Multiplying the fish and loaves

[hannajomar]

The point is, God performed a miracle without telling us exactly how He did it, so why waste time speculating on what God has chosen to keep secret.

I don’t think this question is a waste of time, and obviously the OP didn’t think it was a waste of time either. Many of the educated responses in this thread have helped me to understand a bit of regular life of Jesus and the society in which He lived.

I do get irritated on this forum when people get criticized for the question they asked. I often read questions and discussions which don’t interest me, and which I don’t see the point in discussing. I simply move on to something that interests me while respecting that the subject matter is more important to others.

 

[Rainaldo]

This was not the situation in my case. Without going into details (since that is outside the scope of this thread), let’s just say that I came to believe Sola Scriptura. Also, thanks in large part to Tim Staples and my brother (who is constantly trying to bring me back into the bondage of Rome), I have come to understand Calvinism, and firmly believe in all 5 points

As far as trying to “understand exatly what happened in the situation”, if God doesn’t reveal it, then the very best answer would be nothing more than a guess on our part. I could say that the God who created everything out of nothing also created broiled fish and fresh baked bread out of nothing in order to feed the crowd. Is this what happened? Since Scripture doesn’t say so, I have no way to say this is more than just a possibility. Someone else might say that a fish monger and baker are missing some freshly cooked products. The point is, God performed a miracle without telling us exactly how He did it, so why waste time speculating on what God has chosen to keep secret.

Fascinating. I came “into the bondage of Rome” by asking questions from within a Sola Scriptura framework. One of the things that struck me about Catholicism is its fearless embrace of speculative theology, an investigation into what can be deduced from what is explicitly revealed.

Besides it is antecedently improbable that a religion designed to be embraced by all humanity and to last until the end of time would remain in a state of crystallized minimalism.

 

[Layp3rs0n]

Granted they were cooked, but were they unique individuals? Or clones?

I have wondered this myaelf and I think this makes sense: The multiplication of bread and fish come almost immediately prior to the bread of life discourse. “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Because the glorified Body if Christ can be divided without injury and each particle of the Host is all of Jesus. He can be in many places physically at once. That may be the very point of the division of the loaves and fish. To prepare them for instruction on the Eucharist. He was giving them a clue. So, imo they were all eating the SAME fish and bread, not individuals! Thoughts?

 

[Rainaldo]

I have wondered this myaelf and I think this makes sense: The multiplication of bread and fish come almost immediately prior to the bread of life discourse. “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Because the glorified Body if Christ can be divided without injury and each particle of the Host is all of Jesus. He can be in many places physically at once. That may be the very point of the division of the loaves and fish. To prepare them for instruction on the Eucharist. He was giving them a clue. So, imo they were all eating the SAME fish and bread, not individuals! Thoughts?

Then it must have been the same individual in many places.

But why do the miracle twice?

 

[Layp3rs0n]

Then it must have been the same individual in many places.

But why do the miracle twice?

I dunno, drive the point home maybe.

 

[Loveolivia]

http://www.castoffdebt.comlol

 

[teeboy]

It could have been that the feeding was a spiritual feeding. Just as Jesus “raised” Lazarus via his spirit, he could have “fed” the people with his spirit.

 

[TimothyH]

It could have been that the feeding was a spiritual feeding. Just as Jesus “raised” Lazarus via his spirit, he could have “fed” the people with his spirit.

I believe it was physical, but also spiritual. Consider what the numbers mean.

Jesus feeds five thousand with five loaves and two fish in all four Gospels (Matthew 14:13-21, Mark 6:31-44, Luke 9:10-17 and John 6:5-15).

and he ordered the crowds to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish, and looking up to heaven, he said the blessing, broke the loaves, and gave them to the disciples, who in turn gave them to the crowds. They all ate and were satisfied, and they picked up the fragments left over—twelve wicker baskets full. Those who ate were about five thousand men, not counting women and children. (Matthew 14:19-21)

This was done in Israel and all present were Jews. Five represents the first five books in the Hebrew Bible or the Jewish Law of Moses. Two represents the two pillars of Jewish teaching - the law and the prophets. Jesus is feeding the Jews with the fullness of revelation from both the law and the prophets. Here Jesus has twelve baskets left over, the same number of tribes in Israel. Remember that the ten northern tribes had never returned from the Babylonian exile and so the twelve baskets left over represents the return of the ten tribes and the reunification of all twelve tribes under their new king.

Jesus then moves to Galille which is not Jewish land and feeds four thousand non-Jews with seven loaves and has seven baskets left over (Mark 8:1-9 and Matthew 15:32-39).

Jesus said to them, “How many loaves do you have?” “Seven,” they replied, “and a few fish.” He ordered the crowd to sit down on the ground. Then he took the seven loaves and the fish, gave thanks, broke the loaves, and gave them to the disciples, who in turn gave them to the crowds. They all ate and were satisfied. They picked up the fragments left over—seven baskets full. Those who ate were four thousand men, not counting women and children. (Matthew 15:34-38)

Four represents the four corners of the earth and so four thousand Gentiles represents the fullness of the Gentile nations. Seven represents perfection and so Jesus feeding four thousand non-Jews with seven loaves and having seven baskets left over represents his brining the fullness of all Gentiles to perfection.

Again, I believed it actually happened, but there is a deep spiritual and theological message behind the text and the numbers tell us a lot.

-Tim-

 

[teeboy]

I believe it was physical, but also spiritual. Consider what the numbers mean.

Jesus feeds five thousand with five loaves and two fish in all four Gospels (Matthew 14:13-21, Mark 6:31-44, Luke 9:10-17 and John 6:5-15).

and he ordered the crowds to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish, and looking up to heaven, he said the blessing, broke the loaves, and gave them to the disciples, who in turn gave them to the crowds. They all ate and were satisfied, and they picked up the fragments left over—twelve wicker baskets full. Those who ate were about five thousand men, not counting women and children. (Matthew 14:19-21)

This was done in Israel and all present were Jews. Five represents the first five books in the Hebrew Bible or the Jewish Law of Moses. Two represents the two pillars of Jewish teaching - the law and the prophets. Jesus is feeding the Jews with the fullness of revelation from both the law and the prophets. Here Jesus has twelve baskets left over, the same number of tribes in Israel. Remember that the ten northern tribes had never returned from the Babylonian exile and so the twelve baskets left over represents the return of the ten tribes and the reunification of all twelve tribes under their new king.

Jesus then moves to Galille which is not Jewish land and feeds four thousand non-Jews with seven loaves and has seven baskets left over (Mark 8:1-9 and Matthew 15:32-39).

Jesus said to them, “How many loaves do you have?” “Seven,” they replied, “and a few fish.” He ordered the crowd to sit down on the ground. Then he took the seven loaves and the fish, gave thanks, broke the loaves, and gave them to the disciples, who in turn gave them to the crowds. They all ate and were satisfied. They picked up the fragments left over—seven baskets full. Those who ate were four thousand men, not counting women and children. (Matthew 15:34-38)

Four represents the four corners of the earth and so four thousand Gentiles represents the fullness of the Gentile nations. Seven represents perfection and so Jesus feeding four thousand non-Jews with seven loaves and having seven baskets left over represents his brining the fullness of all Gentiles to perfection.

Again, I believed it actually happened, but there is a deep spiritual and theological message behind the text and the numbers tell us a lot.

-Tim-

Thanks.
Excellent.

With regard to feeding the Gentiles… 4 plus 7 is 11. Does 11 represent the 11 of 12 apostles who did not betray Jesus? The 12th being Judas.