multicultured lands, the chrisianity's doom?

[eleonardo]

my land, norway

just ask Nils from Holland if I’m right.

Holland is not Norway and Norway is not Holland.

You have to admit a continent that has immersed the globe in endless war for the past 3,000 years, and its two World Wars in the last century killed 100’s of million of people brutally and mercilessly, crying about the US war in Iraq like it’s the most unjust war since the rape of Nanking is a little but hypocritical no? I disagree with the war in Iraq, but the war machine in Europe has turned to bleeding hearts and whiners, sorry, calling a spade a spade here. Just say thank you, and apolize for the half century of hell on Earth.

Im afraid we’re going off topic here. But yes, the war in Iraq was unjust, since the reasons for starting it were non existant, as admitted by Bush. Wars in the past have nothing to do with this.
But, again, this is off topic, so Ill not comment further on it.

Just say thank you, and apolize for the half century of hell on Earth.

This right here portrays your ignorance quite nicely.
Pax tecum!

 

[Saint_Michael]

Holland is not Norway and Norway is not Holland.

Im afraid we’re going off topic here. But yes, the war in Iraq was unjust, since the reasons for starting it were non existant, as admitted by Bush. Wars in the past have nothing to do with this.
But, again, this is off topic, so Ill not comment further on it.

This right here portrays your ignorance quite nicely.
Pax tecum!

If folks in Europe can indict all American’s on the war in Iraq like Contrarini did, and you appear to do too, I don’t think it’s unfair to bring up 3,000 constant years of warfare in Europe, 3 of the most brutal empires ever to rule the Earth, and two world wars that killed hundreds of millions. Let’s not forget the lovely contribution of communism to human society. I didn’t bring up the Iraq war Contrarini did.

For Europeans to indict Americans on the Iraq war, sitting around thinking themselves peaceful and enlightened while Americans are brutish redneck’s is such a joke…

 

[eleonardo]

If folks in Europe can indict all American’s on the war in Iraq like Contrarini did, and you appear to do too, I don’t think it’s unfair to bring up 3,000 constant years of warfare in Europe, 3 of the most brutal empires ever to rule the Earth, and two world wars that killed hundreds of millions. I didn’t bring up the Iraq war Contrarini did.

For Europeans to indict Americans on the Iraq war, sitting around thinking themselves peaceful and enlightened while Americans are brutish redneck’s is such a joke…

In the fear of sidetracking this thread, I’ll continue cautiouslly:

Saint_Michael,
I disagree with you on all brought up points, except Contrarini being the one that brought up Iraq.
First of all you totally generalize. If you want your comparison to work, you’d have to extract every single country in Europe and give your statement on each and every single one of them, since Europe consists of many countries.
Secondly, your argument has no bearing anyways, since 3000 years of wars (?) has NOTHING to do with “Europe” critiqueing America about the war in Iraque NOW. The war in Iraque which you btw also oppose, and rightly so
Thirdly, America consists also of immigrants of Europe. So, you’d be referring to them too!
Pax!

 

[Saint_Michael]

In the fear of sidetracking this thread, I’ll continue cautiouslly:

Saint_Michael,
I disagree with you on all brought up points, except Contrarini being the one that brought up Iraq.
First of all you totally generalize. If you want your comparison to work, you’d have to extract every single country in Europe and give your statement on each and every single one of them, since Europe consists of many countries.
Secondly, your argument has no bearing anyways, since 3000 years of wars (?) has NOTHING to do with “Europe” critiqueing America about the war in Iraque NOW. The war in Iraque which you btw also oppose, and rightly so
Thirdly, America consists also of immigrants of Europe. So, you’d be referring to them too!
Pax!

Not really my family came from Ireland 100 years ago but it means squat to me, I’m an American not a European. The day America starts gassing millions of Jews then Germany can condemn us, thanks. The day America kills millions of Catholics like the English did to the Irish over hundreds of years, then they can condmen us. The day we start rounding up Muslims and executing them by the tens of thousands like in Bosnia then you can condemn us. The day America infests the globe with a sickness like communism, then Europe can condemn us. And to use your bad logic, there are MORE European nations involved in Iraq than North American nations, so point the finger in your own direction. And if Europe actually hand some guts in the U.N. and stood up to Saddam with the US, this entire war wouldn’t have happened, instead you tried to placate him, the same why you tried with Hitler, the same way you are trying to placate North Korea and Iran.

Fact is there has been no other area in the world that has caused more horror, bloodshed, and warfare than Europe, not even close. Worry about yourselves, and stop thinking yourselves so peaceful and enlightened you’re not. Ten years ago you guys were trying to get another holocaust going on Muslims, so relax on the false piety.

 

[sandmountainsli]

I’ll be honest Nils, it’s not looking good. America is not far behind Europe, QUOTE]

In some parts of America that may be so but where I live you cannot throw a rock without hitting one church or another and most of them are filled every Sunday morning and Wednesday evening. You can’t run people OUT of churches around here. I honestly don’t personally know more than 2 people who claim to be atheist and I know ALOT of folks.
Then again they do call this the “Bible Belt” so maybe that has something to do with it.
WP

 

[eleonardo]

Not really my family came from Ireland 100 years ago but it means squat to me, I’m an American not a European. The day America starts gassing millions of Jews then Germany can condemn us, thanks. The day America kills millions of Catholics like the English did to the Irish over hundreds of years, then they can condmen us. The day we start rounding up Muslims and executing them by the tens of thousands like in Bosnia then you can condemn us. The day America infests the globe with a sickness like communism, then Europe can condemn us. And to use your bad logic, there are MORE European nations involved in Iraq than North American nations, so point the finger in your own direction. And if Europe actually hand some guts in the U.N. and stood up to Saddam with the US, this entire war wouldn’t have happened, instead you tried to placate him, the same why you tried with Hitler, the same way you are trying to placate North Korea and Iran.

Fact is there has been no other area in the world that has caused more horror, bloodshed, and warfare than Europe, not even close. Worry about yourselves, and stop thinking yourselves so peaceful and enlightened you’re not. Ten years ago you guys were trying to get another holocaust going on Muslims, so relax on the false piety.

You can bring up as many atrocities as you like, but my point still stands.

I’m not the one using bad logic, you are, as I have pointed out. When I do so, please point it out to me, and I’ll appreciate it.

You have also raised present day issues, good. Sadly you still generalize with “You this, you that”. Again, what you still don’t seem to grasp, is that Europe is not one single country, it’s a continent. I could blame Canada for the war in Iraque. It’d make as much sense as your comments.

Lastly, it’s not really fair to compare 3000 years of war,as you mention, in comparison to (also) America. How long has the US existed sofar? And quite frankly, to further humor you with your ridiculous comparison, the US has had its fair share of wars during it’s still young existence.
Pax tecum!!
I’ll repeat that: PAX TECUM!

edit 2: ps. Please let’s not further derail this topic with politics! If you wish to discuss politics, pm me, Ill be happy to show you the error of your views

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam all;
I am a Muslim.

The Earth belongs to God and He gives it to whom He wants. It does not belong to anyone. Don’t cry about Norway, cry about your own salvation, Norway will not stand with you nor will my country stand with me the Judgment Day, you will be alone as I will.

There is one simple Divine rule: forbid what God forbade and enjoin what God enjoined and the wicked one is defeated. What God enjoined is the right, and what He forbade in the wrong. If we don’t have the guts to do that, then the wickedness will enter right to our very homes and we could do nothing about it.

Aren’t the fornicators called “stars” and applying for presidential election? Aren’t homos being married in the Church of God? Aren’t governments making laws to authorize same sex marriage? Aren’t homos sitting in the chair of legislators making laws to the people? Aren’t singers which produce nothing but hot air being taken as idols to the point of worship? Aren’t the female singers setting the mood and racing when it comes to which one of them shows the most of her flesh? Aren’t…? Aren’t…? The list is very long indeed and all this come back to us, to affect our Children, who are the future.

It is said that women are the guardian of the religious traditions, this is true, but what if most of the women have their hearth somewhere else, racing behind the latest fashion, searching always for the best skin treatment trying to stop or erase the marks of time.
The poet said: “The woman is a school, if you prepare her well; you have prepared a generation with roots good and strong”

The role of the mother is very important and dangerous in any society. They rear the next generation, they are the ones with whom the children spend their most tender years, being like an open book, write in it what you want. Unfortunately, what is being written is not about religious virtue and duties.

The monotheistic faiths need to rise to the occasion and forbid what God forbade and enjoin what God enjoined. God enjoin the Good and what he forbad is from the Evil one. We need to take the wicked one as our enemy, because that is exactly what he is, the bitterest enemy of the sons of Adam.

If the Muslims in your country do the following: “(They are) those who, if We establish them in the land, establish regular prayer and give regular charity, enjoin the right and forbid wrong: with Allah rests the end (and decision) of (all) affairs.” [022.041] then their religion will flourish no matter what.

PS: I hope I did not anger someone with the above, if so please disregard what I wrote. This is my sole opinion.
Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Contarini]

I guess you missed the part that said America isn’t far behind?

On many issues America is out ahead, leading the pack. Even with regards to abortion–Mary Ann Glendon wrote a book in the 80s showing that the most liberal European countries were in many ways more protective of the unborn than the U.S., because they didn’t have this nonsensical idea that there was some sort of absolute right to abortion.

I’m not sure that’s true today, but if it isn’t it’s because Europe has caught up with America, not the other way round.

I have no idea what the war in Iraq has anything to do with what we’re discussing here but whatever.

The Europeans I talked to were not relativists. They thought there were clear moral principles being violated by Bush’s policies. That’s my point. “Relativism” is one of those slur words with very little meaning. In my experience the problem with many Europeans today is that they are too little aware of moral nuance–they are so revolted by their own bloody history that they are willing to condemn anything that seems remotely associated with it.

And Germany officially is not allowed to comment on war, war crimes, unjust wars for at least another two hundred years being their recent wars in Europe killed probably more than 100 million people. 12 million of those in cold blood and deliberate attempts to eradicate entire races of people. I believe it’s actually a U.N. resolution that Germany must keep their mouths shut on any and all war matters.

I don’t know if that’s the case, but it’s irrelevant if so. The fact that Germans and other Europeans have launched plenty of wars means that they know just how seductive militarism can be. They are in fact the best qualified people to know militarism when they see it. Again, that’s my point. When Europeans criticize Americans, Americans claim that it’s because the Europeans are spineless relativists who don’t like American morality. More often it’s the other way around.

That is not to say that Europeans are superior to Americans. Both cultures have their strengths and weaknesses. Each would do well to listen to the morally based criticisms of the other instead of striking a pose of moral superiority (and yes, “we are not far behind” is a pose of moral superiority disguised as humility, because of course you think that *your *conservative brand of American culture would pull the U.S. back from the brink).

They’ve become an Islamicized, feminized

This is the first time I’ve heard that Islam is feminized. If it isn’t, how can the continent be Islamicized and feminized at the same time?

I know you’ll say that I’m nit-picking. Go ahead. Make all the excuses you like. I’m going to keep pointing out that your remarks are shot full of incoherence and self-contradiction. You are going on this moralistic rampage, but you can’t even keep your rant internally consistent.

Edwin

 

[Saint_Michael]

I know you’ll say that I’m nit-picking. Go ahead. Make all the excuses you like. I’m going to keep pointing out that your remarks are shot full of incoherence and self-contradiction. You are going on this moralistic rampage, but you can’t even keep your rant internally consistent.

Edwin

You can have duality, neither has to be all encompassing, you can have both very domiannt Islamic presences and feminizing presences at the same time, Europe is a prime example of this duality, until one wins out. Our nation has a HUGE conservative war hawk presence and morally bankrupt liberal presence, both are equally ruining the country. Why this is impossible for you to understand is beyond me.

 

[Eden]

I don’t live in Europe. I have spent some time there, however, which you apparently have not. (I am a British citizen but have spent my entire adult life in the U.S.)

Does having British citizenship qualify me to comment, too? Because I have dual American-British citizenship (my father is from England). I have lived in France and England and spent a summer in a Scandanavian country. It was my experience that the number of Europeans regularly attending church is insignificant, and those that do attend are old. It was rather depressing to attend Sunday Mass at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris and be sitting in the front pew with only about 30 people in attendance, considering the strong Catholic identity that France once had. I wonder how many of those at Mass were tourists? And, are you saying you were raised in Europe and have only lived in the U.S. in adulthood? That wasn’t what I understood from previous posts of yours.

 

[pro_universal]

Well, let’s see, according to the customary practice on this board, let’s evaluate Contarini:

1. He says moderate things about Islam
2. He criticizes America in comparison to Europe (a europe that is mysteriously supposed to be “implementing sharia at the demands of muslim aggressors!” yet at the same time relaxing all moral norms.)
3. He won’t admit that there’s a black/white good/evil relationship between the USA-Church-Christians-in-general and “them Muslims.”

The only possible explanation is…
…Contarini must be a Muslim.

 

[eleonardo]

Well, let’s see, according to the customary practice on this board, let’s evaluate Contarini:

1. He says moderate things about Islam
2. He criticizes America in comparison to Europe (a europe that is mysteriously supposed to be “implementing sharia at the demands of muslim aggressors!” yet at the same time relaxing all moral norms.)
3. He won’t admit that there’s a black/white good/evil relationship between the USA-Church-Christians-in-general and “them Muslims.”

The only possible explanation is…
…Contarini must be a Muslim.

You’re just ticked off, cuz we had you figured out

 

[eleonardo]

Does having British citizenship qualify me to comment, too? Because I have dual American-British citizenship (my father is from England). I have lived in France and England and spent a summer in a Scandanavian country. It was my experience that the number of Europeans regularly attending church is insignificant, and those that do attend are old. It was rather depressing to attend Sunday Mass at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris and be sitting in the front pew with only about 30 people in attendance, considering the strong Catholic identity that France once had. I wonder how many of those at Mass were tourists? And, are you saying you were raised in Europe and have only lived in the U.S. in adulthood? That wasn’t what I understood from previous posts of yours.

It’s true, less and less people go to church according to government sources. On the other hand, there is a strong movement of rebourn christian protestantism, especially from the side of the “immigrants”.
Then again in Italy or Croatia, which are Catholic countries, the churches are still pretty filled at Mass.

 

[Contarini]

You can have duality, neither has to be all encompassing, you can have both very domiannt Islamic presences and feminizing presences at the same time, Europe is a prime example of this duality, until one wins out. Our nation has a HUGE conservative war hawk presence and morally bankrupt liberal presence, both are equally ruining the country. Why this is impossible for you to understand is beyond me.

That’s not impossible to understand (I actually agree with your statement about the U.S. 100%, BTW, except that I’d say militarism is also “morally bankrupt”–the left and right are both bankrupt in different ways). My problem with your statements is that you insist on making huge generalizations with no qualification. Reality just isn’t like that.

I think the whole concept of “feminization” is utterly ludicrous, BTW–but that’s another fight.

Eden, I take your point–I agree that relatively few people go to church in Europe. But I don’t like using the term “insignificant.” God is not limited to save by many or by few. God was willing to save Sodom if there were ten righteous people there. My problem isn’t with the claim “Europe is largely secularized.” My problem is with the claim that just because only a minority of Europeans practice the Christian faith, therefore Christianity in Europe is dead and can be effectively dismissed.

I also question the claim that secular people are necessarily relativists. Secular British people in particular are often aggressive and intolerant moral absolutists. I think of the British businessman I met in Germany who kept referring to various nations and institutions (including the Catholic Church) as “utterly vile” or “the most wicked on the face of the earth.” I can’t imagine most secular Americans using that language. Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins (admittedly the former has lived in the U.S. for years, but his style of secularism is very British IMHO) are both infuriating and refreshing precisely because they make very straightforward, even simplistic moral judgments.

Finally, I did not claim to have been raised in Europe, and I’m sorry if my statement gave that impression. I was simply admitting that I hadn’t lived in Europe as an adult, not trying to be specific about how much time I’d spent there as a child.

I lived in Britain until just before my seventh birthday, and have been a U.S. resident ever since. I’ve been back to Britain a number of times since, but have never stayed for more than six weeks. I’ve visited several other Western European countries (France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Austria), but the only one I’ve spent much time in is Germany (one month in 2000; three months in 2003). I’ve spent a lot more time in Eastern Europe (particularly Romania), but that’s not as relevant for the purposes of this discussion.

Edwin

 

[Eden]

I lived in Britain until just before my seventh birthday, and have been a U.S. resident ever since.

Your original statement was misleading.

contarini:

I don’t live in Europe. I have spent some time there, however, which you apparently have not. (I am a British citizen but have spent my entire adult life in the U.S.)

But you’ve agreed it was misleading, with your clarification.

So, moving back to the topic of the decline of Christianity in Europe, I’m going to go with Pope Benedict XVI on this, as he has made his concern for the decline of the faith in Europe a priority of his pontificate.

I’ve travelled throughout most of Western Europe and the Czech Republic and Hungary in the East, as well. But it seems we have reached different conclusions on the state of Christianity in Europe. A sad observation that I made is that the great, old cathedrals and churches across Europe are thought of more as a part of the “old heritage” and as tourist spots to be promoted, than a place to worship.

There are some bright spots in this article from TIME Magazine, but the picture is mostly bleak:

The institutions of Christianity, of course, have long been in decline, but the consensus is that the pace has been quickening. “Parish life is essentially dead,” admits a senior Vatican official. Church attendance has dwindled by more than 30% in Britain since 1980. Over the same period, the percentage of the population claiming membership in a religious denomination has dropped more than 20% in Belgium, 18% in the Netherlands and 16% in France. Christianity remains Europe’s main religion, with about 550 million adherents. But the number of Europeans who identify as Catholic — by far the biggest denomination on the Continent — has fallen by more than a third since 1978.

Churches have always gone through periods when their influence is greater and periods when it was less. Now we are down. Christianity will be a minority. Nobody should close his eyes to that fact - Jobst Schone, historian and Lutheran bishop, Germany

time.com/time/europe/html/030616/story.html

 

[Contarini]

Your original statement was misleading.

I certainly didn’t intend any such thing, but looking back at it I can see how you would conclude that I was claiming extensive childhood residence in Europe (I am British enough that I feel odd saying “Europe” when I mean Britain!). The “time spent in Europe” to which I was referring was primarily my time studying/researching in Germany as an adult. But I’ve also visited Britain extensively.

Not that this is really about who has spent more time in Europe. St. Michael was making extremely sweeping claims on the basis of what appears to be zero personal experience, and I do think that is rather rude.

So, moving back to the topic of the decline of Christianity in Europe, I’m going to go with Pope Benedict XVI on this, as he has made his concern for the decline of the faith in Europe a priority of his pontificate.

You’ll get no disagreement from me. I don’t understand why you think we have different conclusions. The Pope obviously doesn’t think European Christianity is dead. That is all I am maintaining against St. Michael. Not that it’s not declining sharply, not that it’s not in serious trouble, but that it’s effectively dead.

Americans have always had this strong impulse to turn their backs on Europe as moribund (together with a morbid fascination with the civilization they claim to reject). That’s what I see in St. Michael’s posts, and that’s clearly not the Pope’s position.

I agree with you about the way historic churches are treated. The last time I was in Cologne Cathedral (spring 2003), I saw a man sitting on a side altar in order to be photographed. I was debating whether or not I should say something to him, but the “photo op” finished while I was still dithering about it. I was so angry that if I had spoken to him I probably would have started an incident. . . .

(Thinking about it, it may have been an altar rail he was sitting on, but I don’t think I would have gotten so mad if that was all. I know it seemed to me at the time that he was desecrating the altar by treating it as a picturesque backdrop for a tourist photo.)

Edwin

 

[Saint_Michael]

For what it’s worth I’ve been to Ireland three times (studied aborad), Italy twice, Prague and France. I traveled extensively in the military too to many foreign countries and amassed at least two years overseas.

I had no idea that you had to live in a country to be able to state a FACT that Christianity in Europe is in dire straights. Mass/Church attendance is pathetic in many European countries. Europe has a new God, the secular God. They worship the intelligensia and their own ideals and morals, as well as the almighty Euro. And the US isn’t far behind. These are facts, and I am entitled to my opinion whether it upsets some ex-pat British guy who left at 7 and thinks he’s the only one entitled to speak on the matter. I’m happy to see some people actually from Europe explain to him that yes Christianity is in big trouble in Europe.

 

[Contarini]

For what it’s worth I’ve been to Ireland three times (studied aborad), Italy twice, Prague and France. I traveled extensively in the military too to many foreign countries and amassed at least two years overseas.

I had no idea that you had to live in a country to be able to state a FACT that Christianity in Europe is in dire straights. Mass/Church attendance is pathetic in many European countries. Europe has a new God, the secular God. They worship the intelligensia and their own ideals and morals, as well as the almighty Euro. And the US isn’t far behind. These are facts, and I am entitled to my opinion whether it upsets some ex-pat British guy who left at 7 and thinks he’s the only one entitled to speak on the matter. I’m happy to see some people actually from Europe explain to him that yes Christianity is in big trouble in Europe.

Saint Michael,

I wanted to know if you were speaking from personal experience or not, because that does make a difference. I was not trying to create some sort of competition.

Nor have I ever suggested that I’m the only one entitled to speak on the matter. I can simply say that I have worshipped in European churches, and I object to the assumption that European Christians somehow don’t “count” because they are a small minority.

I don’t know how many times I have to repeat that I am not in the least denying that European Christianity is in numerical decline or that it is in serious trouble. I am denying that it is “dead” or that Europe is “essentially completely lost.”

As long as there is one Christian in Europe, Europe is not lost.

We aren’t arguing over the statistics here. We are arguing over what counts as “essentially completely lost.” I challenge your willingness to write off European Christianity just because it’s fallen on hard times. I brought up the issue of personal experience because obviously someone who doesn’t identify personally in any way with European Christianity (but simply views it from afar as an alien and moribund thing) is going to find it easier to write it off. I am not claiming to have some great expertise on the matter. But I have received the Eucharist in Europe, and that’s enough for me. As long as there’s one Mass (I would say one Protestant Eucharist either, but we won’t argue about that) being said somewhere in Europe, it’s blasphemy to say that Europe is lost.

Edwin

 

[eleonardo]

As long as there is one Christian in Europe, Europe is not lost.

Edwin

Well, I’m living proof that Europe is not lost then!

 

[Contarini]

Well, I’m living proof that Europe is not lost then!

Exactly!

Consider this fact: If Ramsay MacMullen is to be believed (I use his figures because they’re the only ones I’ve heard from a scholar with solid credentials), Christians made up about 10% of the Roman Empire before the time of Constantine. Arguably everything else–the glories of Christendom–were to a great extent the result of state patronage. We can argue all day long about whether this was good or bad–I have honestly mixed feelings about it. But at the very least, we can say that that 10% represented folks who came to believe in Christianity when the odds were all against it. If we have to go back to that after centuries of ruling the roost, I’m not sure it’s a bad thing.

Edwin