Multiple Incarnations, Aliens, and Mariology

[brycelaliberte]

I recently read a book entitled The Logic of God Incarnate by Thomas V. Morris, which included a chapter on the speculation of multiple incarnations of God the Son.

The speculation is spurned by the question of extraterrestrial life; if there are other sentient beings in the universe, and these sentient beings have sinned and so require salvation, could God the Son “take on their flesh” and so become Incarnate as a being of their race just as God has done in ours?

While I would suppose that it would be logical for God to choose to save an extraterrestrial race by the same means, especially based upon the reasoning in St. Anselm’s Cur Deus Homo which discusses why God became man, I wonder what consequences this has for our Mariology?

For instance, Catholic theology posits that Mary is the Queen of Heaven;

CCC 966

“Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death.”

I believe this could be coherent, provided either;

1. Mary is the only Queen and enjoys not only a unique place of exaltation by Christ among the human race, but a unique placement among all contingent beings that have ever existed or will ever exist; or
2. Mary enjoys a unique place of exaltation among the human race, but not unique to all other contingent beings (there are “other Queens of Heaven”).

I am of course assuming that extraterrestrial sentient races would be similar in social structure to our own (and based on evolution and/or our theology on contingent beings, this could be justified).

I believe (1) is improbable, for certainly there are potentially infinite races of contingent beings, especially if there were to have been other universes that God creates. So, I would default to (2) as the most likely true assertion.

What do you think?

 

[Vaeavilla]

Well, just to push you on your topic, what we humans have come to discover is tiny to what is there in the vast Universe. To us here down under with the vast blue skys of our oceania, we speculate on more beings of the universe than you up north. The Incarnation will always be a One for All. We are a specie of carne, the others in the universe have something in common with our carnation but they are more sophisticated and more wise and have discover more than us. Keep up the topic
Cheerio
Vaea villa-Samoa

 

[Benadam]

I recently read a book entitled The Logic of God Incarnate by Thomas V. Morris, which included a chapter on the speculation of multiple incarnations of God the Son.

The speculation is spurned by the question of extraterrestrial life; if there are other sentient beings in the universe, and these sentient beings have sinned and so require salvation, could God the Son “take on their flesh” and so become Incarnate as a being of their race just as God has done in ours?

While I would suppose that it would be logical for God to choose to save an extraterrestrial race by the same means, especially based upon the reasoning in St. Anselm’s Cur Deus Homo which discusses why God became man, I wonder what consequences this has for our Mariology?

For instance, Catholic theology posits that Mary is the Queen of Heaven;

CCC 966

I believe this could be coherent, provided either;

1. Mary is the only Queen and enjoys not only a unique place of exaltation by Christ among the human race, but a unique placement among all contingent beings that have ever existed or will ever exist; or
2. Mary enjoys a unique place of exaltation among the human race, but not unique to all other contingent beings (there are “other Queens of Heaven”).

I am of course assuming that extraterrestrial sentient races would be similar in social structure to our own (and based on evolution and/or our theology on contingent beings, this could be justified).

I believe (1) is improbable, for certainly there are potentially infinite races of contingent beings, especially if there were to have been other universes that God creates. So, I would default to (2) as the most likely true assertion.

What do you think?

What of the hypostatic union if the Son of God could go where Jesus couldn’t?

 

[Luke65]

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” (Genesis 1:1)

“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away” (Revelation 21:1)

Love the truth - it’s much more beautiful than the lie. God bless.

 

[Areopagite]

Well done, brycelaliberte. I have thought on this topic much, and Mary is one of the biggest issues that comes up.

1. Mary is the only Queen and enjoys not only a unique place of exaltation by Christ among the human race, but a unique placement among all contingent beings that have ever existed or will ever exist

This would entail the Alien Mothers of God being not as exalted as the Mother of Christ. Would this make sense? I don’t know. This is assuming of course they even have mothers. But … yeah, I have no idea.

1. Mary enjoys a unique place of exaltation among the human race, but not unique to all other contingent beings (there are “other Queens of Heaven”).

Indeed, can there be more than one “Queen of Heaven.” My inclination would be to say no. This is because “Queen” has a monarchical understanding to it, and hence if there were multiple Queens, Heaven could turn into a Oligarchy. However, the true Monarch is Christ (just as the true ruler in a kingdom would be the King and not the Queen) … so maybe that makes sense. However, when a King would have multiple wives, not all of them were called “Queen” … instead the Mother of the King was considered the Queen. And there would always be just one Queen Mother. However, in this case, God would have multiple Mothers and thus multiple Queens … right?

Also, the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. Other Incarnations would found different Churches (if any Church at all … I suppose). That’s something to think about too.

I believe (1) is improbable, for certainly there are potentially infinite races of contingent beings, especially if there were to have been other universes that God creates.

That’s a pretty good point. Unless those different creatures go to a different heaven altogether. That would be weird though.

So, I would default to (2) as the most likely true assertion.

Perhaps. It seems a little weird though to think that there are “multiple Queens of Heaven.” On the other hand, maybe not.

Good questions. I hoped I contributed something to your thoughts … even though I didn’t really say anything. Thanks, though.

What of the hypostatic union if the Son of God could go where Jesus couldn’t?

It is true that wherever Jesus is, there the Son of God is too. But wherever the Son of God is, Jesus is not necessarily there as well.

If I’m a heretic, please tell me.

 

[Benadam]

It is true that wherever Jesus is, there the Son of God is too. But wherever the Son of God is, Jesus is not necessarily there as well.

If I’m a heretic, please tell me.

:nerd:hmmm Nature is before person. But is the second person of the Trinity Jesus? Or is Jesus human and divine nature of the second person of the Trinity? I know the Son of God pre-existed Jesus. But the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[brycelaliberte]

Indeed, can there be more than one “Queen of Heaven.” My inclination would be to say no. This is because “Queen” has a monarchical understanding to it, and hence if there were multiple Queens, Heaven could turn into a Oligarchy. However, the true Monarch is Christ (just as the true ruler in a kingdom would be the King and not the Queen) … so maybe that makes sense. However, when a King would have multiple wives, not all of them were called “Queen” … instead the Mother of the King was considered the Queen. And there would always be just one Queen Mother. However, in this case, God would have multiple Mothers and thus multiple Queens … right?

Right. So, unless we have the ability to describe the hypothetical mothers of the Son in grades of greater and lesser grandeur, then the only title we could properly use (assuming there being other theotokos’) would be Queen.

That’s a pretty good point. Unless those different creatures go to a different heaven altogether. That would be weird though.

I think that’d be contradictory to the reason of God creating at all. So yes, I would expect that, if there are aliens, then we would meet them in Heaven.

It is true that wherever Jesus is, there the Son of God is too. But wherever the Son of God is, Jesus is not necessarily there as well.

I’ve heard the formulation “Jesus is God the Son, but God the Son is not Jesus,” meaning that we can identify Jesus as God the Son, but we cannot identify God the Son as Jesus.

CCC 461;

Taking up St. John’s expression, “The Word became flesh”, the Church calls “Incarnation” the fact that the Son of God assumed a human nature

 

[Siddhartha]

I’ve heard the formulation “Jesus is God the Son, but God the Son is not Jesus,” meaning that we can identify Jesus as God the Son, but we cannot identify God the Son as Jesus.

Yes, but, right now, God the Son is Jesus. God the Son would not be able to incarnate into an alien species without losing His human nature and taking on alien nature. And once God the Son loses human nature, God the Son is no longer the hypostatic union of human and divine nature.

 

[Areopagite]

Yes, but, right now, God the Son is Jesus. God the Son would not be able to incarnate into an alien species without losing His human nature and taking on alien nature. And once God the Son loses human nature, God the Son is no longer the hypostatic union of human and divine nature.

No, He would not lose His human nature, otherwise it must be believed that God can be limited by created things. See this post, which even has as Summa quote talking about this:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5505451&postcount=11

 

[Benadam]

No, He would not lose His human nature, otherwise it must be believed that God can be limited by created things. See this post, which even has as Summa quote talking about this:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5505451&postcount=11

Hello again Aeropagite. Good to read you again. Your posts contribute substance and educational value too.

Of course we distinguish what God ‘can’ do from what God did do. I think as it pertains to this discussion it would be constructive to distinguish what God could do from what God would do.

Maybe just as God challenged man to believe in One God and the Jews to believe that One God could walk among them as a member of their community He could challenge us to accept ‘a’ Son of God other than Jesus.

 

[Areopagite]

Hello again Aeropagite. Good to read you again. Your posts contribute substance and educational value too.

Thanks, Benadam … nice seeing you again too. I recently re-read a previous alien post where you explained the possibility that aliens could be irrational and yet genetically programmed to construct advanced technology (like how ants are programmed to make ant hills). That was a brilliant idea. Even if it’s not true … it still was inspirationally creative … something I would have never thought of in all my theories on this subject. Just wanted to let you know … again.

Maybe just as God challenged man to believe in One God and the Jews to believe that One God could walk among them as a member of their community He could challenge us to accept ‘a’ Son of God other than Jesus.

This could be the case … depending on what you’re talking about. I think that it is possible that God could challenge mankind to accept the *possibility *that God incarnated Himself more than once (since there’s arguably nothing contradictory to revelation about that) … but I would say that God would never make mankind in general acknowledge any other incarnate being other than Christ as God. This is because I don’t think Public Revelation allows for this. Now, perhaps a human might be shown some private revelation telling him to worship an alien too (which would be kind of weird), but I think this would never be approved (for everyone) in the Church. Maybe?

So even if God did become incarnate as an alien, it would never be the public obligation for a Catholic to worship him (but only when he has a private revelation about it). I can’t say the same for the aliens, for they (presumably) would have been given a unique set of revelation regarding their savior … and hence, it WOULD be a public obligation for them to worship the God incarnate as an alien. Yeah, I know, this is kind of weird.

What do you think? Did that make sense?

 

[Benadam]

Thanks, Benadam … nice seeing you again too. I recently re-read a previous alien post where you explained the possibility that aliens could be irrational and yet genetically programmed to construct advanced technology (like how ants are programmed to make ant hills). That was a brilliant idea. Even if it’s not true … it still was inspirationally creative … something I would have never thought of in all my theories on this subject. Just wanted to let you know … again.

This could be the case … depending on what you’re talking about. I think that it is possible that God could challenge mankind to accept the *possibility *that God incarnated Himself more than once (since there’s arguably nothing contradictory to revelation about that) … but I would say that God would never make mankind in general acknowledge any other incarnate being other than Christ as God. This is because I don’t think Public Revelation allows for this. Now, perhaps a human might be shown some private revelation telling him to worship an alien too (which would be kind of weird), but I think this would never be approved (for everyone) in the Church. Maybe?

So even if God did become incarnate as an alien, it would never be the public obligation for a Catholic to worship him (but only when he has a private revelation about it). I can’t say the same for the aliens, for they (presumably) would have been given a unique set of revelation regarding their savior … and hence, it WOULD be a public obligation for them to worship the God incarnate as an alien. Yeah, I know, this is kind of weird.

What do you think? Did that make sense?

Areopagite, Thanks! Makes alot of sense. Actually makes me believe if it were true we would never know it. If we did come to know it though…

You know the universality , hmmm what did you call it…The cosmic? Terms like ‘creation’ and the new heavens and earth have the sense of meaning everything God created. When I gather all things to myself" Making all things New" These terms would evaporate into relativeness.