Murder or Premarital Sex?

[bilop]

Wow, I am pretty sure my wife wouldn’t. I will ask her, but I am pretty sure it is quite clear to her that murder is >>>>>>>> adultery (or even worse, masterbation ).

Nevertheless, you did not address my point at all about how to measure the evil of said acts.

–Rico

I agree murder is worse, but my wife would probably prefer it b/c it is not a betrayal of her, and she might agree that the person had it coming.

My point is, we can’t judge the severity of sin based solely on the temporal consequences, and our limited human understanding.
That is how our society has “normalized” masturbation; “nobody is hurt”, yeah right.

We can never really understand God’s viewpoint on these things. However, I’m willing to be St. Thomas was able to get closer than we can.

God Bless

 

[Dtmccameron]

By your logic god would never let a person he needed to be a virgin to lose her virginity.

*As I understood it, nuns who were raped were not said to have lost their virginity. I think it went along the lines of it being something you had to give away. I might be in some way comprimising the free will of the person, now that I think of it, and my views might have a hint of predestinationism. However, I think making a bad decision (say, to fornicate) is a ways different from being murdered. *

Your incorrect on suicide because the culpability of a person may be reduced by circumstance. For instance involuntary suicide or sever mental illness.

Involuntary suicide? Oh, I suppose like accidentally shooting one’s self in the head while cleaning one’s gun? I didn’t mean that at all. Accidents are accidents. Further, I didn’t mean people with mental illnesses either, but now that I think about it, a person would have to be sick in the head to do the deed. To commit any sin, really.

Your logic on sexual immorality is also off because you are destroying the temple of god in another person.

Hmmm…I might not have worded it correctly, but I think we agree when it comes down to the math.

However I did thoroughly enjoy your thoughts.

And it was a pleasure to be corrected by you, sir! You made it so very enjoyable, we must do it again sometime!
Let us both agree to never murder or fornicate.

The best advice given in this thread, so I remember, but alas! I can do both these things in my mind! What is worse, in my mind, there is some perverse sort of freedom, let’s call it anarchy, where I am free to murder through hate and fornicate through lust and none of the worldly authorities will ever come down upon 'till my thoughts turn to deeds!

It’s almost unfair there isn’t a Thought Police. I feel every bit as guilty as the common murderer and rapist, yet no-one will dole out upon me justice! I demand justice for my victimes! I demand their wrongs be avenged!

 

[tvdxer]

This question is illogical. Grave sin is grave sin. If done with knowledge and intent, either can send you to hell.

Ask the teacher who posed this question another question: “Is it worse to go to hell for murder or to go to hell for fornication?”

It isn’t illogical, because some grave sins are worse than other grave sins, and the punishments of hell are not equal for all sinners.

Murder, of course, is graver than fornication. However, this does not mean that fornication is NOT a very serious sin. In some cases it may even lead to murder (the use of abortion or perhaps certain contraceptives that might be abortifacient).

 

[Et_Cetera]

Murder.

 

[kage_ar]

It isn’t illogical, because some grave sins are worse than other grave sins, and the punishments of hell are not equal for all sinners.

Can you link me to this in the CCC or another official doctrinal source?

 

[nmoerbeek]

Can you link me to this in the CCC or another official doctrinal source?

I believe you will see St Theresa of Avila (Collected works of St Theresa), St John Bosco (Dreams?), and St Faustina(Divine Mercy of my soul) make references that their are different punishments in hell for different types of sin. However they are not dogmatic (to my current knowledge) although it would seem to me they are logical.

 

[kage_ar]

I believe you will see St Theresa of Avila (Collected works of St Theresa), St John Bosco (Dreams?), and St Faustina(Divine Mercy of my soul) make references that their are different punishments in hell for different types of sin. However they are not dogmatic (to my current knowledge) although it would seem to me they are logical.

These would all be opinions, not doctrine nor dogma.

 

[Rico_S]

My point is, we can’t judge the severity of sin based solely on the temporal consequences, and our limited human understanding.

I never said to judge sin based SOLELY on consequences…what I said is you cannot measure it with no regard for consequences and motives. No one would argue to measure sin solely based on consequences…that is as ridiculous as ignoring it altogether.

As far as our limited understanding…sure. His ways are not our ways…etc.etc… He may indeed feel that a single act of masturbation is worse than a single act of adultery. He may think that wearing boxers is an evil act and wearing briefs is holy. I simply do not know his ways…and neither does Aquinas.

All I can do is use the intellect God gave me to understand sin and evil…and I am pretty sure that God does not care whether I wear boxers or briefs, and I am confident that a single act of adultery is significantly more evil than a single act of masturbation.

Could I be wrong??? Sure. But I wear boxers nonetheless.

–Rico

 

[VociMike]

Which do you think is the most immoral, murder or premarital sex?
In school today, about 3 people thought that it was premarital sex and 25 thought murder. What do you think?

Remind them that premarital sex has led to countless murders in the past decades. I’m talking about abortion, of course. In the USA we have about 17,000 “normal” murders a year, and about 1.2 million “abortion” murders. Let’s just say, for sake of argument, that 1/2 of those abortion murders are the result of premarital (or extra-marital) sex. The number is probably far higher in reality. So that’s 600,000 murders directly related to extra-martial sex, as compared to 17,000 “normal” murders. Hmm, the answer isn’t quite so obvious now, is it?

 

[latinmasslover]

Can you link me to this in the CCC or another official doctrinal source?

Can you provide a passage from the CCC or another official doctrinal souce that states the punishments of hell are equal for all sinners?

 

[latinmasslover]

These would all be opinions, not doctrine nor dogma.

Actually, these would be *non contradicting *revelations from Heaven. A Church document stating otherwise please.

God is just, and it is not just to punish a girl who’s killed after having had sex with her boyfriend with the same severity as, say, Hitler. Or is that just?

 

[fix]

Can you link me to this in the CCC or another official doctrinal source?

How about his:

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

 

[Cristiano]

Actually, these would be *non contradicting *revelations from Heaven. A Church document stating otherwise please.

God is just, and it is not just to punish a girl who’s killed after having had sex with her boyfriend with the same severity as, say, Hitler. Or is that just?

The just punishment for offending God would be infinite torment for an infinite period of time, independently of the mortal sin (that it is why we call it mortal). However, God is not only just but also merciful and so He will not use infinite torment for everybody. The differences in the severity of the torment would be not because of justice but because of mercy.

But again this is only my opinion/understanding.

 

[kage_ar]

The just punishment for offending God would be infinite torment for an infinite period of time, independently of the mortal sin (that it is why we call it mortal). However, God is not only just but also merciful and so He will not use infinite torment for everybody. The differences in the severity of the torment would be not because of justice but because of mercy.

But again this is only my opinion/understanding.

I’m willing to learn, but, the idea that hell is not eternal or that there are various levels of hell is something that I’ve never read as doctrine. Maybe people think that Dante wrote doctrine

 

[kage_ar]

The just punishment for offending God would be infinite torment for an infinite period of time, independently of the mortal sin (that it is why we call it mortal). However, God is not only just but also merciful and so He will not use infinite torment for everybody. .

The footnotes will link you to the other documents, pretty sure hell is eternal.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#1035

[1035](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1035.htm’) The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

 

[latinmasslover]

The just punishment for offending God would be infinite torment for an infinite period of time, independently of the mortal sin (that it is why we call it mortal). However, God is not only just but also merciful and so He will not use infinite torment for everybody. The differences in the severity of the torment would be not because of justice but because of mercy.

But again this is only my opinion/understanding.

Just out of curiousity, how do you come up with that (Hell not being eternal)?

 

[Cristiano]

Just out of curiousity, how do you come up with that (Hell not being eternal)?

My wording might have been confusing. I am saying that instead of an infinite torment for an infinite time it is going to be a finite torment for an infinite time. I was discussing two infinities: torment, and time. Hell is forever.

 

[Cristiano]

I’m willing to learn, but, the idea that hell is not eternal or that there are various levels of hell is something that I’ve never read as doctrine. Maybe people think that Dante wrote doctrine

So are you saying that all the people in hell will suffer an infinite torment for an infinite period of time?

My own assumption on the different intensities of punishment in simply based on the doctrine of God being merciful even when just.

 

[kage_ar]

Actually, these would be *non contradicting *revelations from Heaven. A Church document stating otherwise please.

The CCC on private revelations:

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/67.htm

**67 **Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.
Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.

 

[kage_ar]

So are you saying that all the people in hell will suffer an infinite torment for an infinite period of time?

My own assumption on the different intensities of punishment in simply based on the doctrine of God being merciful even when just.

The Catholic Encyclopedia gives links to scrupture and official documents on the teachings of hell.

newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm