to my explanation. Just read the next verse of the Qur’an after the one we’re discussing:

Well then you’re not paying very close attention to what you post, because you’re the one who posted that it is God’s view on the Christians, even though it has pointed out to you several times by now that this is not something that Christians teach or believe, so the god of the Qur’an is effectively making himself look like a fool by chastising us for something that he should already know that we DON’T actually believe, if he IS the true God. Explain how this can be, please!

It’s calling on you to follow Muhammad, that’s the point the Qur’an is getting across. I didn’t say (and nor does the Qur’an say) that People of the Book believe that they are *guaranteed *Paradise, you’re now putting words in my mouth.

You’re right, that was hyperbole on my part, referring to what you wrote in post #51, which does not say “guaranteed”, but implies that we believe that we will get to paradise because we are God’s children:

Kadaveri:

Christians and Jews say we reject Muhammad but we still think we’re on our way to Paradise because we are God’s people.

The Qur’an says that the People of the Book say they are God’s children; which I don’t see how you can dispute, what with all the references of God being the ‘Father’ of Israel, the special place of the body of believers and the Church etc;

We most certainly do say that we are children of God. We are made in His image, as are you and as is everybody else.

and so they don’t need to accept Muhammad’s Prophethood.

This is not at all related to our position as God’s children, as we were that before Muhammad ever existed, before Islam ever existed, etc. As I have said before, Muhammad and Islam are really ENTIRELY UNRELATED to Christian theology or practice. You can try to connect Muhammad or Islam to Christianity all day, but in the end it just produces more irrelevancy such as what you’ve said here.

The Qur’an says, you don’t have any special position. If it helps you understand better, it’s saying Jews and Christians have no covenent with God, even if they think they do. The only legitimate covenant with God is that revealed through the Qur’an and Muhammad.

Well this is mighty strange in light of verses like 29:46, which says “And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our Allah and your Allah is One, and to Him do we submit.” (emphasis mine)

There is also 5:68, which says: Say: “O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord.” It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith." (It seems rather strange to me that the Qur’an would say that we should stand by the Gospel if it is not true)

And, my personal favorite, 5:47, which says: “Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.” (taken in the context of 5:46, this seems to be telling us to judge what is presented to us in light of what is in the Gospel, so…this thread was aptly named - Muhammad’s theology FAILS when we do that!)

You may not be interested in defending your own argument, but I still have not seen anything from you that explains how “god” in the Qur’an somehow got it wrong about what we teach. I’m not going to let go of this, because I think it shows the inherent weakness of your argument, and really the Qur’an itself (as this is one instance where it ISN’T open to interpretation or context; it’s just wrong on its face).

If you really don’t understand how what you’ve said up to now creates a logical problem for your position, perhaps someone else can jump in and try, because I’m out of ways to explain it. Byzantine Wolf? Staffsgt? Bueller…?

 

[Kadaveri]

Wolverine -

In case there’s any misunderstanding, I don’t think what was done on 9/11 was necessary or justifiable. I support any methods of resisting the criminal policies of the USA and its client regimes in the Middle-east in line with international law. Violence against civilians is not a legitimate way to do this.

I can only answer your second query by saying that Islam has a very different history to Christianity. Most of Arabia and parts of what are now Iraq, Jordan and Syria were already Muslim by the time Muhammad died. At the time the verse I explained was revealed, the Muslims had a city state in Medina and the surrounding area, of which Muhammad was the ruler. They founded this city state after fleeing Mecca, where they were being persecuted too severely to remain. After which the Meccans made war upon the Muslims in Medina, as Islam was considered too grave a threat to the traditional Arab order to be allowed to exist.

 

[Kadaveri]

Dzheremi -

You’re not paying attention. The “God’s children” has nothing to do with this ‘we our created in God’s image’ belief. You know full well (or should know full well) that ‘Israel’ in the Bible is not humanity in general, it means a people who have a covenant with God. Christians, as well as the Jews, do believe that they have a covenant with God. I’m not willing to discuss this with you any further until you accept that Christians do believe this and stop bringing in all these extraneous issues; which I will not waste my time with.

 

[ralphinal]

As-Samad means more or less the same thing.

Thanks. What is the translation of it?

 

[Kadaveri]

Thanks. What is the translation of it?

Something like ‘that which was, is, and always will be’.

 

[ralphinal]

Something like ‘that which was, is, and always will be’.

Thank you again

 

[staffsgt7]

Wolverine -

In case there’s any misunderstanding, I don’t think what was done on 9/11 was necessary or justifiable. I support any methods of resisting the criminal policies of the USA and its client regimes in the Middle-east in line with international law. Violence against civilians is not a legitimate way to do this.

I can only answer your second query by saying that Islam has a very different history to Christianity. Most of Arabia and parts of what are now Iraq, Jordan and Syria were already Muslim by the time Muhammad died. At the time the verse I explained was revealed, the Muslims had a city state in Medina and the surrounding area, of which Muhammad was the ruler. They founded this city state after fleeing Mecca, where they were being persecuted too severely to remain. After which the Meccans made war upon the Muslims in Medina, as Islam was considered too grave a threat to the traditional Arab order to be allowed to exist.

Talk about revising history. Even your own hadith says that Mohammed was a pest and that the Jews in Medina did nothing to deserve what Mohammed dished out to them - killing them, enslaving their women and children and taking their lands. But that is the way Islam has conducted itself since Mohammed realized that it was easier to kill, steal, lie, enslave and terrorize people.

Mohammed made holy the vilest of deeds and the sorry part of all of this is that so many still carry on these vile acts while others either ignore it, support it, or are in fear of it.

Dying while killing kufir (unbelievers) for Allah’s cause is the holiest of things to do and will get that person on a fast path to Mohammed’s promise of heaven.

“Those whose scale of good will be heavy will prosper. Those whose scale will be light will find their souls in perdition [hell], for they wrongfully treated Our Signs.” That’s the basis of the religion of Islam. Good works. The more you do the heavier the “good” side of your scale becomes. Unfortunately, all the good deeds in the world can’t outweigh predestination. And the best “good deed” according to Muhammad is to die a jihadist terrorizing infidels.

From Bukhari’s, Book of Jihad, Chapter 1, number 1204: “A man came to Allah’s Messenger and said, 'Guide me to such a deed as equals Jihad in reward. ’ He said, ‘I do not find such a deed.’” Bukhari:V4B52N50 “The Prophet said, ‘A single endeavor of fighting in Allah’s Cause is better than the world and whatever is in it.’”

As for predestination:
Qur’an 97:1 “We have revealed it (the Qur’an) in the Night of Predestination.”

Bukhari:V6B60N473 “Every created soul has his place written for him either in Paradise or in the Hell Fire. His happy or miserable fate is predetermined for him.”
There are more verses about predestination.

 

[dzheremi]

Dzheremi -

You’re not paying attention. The “God’s children” has nothing to do with this ‘we our created in God’s image’ belief. You know full well (or should know full well) that ‘Israel’ in the Bible is not humanity in general, it means a people who have a covenant with God. Christians, as well as the Jews, do believe that they have a covenant with God. I’m not willing to discuss this with you any further until you accept that Christians do believe this and stop bringing in all these extraneous issues; which I will not waste my time with.

Yes, we are under a new covenant. What is your point? This has never been expressed within Christianity as some sort of claim that God loves us especially (this is what YOU claimed that we say in post #2 of this thread), as we believe that Christ is the Savior of ALL, as He died for ALL, including those who do not accept Him, such as you.

Furthermore, this issue of being God’s children is something that YOU raised in post #81, so I don’t know why you’re now saying that I’m bringing up “extraneous issues” by affirming that.

As far as who is or who is not “Israel”, I’ll let Romans 9:6 say it: “But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel” (emphasis mine). It is a well-known interpretation in Christianity that the Church is the “new Israel” (see, for instance, this article from this very website).

Now will you please answer the question I’ve asked you over and over: How is it that “God” in the Qur’an sends this verse to refute a claim that He should know (since he is God) that we do not actually make? How is that the God of the Qur’an does not know what we believe, when He is supposedly the God of all? What sort of God is it that is omnipotent and eternal and yet does not have knowledge of basic Christian theology?

 

[Reuben_J]

O People of the Book. Now, after a long time during which no apostles have appeared, there has come unto you Our Messenger to make (the truth) clear to you, lest you say “No bearer of glad tiding has come unto us, not any warner”; for now there has come unto you a bearer of glad tidings and a warner - since God has the power to will anything. (5:19)

It’s calling on you to follow Muhammad, that’s the point the Qur’an is getting across. I didn’t say (and nor does the Qur’an say) that People of the Book believe that they are *guaranteed *Paradise, you’re now putting words in my mouth. The Qur’an says that the People of the Book say they are God’s children; which I don’t see how you can dispute, what with all the references of God being the ‘Father’ of Israel, the special place of the body of believers and the Church etc; and so they don’t need to accept Muhammad’s Prophethood. The Qur’an says, you don’t have any special position. If it helps you understand better, it’s saying Jews and Christians have no covenent with God, even if they think they do. The only legitimate covenant with God is that revealed through the Qur’an and Muhammad.

The Quran states that we are to be judged by our own book (5:47) because we have received the revelation from God (5.68).

Unless it’s due to atrocious translation, 5:19 is yet again another erroneous assumption.
Christians did not expect any more apostles to appear after Jesus so that verse is merely creating issue which none is required. O People of the Book. Now, after a long time during which no apostles have appeared, there has come unto you Our Messenger to make (the truth) clear to you, lest you say “No bearer of glad tiding has come unto us, not any warner”; for now there has come unto you a bearer of glad tidings and a warner - since God has the power to will anything. (5:19)

Christians believe that there is no more new revelation after Jesus because everything that needs to be revealed for salvation had been revealed. Christians were only exhorted to be steadfast with their faith which was what the Christian Church doing then. Why, now, oh why, they had to follow Mohammad who brought along a completely new set of teaching when they were quite alright with what they already received?

Christian teaching asked them to be holy, loving, chaste, pious, believing in God, respecting parents, not to kill or doing harmful thing to others, not to lie, not to gossip, not to commit adultery, not to be greedy, to pray and to be charitable even to their enemy… . How could that kind of teaching make Christians bad that they need to turn over and follow Mohammad?

Granted Christians believed that in their accepting Jesus as their God and Savior they become children of God. What it entails to be children of God is another subject but essentially it means to do what Jesus taught. How could that be wrong or lead to destruction or sin? Jesus taught all that is good. Unless the Quran thought that Jesus taught wrongly (which plainly he did not).

It boils down, again, to the fact that Mohammad thought Christian believed that by being children of God they were guaranteed heaven even if they sin. That’s why the Quran says, ‘God will chastise you if you sin so you are not special, you are like everybody else’ (paraphrase). Again to repeat, this has never been the belief of Christians - that they could get away with sin.

You or the Quran, if indeed it means that way, got it wrong again about the covenant. Covenant means simply what I mention above - Christians live and obey teachings, God will reward them. If they do not live and obey, God will not reward them and they will be separated from God and face the consequence.

By having the covenant it merely separates them from the non-believers who do not live according to the ways of God and therefore will not receive God’s reward.

 

[ralphinal]

If according to the Qur’an in 5:19 God has the power to will anything, can he actually will evil?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

If according to the Qur’an in 5:19 God has the power to will anything, can he actually will evil?

I believe that Islam thinks it is so. After all they teach that God condemns people to Hell with no chance of the person changing that fate.

 

[TEPO]

Any religeon that teaches that the end justifies the means is a “failed” religion…

Mohammad encourages his followers to LIE under certain conditions !

Muslims can even lie under oath, and can even falsely deny their faith in allah. Catholics would NEVER do such things. In fact, many saints were martyred for refusing to do such deceitful things… Then again, look at the deceitfulness, and shamefulness of Muslim jihaadists who hide-out among women and children during battle, putting innocent people in danger, rather than fighting out front like men.

Here is the source of the “ends justify the means” trend, which consistently works its way out of Muhammed’s failed theology —

islamreview.com/articles/lying.shtml
"In the Quran, Allah, allegedly, says:
“Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful.” Surah 5:89

“Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness (vain) in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.” Surah 2:225

“Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.” Surah 16: 106

The noted Islamic commentator, Al-Tabary explained Surah 16:106 as a verse that had been revealed to Mohammed after he learned that Ammar Ibn Yasser was forced to deny his faith in Mohammed when kidnapped by the Banu Moghera tribe. Mohammed consoled Ammar by telling him, “If they turned, you turn.” (Meaning: if they again capture you, you are allowed to deny me again.)

also from the book “The Spirit of Islam” by Scholar and Prophet Afif A. Tabbarah - the “prophet” claims that “Lying is not always bad, to be sure; there are times when telling a lie is more profitable and better for the general welfare, and for the settlement of conciliation among people, than telling the truth. To this effect, the Prophet says: 'He is not a false person who (through lies) settles conciliation among people, supports good or says what is good.”

 

[TEPO]

The lying also allows muslims to “bear false witness”… A grave and MORTAL sin within the Catholic Church…

Is’nt it true that if a muslim can freely deny his faith in allah for his own safety, that he has just given “false witness”…?

It seems that the quran is simply NOT a divine work from God. the Quran shows that this “allah” allows good sometimes and evil other times… The True God of the Judeo/Christians is ALL GOOD ALL the time.

Its just that simple !

 

[MrZetterlund]

Geez, this is the last time I post a thread about Muhammed. Turned into all this arguing. I post a thread about how Joseph Smith’s theology fails, I get four posts. I post how Muhammed’s theology fails, we argue about terrorism for a full eight pages. -_-’

 

[tomarin]

Geez, this is the last time I post a thread about Muhammed. Turned into all this arguing. I post a thread about how Joseph Smith’s theology fails, I get four posts. I post how Muhammed’s theology fails, we argue about terrorism for a full eight pages. -_-’

Never discuss as a general rule religion, or politics in polite society.

 

[ralphinal]

Geez, this is the last time I post a thread about Muhammed. Turned into all this arguing. I post a thread about how Joseph Smith’s theology fails, I get four posts. I post how Muhammed’s theology fails, we argue about terrorism for a full eight pages. -_-’

The difference is that the failure of Joseph Smith’s theology has not lead to groups of people with violent intentions. Notice, I am not saying that ALL Muslims are terrorists. Just some

 

[NoviceApologist]

the contradictions become quite clear when you look at this webpage (google is so useful) carm.org/religious-movements/islam/contradictions-quran