Multiple "Raptures"

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Greetings to all! I am currently having a rigorious discourse with a multiple rapture believer, and wanted to get some peoples takes and comments on his latest response.

"I’m afraid you’ve been deceived about this doctrine. It did not come about by Darby or anyone in the 1800’s. Your claim can be disproven with one finding dating before then. But there have been Several! This being a quite nice one:

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.
-Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627{a.d.})

read about it more in detail here:
raptureready. com/featured/ice/tt14. html

here are Some great works of various topics about the rapture with unquestionable evidences and proofs. raptureready. com/featured/ice/ttcol. html

And it is clear throughout the New Testament that the pre-trib concept was believed in and taught.

Now I don’t know why you quoted the verse in Mark, I agree no one knows the day or hour of the rapture, but we it is clear that we do know and are supposed to know the specific signs and events that tell us we are living in the last generation before the actual 2nd coming of Jesus to earth, not to be confused with the rapture, they clearly have separate passages with separate defining traits that can not be ran together. ready Mr. Thomas Ice’s work on the address I provided, as many arguments are dealt with in great detail."
 
Yes, the dead in Christ and then believers will be the first to rise when Jesus comes back.

1 Thess 4

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

But I think we’ll be all raised on the last day.

John 6

39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

40"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

54"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

God bless you!
-BHM
 
1edyson said:
Greetings to all! I am currently having a rigorious discourse with a multiple rapture believer, and wanted to get some peoples takes and comments on his latest response.

"I’m afraid you’ve been deceived about this doctrine. It did not come about by Darby or anyone in the 1800’s. Your claim can be disproven with one finding dating before then. But there have been Several! This being a quite nice one:

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.
-Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627{a.d.})

read about it more in detail here:
raptureready. com/featured/ice/tt14. html

here are Some great works of various topics about the rapture with unquestionable evidences and proofs. raptureready. com/featured/ice/ttcol. html

And it is clear throughout the New Testament that the pre-trib concept was believed in and taught.

Now I don’t know why you quoted the verse in Mark, I agree no one knows the day or hour of the rapture, but we it is clear that we do know and are supposed to know the specific signs and events that tell us we are living in the last generation before the actual 2nd coming of Jesus to earth, not to be confused with the rapture, they clearly have separate passages with separate defining traits that can not be ran together. ready Mr. Thomas Ice’s work on the address I provided, as many arguments are dealt with in great detail."
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I’m not as versed as the multiude here. You will receive the answers you need eventually, but I will tell you, that site is hugely anti-Catholic. Have you seen their message board! :eek: Scary, scary people…

My advice for you right now is to not even bother with them. They are very set in their ways, & very hateful for the most part. There’s a gentleman on CAF that knows what I’m talking about.

And so as I say, all I can do is pray for them:gopray2:
 
All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.
-Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)
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Well other than the obvious issue of not having a clue who wrote this or when, some context would be interesting.

This statement, taken alone, could easily be in alignment with Catholic teaching.

What “tribulation” is being avoided.

Even if you accept authorship and dating this is less than clear.

Is this all they’ve got before 1800?

One obscure reference?

This seems to be ansered well here.

preteristarchive.com/dEmEnTiA/2001_macpherson_deceiving.html

Chuck
 
here was my response…direct me if I’m straying…
Thank you for the interpretation! It’s always good to see that other people have reasons for their beliefs…
Like I mentioned, I believe in the Rapture described in Scripture and taught authentically by the Church that Christ founded. With regards to the quote to Pseudo-Ephraem, i again repeat I believe that Rapture found in the Scriptures, the inspired inerrant word of God. Though this may be beliefs found in early Christian History, this does not guarantee that it is authentic doctrine, but simply a tradition of man. But let’s even allow the P-E as marker of somewhat divinely inspired revelation, "
“So where does P-E place the rapture? The answer is found in his last section (10) where he writes that after “the sign of the Son of Man” when “the Lord shall appear with great power,” the “angelic trumpet precedes him, which shall sound and declare: Arise, O sleeping ones, arise, meet Christ, because the hour of judgment has come!” (Like Morgan Edwards and Manuel Lacunza, Pseudo-Ephraem has the nasty, non-pretrib habit of blending the rapture with the final advent!”" www. preteristarchive. com/dEmEnTiA/2001_macpherson_deceiving. html .

Like all things lets take quotes from anyone in context, and not simply cut and paste what suits our private interpretation that could be leading us astray. Also Ephraem of Nisibis, who the P-E can be attributed to lived around when? Circa 306-373, a person who died almost 30 years prior the recognized completion of the Canonization of Scripture, again, I believe in the inerrant words of the Scripture and the traditions taught authentically by the Church. Not the words of a supposed “Pseduo” meaning we’re not sure that this is really what he wrote,or if it even was this Ehpraem of Nisibis.

I quoted Mark, because the proper exegesis from the passage is not to watch for “signs” of the end, but to live as if we are in the end times, and take up our Crosses Daily. But back to scripture!
John 6:40
“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day”
John 6:44
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:54
"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. "
Not on the last day before the 1st Rapture, and then again on the last day before the 2nd rapture, and so on.
How should scripture be changed to better fit the arguments of the non-scriptural authors you quoted?
5 Myths About the Rapture
www. catholicculture. org/culture/library/view. cfm?id=5788&repos=1&subrepos=0&searchid=35422
 
"But in those days after that tribulation the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in the clouds’ with great power and glory, and then he will send out the angels and gather (his) elect from the four winds, from the end of the earth to the end of the sky. (Mark 13:24-27)

In Matt. 13:24-30;36-43 Jesus says the wicked and the righteous will co-exist until the end of the world, when they will be judged, and either inherit eternal life, or be thrown into eternal fire.
 
According to the Gospel accounts, those who are “left” are the saved. The account by Luke is even clearer than the one in Matthew in this explanation in chapter 17.

Jesus says, "“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man.” (v. 26).

Just as in Noah’s day? Who was left behind after the flood (see also 1 Peter 3:19-21)? It was Noah and his family, the RIGHTEOUS.

What’s more, as in the Matthew account, Jesus states: “I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”(v.34-35)

But here’s where we see that it is those TAKEN who are the damned. The people listening ask:

“‘Where, Lord?’ they asked.”

Obviously, they are not asking “where are they left behind?” They are asking about those “taken.” Jesus replies, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.” (v. 37)

It sure doesn’t sound like HEAVEN to me!!!

What’s more,look at Jesus’ prayer to the Father regarding not only His Apostles and disciples in that day but also for all generations who will believe through them (cf. John 17:20):

“My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.” (John 17:15).

There are only TWO COMINGS of Christ. And the one in Thessalonians is visible for ALL to see and hear… doesn’t sound like a “secret rapture to me.”

I think the whole notion of the “Rapture” flies smack in the face of the Bible. But hey, it makes Protestant authors rich with the books they sell and the terror they spread through a “gospel” of fear… and not one of love.
 
And it is clear throughout the New Testament that the pre-trib concept was believed in and taught.

**** W * R * O * N * G * !!!*

Jesus said in Matthew 13 that BOTH wheat and tares would grow together until the harvest. He did NOT say that the wheat would be gathered up a week (or 1007 days) before harvest time.

Furthermore, in that same chapter, in the parable of the dragnet, it’s the BAD fish that go sailing through the air.

You believe what you want to believe. You will any way, not because of the evidence, but despite it.

I’ll believe Our Lord Jesus Christ and His holy Word!**
 
Hey guys,
You all should read “The Rapture Trap” by Paul Thigpen (I think that’s his name). It dispels the “rapture” theory, because that’s what it is, a theory. None of the early Christians believed in the rapture. If they did, where is the documentation? The rapture is a pure distortion of scripture, period!
 
bpbasilphx said:
And it is clear throughout the New Testament that the pre-trib concept was believed in and taught.

**** W * R * O * N * G * !!!***

Jesus said in Matthew 13 that BOTH wheat and tares would grow together until the harvest. He did NOT say that the wheat would be gathered up a week (or 1007 days) before harvest time.

Furthermore, in that same chapter, in the parable of the dragnet, it’s the BAD fish that go sailing through the air.

You believe what you want to believe. You will any way, not because of the evidence, but despite it.

I’ll believe Our Lord Jesus Christ and His holy Word!
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Amen, I agree. I’m trying to be a charitable as possible to this person that I’m speaking with, but he is very much a pre-trib die hard. So my aim is to simply outline my belief on the “rapture” and what the church teaches, and let the Holy Spirit do the rest, not to be RIGHT, but to make sure God’s Truth is proclaimed.
 
By_His_Mercy said:
.

1 Thess 4

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
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Paul’s testimony would seem to be clear on a Rapture event.

Those here who teach there will not be a Rapture, would seem to be guilty of subtracting from Sacred Scriptures.
 
broski234 said:
None of the early Christians believed in the rapture. If they did, where is the documentation? The rapture is a pure distortion of scripture, period!
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Paul taught it. All early Christians believed Christ’s return was imminent.
 
BRB said:
Paul taught it. All early Christians believed Christ’s return was imminent.
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Paul did not teach anything of the sort. Catholics and Non-Catholics alike can agree that only the Father knows when his son will return. As for 1Thess 4:13-18 (notice I list the entire section of the discourse Paul was giving), the Thessolonians were inquiring about the dead and what will happen to them since they died before the 2nd Coming. If you know exactly what the rapture teaches then you know he will come secretly to snatch the believers and then come once more to claim his Kingdom on Earth. First, this is a hoax! The bible only talks of 2 comings of Christ. The first time has already come. If you go on the rapture teaching, then he comes secretly and then he comes AGAIN to claim his Kingdom on Earth. Two things are wrong in this. A) That would be a total of 3 times by simple math. So by that standard its false! B) If he calls up all the believers, why worry about the non believers in coming to claim his Kingdom on Earth? It makes no sense! There is not one piece of writing that would support this notion before the 17th century. In fact, this idea was never heard of before then. Increase Mather was the one who planted this distorted seed in the first place in the 17th century. As someone previously wrote, the bible says that the believers will be the ones left behind, “as in the days of Noah”. So IF you follow scripture, then you would know that the non-believers are the ones snatched away. Therefore, the True believers are left to be tested, hence, the 7yrs of trials and tribulations. I could go on but for the sake of everyone reading this long reply, I won’t.
 
The Bible teaches the following about the manner of Christ’s Coming:
  1. He will return Once and Only Once. Sacred Scripture teaches only one return of Christ.
  2. Christ’s return will be Public and Visible. “Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him”(Rev1:7). “All the tribes of the Earth…will see the Son of man coming on the clouds” (Matt 24:30). His return will be like lightning shining from east to west (matt 24:27). He will be announced by a “loud trumpet call” (matt 24:31). And “all the angels” will accompany Him (matt 25:31).
    3)He will return “coming on the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory” (matt 24:30). “And when he had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said…'This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven”’ (acts 1: 9-11).
  3. Christ’s return will bring about the end of the world and the final judgement (Matt 25). " When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will seperate them one from another…"(Matt 25: 31-32).
As you can see, what the Bible teaches about the manner of Christ’s return rules out invisible comings and secret raptures. ----Directly taken from Beginning Apologetics 8 The End Times

The Rapture is nothing more than dispensationalism. It gives a false view of the Church, Israel, 1 Thess 4, interpretation of matt 24:38-41 and there is no record in History to support this theory.
 
BRB said:
Paul taught it. All early Christians believed Christ’s return was imminent.
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Just because one thinks Christ’s return in imminent, it does not mean they believe in the “rapture.” The two have nothing to do with each other. It’s a man-made doctrine.
 
broski234 said:
The Bible teaches the following about the manner of Christ’s Coming:
  1. He will return Once and Only Once. Sacred Scripture teaches only one return of Christ.
  2. Christ’s return will be Public and Visible. “Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him”(Rev1:7). “All the tribes of the Earth…will see the Son of man coming on the clouds” (Matt 24:30). His return will be like lightning shining from east to west (matt 24:27). He will be announced by a “loud trumpet call” (matt 24:31). And “all the angels” will accompany Him (matt 25:31).
    3)He will return “coming on the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory” (matt 24:30). “And when he had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said…'This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven”’ (acts 1: 9-11).
  3. Christ’s return will bring about the end of the world and the final judgement (Matt 25). " When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will seperate them one from another…"(Matt 25: 31-32).
.
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Yes … this is what is scriptural & what Paul refers to in Eph.

Christ reappears in Glory & Christians caught up (Raptured) to meet.

Only a one time event … not the Hal Lindsey secret stuff, of which he has made millions …
 
BRB said:
Yes … this is what is scriptural & what Paul refers to in Eph.

Christ reappears in Glory & Christians caught up (Raptured) to meet.

Only a one time event … not the Hal Lindsey secret stuff, of which he has made millions …
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Then maybe we should use another word or phrase other than “rapture”, maybe the 2nd Coming. It seems as if we are talking about the same thing, however, the rapture theory is what I said a few threads ago. Again, no one ever used that term before the 17th or 18th Century. They referred to this as the 2nd Coming. And that is it. No more comings.
 
broski234 said:
Then maybe we should use another word or phrase other than “rapture”, maybe the 2nd Coming. It seems as if we are talking about the same thing,.
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Amer. Heritage Dict. … … Rapture /// The transporting of a person from one place to another … especially to heaven.
 
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