Murder or Premarital Sex?

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littletherese3

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Which do you think is the most immoral, murder or premarital sex?
In school today, about 3 people thought that it was premarital sex and 25 thought murder. What do you think?
 
God sees both as serious sin. Are you asking for my personal opinion, or do you want God’s opinion? In my own opinion, murder is the worst of the two. But to God, who’s opinion is all that really matters, both are of equal value. Both are sin, and both get in the way of our relationship to him.

I guess it boils down to the question of obedience. Do we obey God when He says no, or do we disobey Him and sin?
 
They are both grave sins. I’m not sure I understand the point of trying to rank them in gravity. Is this somehow setting up the argument that premarital sex is acceptable because it isn’t “as bad as” murder? That is a logical fallacy.
 
littletherese3 said:
Which do you think is the most immoral, murder or premarital sex?
In school today, about 3 people thought that it was premarital sex and 25 thought murder. What do you think?
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They are both mortal sins and can both lead to damnation if not repented and confessed. That said, murder is clearly more serious.

St. Thomas Acquinas has a ranking of the sins of lust by gravity. I believe his order (from most serious) was 1) bestiality 2) homosexual sex 3) masturbation 4) adultery 5) simple fornication

God Bless
 
bilop said:
They are both mortal sins and can both lead to damnation if not repented and confessed. That said, murder is clearly more serious.

St. Thomas Acquinas has a ranking of the sins of lust by gravity. I believe his order (from most serious) was 1) bestiality 2) homosexual sex 3) masturbation 4) adultery 5) simple fornication

God Bless
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Common sense tells me that if this is a valid list then masturbation should be the lowest on the list.
 
This question is illogical. Grave sin is grave sin. If done with knowledge and intent, either can send you to hell.

Ask the teacher who posed this question another question: “Is it worse to go to hell for murder or to go to hell for fornication?”
 
I’m shocked that it obvious that murder is the worse sin…

The reason fornication is a sin is because it disrupts God’s plan for our lives and how families should work. If someone is dead, they won’t ever have any kids or raise any family at all. You have to be alive to enjoy the benefits of God’s plan for marriage.
 
That_one_guy said:
Common sense tells me that if this is a valid list then masturbation should be the lowest on the list.
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No, not according to Aquinas, and traditional moral theology. You are falling prey to modern secular viewpoints.

Fornication, and even adultery observe the correct use of the sexual faculties, but in an incorrect context. Said another way, male/female intercourse is not inherently evil, just restricted to marriage.

On the other hand, masturbation, sodomy, or bestiality, are incorrect uses of the sexual faculties. There is no context in which they are not evil. Therefore, Aquinas judges them to be worse sins. I tend to agree.

Furthermore, fornication is unlike to distort one’s sexual viewpoint, while masturbation, particularly when coupled with pornography, can dement one’s reason as to sex, and lead to grave difficulties in having a correct sexual relationship within marriage.

You can find St. Thomas arguments here. Warning, he is quite dense, and requires careful reading. Remember, the “sin against nature” usually refers to masturbation, though sometimes include sodomy.

newadvent.org/summa/3154.htm

God Bless
 
Murder is the taking of another’s life. Fornication is a grave sin and kills one’s soul and involves another soul as does adultery. Which is worse? They are equal, I think…

It is a good question and poses a very difficult dilemma. We all know that adultery is very bad and that murder is the ultimate sin but, I guess, when looking at the terrible things that go on in this world, a bit of “loving” is not too bad. I’m not condoning but playing Devils Advocate.

No one said it would be easy to live a Christian life, especially our Lord Himself.
 
bilop said:
No, not according to Aquinas, and traditional moral theology. You are falling prey to modern secular viewpoints.

Fornication, and even adultery observe the correct use of the sexual faculties, but in an incorrect context. Said another way, male/female intercourse is not inherently evil, just restricted to marriage.

On the other hand, masturbation, sodomy, or bestiality, are incorrect uses of the sexual faculties. There is no context in which they are not evil. Therefore, Aquinas judges them to be worse sins. I tend to agree.

Furthermore, fornication is unlike to distort one’s sexual viewpoint, while masturbation, particularly when coupled with pornography, can dement one’s reason as to sex, and lead to grave difficulties in having a correct sexual relationship within marriage.

You can find St. Thomas arguments here. Warning, he is quite dense, and requires careful reading. Remember, the “sin against nature” usually refers to masturbation, though sometimes include sodomy.

newadvent.org/summa/3154.htm

God Bless
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Excellant response. I never really thought of it that way and it does make perfect sense.

Paul
 
littletherese3 said:
Which do you think is the most immoral, murder or premarital sex?
In school today, about 3 people thought that it was premarital sex and 25 thought murder. What do you think?
Click to expand...
Murder is one of the 4 sins that cries to heaven for vengeance

The other 3 are
Sodomy
Cheating a worker of his wages
and Abuse of the poor.
 
bilop said:
No, not according to Aquinas, and traditional moral theology. You are falling prey to modern secular viewpoints.

Fornication, and even adultery observe the correct use of the sexual faculties, but in an incorrect context. Said another way, male/female intercourse is not inherently evil, just restricted to marriage.

On the other hand, masturbation, sodomy, or bestiality, are incorrect uses of the sexual faculties. There is no context in which they are not evil. Therefore, Aquinas judges them to be worse sins. I tend to agree.

Furthermore, fornication is unlike to distort one’s sexual viewpoint, while masturbation, particularly when coupled with pornography, can dement one’s reason as to sex, and lead to grave difficulties in having a correct sexual relationship within marriage.

You can find St. Thomas arguments here. Warning, he is quite dense, and requires careful reading. Remember, the “sin against nature” usually refers to masturbation, though sometimes include sodomy.

newadvent.org/summa/3154.htm

God Bless
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Yes but while a doctor of the church he is not infallible.

Fornication could also entail several other sins increasing the severity of the offense against god.

For example
Severe Immodesty (Mortal)
Leads to Seduction (Lust = Mortal)
If Virgin (Add another mortal sin)
False Promises (Add another mortal sin (Promises of marriage, eternal love etc)
Fornication (Another Mortal Sin)

Add in the Modern flavors of
Birth Control (Mortal Sin)

Thus each situation would be different. I don’t think it matters to much as one should never turn their back on God.
 
bilop said:
Fornication, and even adultery observe the correct use of the sexual faculties, but in an incorrect context. Said another way, male/female intercourse is not inherently evil, just restricted to marriage.

On the other hand, masturbation, sodomy, or bestiality, are incorrect uses of the sexual faculties. There is no context in which they are not evil. Therefore, Aquinas judges them to be worse sins. I tend to agree.
Click to expand...
So we measure the “evilness” of the acts by simply figuring out how incorrectly the sexual faculties are used during said act…without no regard to real consequences and/or motives? That is pretty ridiculous.

I will tell my wife that next time I feel like giving in to the temption of masterbation b/c I miss her so much, I will pass on the sin against nature and just go next door and get it on with my neighbor’s wife…b/c Aquinas thinks that is surely less offensive in the eyes of God. Somehow, I doubt she will agree.
–Rico
 
nmoerbeek said:
Yes but while a doctor of the church he is not infallible.

Fornication could also entail several other sins increasing the severity of the offense against god.

For example
Severe Immodesty (Mortal)
Leads to Seduction (Lust = Mortal)
If Virgin (Add another mortal sin)
False Promises (Add another mortal sin (Promises of marriage, eternal love etc)
Fornication (Another Mortal Sin)

Add in the Modern flavors of
Birth Control (Mortal Sin)

Thus each situation would be different. I don’t think it matters to much as one should never turn their back on God.
Click to expand...
and to look further on your list… thinking in “modern times” let’s add abortion to the list after birth control. After all according to today’s society, unwanted pregnancy is just a disease that can be cured with a “medical procedure”.

Paul
 
nmoerbeek said:
Yes but while a doctor of the church he is not infallible.

Fornication could also entail several other sins increasing the severity of the offense against god.

For example
Severe Immodesty (Mortal)
Leads to Seduction (Lust = Mortal)
If Virgin (Add another mortal sin)
False Promises (Add another mortal sin (Promises of marriage, eternal love etc)
Fornication (Another Mortal Sin)

Add in the Modern flavors of
Birth Control (Mortal Sin)

Thus each situation would be different. I don’t think it matters to much as one should never turn their back on God.
Click to expand...
To you last point, absolutely.

Also, and I could be wrong, I read that he wrote (Note: I myself didn’t read his writing) that masturbation is itself worse than rape, as rape, at very least, can have a good outcome, the conception of a child.

Whereas masturbation is a pointless, selfish affectation.

I could argue, however, that sexual immorality is, in a way, worse than murder, in that, murder is done outside of the body, whereas immorality is committed both inside and out. In that, not merely is one Temple of God destroyed, but two are desecrated.

Never mind the severety of ending another human beings life. Suicide, anyway, is cleary worse than both, being, as it is, the ultimate mutiny against this universe.

Still, I’m hard pressed to think that God would allow anyone to be murdered that, say, He needed for His purposes later on. Not that anyone of us are especially irreplacable…After all, if He wills something done, it’ll be done, whether or not the first guy assigned the task kicks the bucket.
 
Rico_S said:
So we measure the “evilness” of the acts by simply figuring out how incorrectly the sexual faculties are used during said act…without no regard to real consequences and/or motives? That is pretty ridiculous.

I will tell my wife that next time I feel like giving in to the temption of masterbation b/c I miss her so much, I will pass on the sin against nature and just go next door and get it on with my neighbor’s wife…b/c Aquinas thinks that is surely less offensive in the eyes of God. Somehow, I doubt she will agree.
–Rico
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My wife would prefer me to murder someone rather than commit adultery, that doesn’t affect the gravity of the sin.

God Bless
 
bilop said:
My wife would prefer me to murder someone rather than commit adultery, that doesn’t affect the gravity of the sin.

God Bless
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Wow, I am pretty sure my wife wouldn’t. I will ask her, but I am pretty sure it is quite clear to her that murder is >>>>>>>> adultery (or even worse, masterbation :eek: 😉 ).

Nevertheless, you did not address my point at all about how to measure the evil of said acts.

–Rico
 
Dtmccameron said:
To you last point, absolutely.

Also, and I could be wrong, I read that he wrote (Note: I myself didn’t read his writing) that masturbation is itself worse than rape, as rape, at very least, can have a good outcome, the conception of a child.

Whereas masturbation is a pointless, selfish affectation.

I could argue, however, that sexual immorality is, in a way, worse than murder, in that, murder is done outside of the body, whereas immorality is committed both inside and out. In that, not merely is one Temple of God destroyed, but two are desecrated.

Never mind the severety of ending another human beings life. Suicide, anyway, is cleary worse than both, being, as it is, the ultimate mutiny against this universe.

Still, I’m hard pressed to think that God would allow anyone to be murdered that, say, He needed for His purposes later on. Not that anyone of us are especially irreplacable…After all, if He wills something done, it’ll be done, whether or not the first guy assigned the task kicks the bucket.
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By your logic god would never let a person he needed to be a virgin to lose her virginity.

Your incorrect on suicide because the culpability of a person may be reduced by circumstance. For instance involuntary suicide or sever mental illness.

Your logic on sexual immorality is also off because you are destroying the temple of god in another person.

However I did thoroughly enjoy your thoughts.

Let us both agree to never murder or fornicate.
 
Rico_S said:
Wow, I am pretty sure my wife wouldn’t. I will ask her, but I am pretty sure it is quite clear to her that murder is >>>>>>>> adultery (or even worse, masterbation :eek: 😉 ).

Nevertheless, you did not address my point at all about how to measure the evil of said acts.

–Rico
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The real way to measure the evil of said acts in your life is to have a regular confessor who can help you when you struggle on your path to eternal life.

And never forget penance.
 
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