Murderers and Heaven

  • Thread starter Thread starter Alda
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A

Alda

Guest
Hi,

I apologise if this is an overdone topic. I did a search but didn’t find anything particularly specific.

My problem is this, how do I come to an acceptance that if a murderer confesses and repents before death they may end up in Heaven? I am really struggling with this.

To my mind, it’s so hard to accept that a person can go out and, in cold blood, rape and kill children (for example) and still go to Heaven. I want to believe in God’s justice, that such a person will be punished forever for the unspeakable pain they cause to others. Maybe my idea of God’s justice is not authentic?

And anyway, how can a person capable in the first place of such disgusting and heinous crimes be also capable of full and genuine repentance for those same crimes? Is not their conscience virtually nonexistent in the first place? I understand that I must not try to judge the hearts of other people, this is just hard for me.

I once asked a priest this and was told, ‘yes, but how many such people would be truly sorry for what they had done?’ Is this the key to understanding this problem? I can’t help thinking that most would be motivated by a fear of death and punishment to accept Jesus at the last minute? And yet, they can’t fool God, right?

Thanks in advance for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
 
Well, you just need to understand that any sin can be forgiven in confession.
 
Alda said:
Hi,

I apologise if this is an overdone topic. I did a search but didn’t find anything particularly specific.

My problem is this, how do I come to an acceptance that if a murderer confesses and repents before death they may end up in Heaven? I am really struggling with this.

To my mind, it’s so hard to accept that a person can go out and, in cold blood, rape and kill children (for example) and still go to Heaven. I want to believe in God’s justice, that such a person will be punished forever for the unspeakable pain they cause to others. Maybe my idea of God’s justice is not authentic?

And anyway, how can a person capable in the first place of such disgusting and heinous crimes be also capable of full and genuine repentance for those same crimes? Is not their conscience virtually nonexistent in the first place? I understand that I must not try to judge the hearts of other people, this is just hard for me.

I once asked a priest this and was told, ‘yes, but how many such people would be truly sorry for what they had done?’ Is this the key to understanding this problem? I can’t help thinking that most would be motivated by a fear of death and punishment to accept Jesus at the last minute? And yet, they can’t fool God, right?

Thanks in advance for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
Click to expand...
Well, the motive for and reality of a person’s repentance is really only ever known to God and themselves. But in charity we are always to assume that everyone is at least capable of sincere repentance and sincere sorrow at having offended God. Since all our sins, even the most minor, offend him who is all-good and all-perfect hugely, there’d be no hope for any of us otherwise.

Remember the heinous sins that Paul committed before his conversion by way of persecuting Christians mercilessly? Remember the decades of heresy and just about every other sin that St Augustine was guilty of? If you’d met either of them prior to conversion you may have been tempted to write them off too, but we can’t do that if we hope not to be written off ourselves every time we relapse into sin.
 
Your question reminds me of something I heard Father Groeschel say the other night. To paraphrase, " The Church has canonized 1000’s of people into Heaven but none to hell." This is because of points touched by other posters. Only God knows if penitence is real and will be the final arbiter.

I may be wrong, but I wonder if your question really is, “how can a murderer go to Heaven next to someone who has been a “good” person his entire life and get the same reward”?

If I am correct, then I would point you to Matthew 20:1-16.

Jeff
 
Alda said:
I once asked a priest this and was told, ‘yes, but how many such people would be truly sorry for what they had done?’
Click to expand...
A friend of mine is an alcoholic and a rapist. That’s right, he’s a rapist, and a friend. Whenever he drinks he gets very aggressive sexually, toward women. Because he’s an alcoholic, he has lots of trouble not drinking. He’s spent lots of hard time for it. For now at least, he’s sober.

I cannot conceive of a man being more sorry for his sins. Granted he’s not a murderer, I don’t think, but he is truly sorry. Whether God sends this man to heaven or hell I don’t know.
 
Okay, thank you everyone for your replies. And for the Divine Mercy link, thank you, I had been looking for that.

Yes, TarlsQtr, I have reflected alot on this today and I suppose that is how I feel. It is wrong in me, I know. I still can’t help but feel that’s not justice. I accept though that I do not and cannot know the mind of God and of course I cannot fully grasp his wisdom and love. That is something I will have to work on. At the end of the day, He is the judger of souls and I trust in that.

As a mother, certain crimes break my heart and I cannot and do not want to imagine the kind of pain people feel when someone takes their loved one so violently. That is a pain that will haunt them forever. I feel like I disrespect them by imagining that the perpetrator of the crime may one day be rewarded with Heaven.

But as I say, what do I know? 🤷 Thank you for helping me muddle through this.
 
A lot of murdered saints warned their murderers or persecutors that they’d pray for them in Heaven – either before or after their deaths! And many of those murderers ended up penitents, and many of the persecutors became Christians, some even being martyred themselves. Praying for an enemy’s soul is the best revenge!

So I’m sure that murdered people now in Heaven rejoice if their murderers become repentant and are saved.
 
Mintaka said:
A lot of murdered saints warned their murderers or persecutors that they’d pray for them in Heaven – either before or after their deaths! And many of those murderers ended up penitents, and many of the persecutors became Christians, some even being martyred themselves. Praying for an enemy’s soul is the best revenge!

So I’m sure that murdered people now in Heaven rejoice if their murderers become repentant and are saved.
Click to expand...
St Maria Goretti being one - she actually appeared to her murderer to tell him so, he repented and reformed and was present at her beatification - as was her mother.

Interesting situation.
 
God knows us so well, does He not? The parable in which the workers who only worked a short time get the same wages as the workers who worked all day directly addresses this.

Once we are in heaven, we will “understand” the justice. Think of a human parent whose adult child has committed heinous crimes. She is distraught, angry, saddened, etc. However, she would not be too quick to condemn her child for ETERNITY. I am a mom and would support the justice system if one of my children was that criminal. There is no punishment the justice system can give that is for ETERNITY. If my child got the death penalty, I would do all I could (pray, pray, pray) to help him/her repent and receive the sacraments prior to death.
God’s mercy far surpasses ours (thank God!). In heaven we will love more perfectly. We will love as we are asked to love on earth.
 
This reminds me of the fact that it would need to be a true and valid sorrow and repentance.

God knows the heart of the repentant sinner. If you are a parent do you accept every “sorry” that your child mumbles? I would think that you look at the motive and desire not to do something again to see if the apology is true or not. This is what I believe God does. After all God does not accept all that cry LORD LORD the intent of the cry is looked at lovingly and then the decision is made.
 
I think part of the problem is that we have a singular concept of justice which says all sins/crimes must be punished and so it is in our criminal justice systems, but God’s justice is not the same as our justice. Unfortunately I am not able to explain exactly how it is different, but I am convinced that it involves not only punishment but rendering to others like the widow, the orphan, and the stranger what they in their humanity need.
 
My
problem is this, how do I come to an acceptance that if a murderer confesses and repents before death they may end up in Heaven? I am really struggling with this.
Click to expand...
To my mind, it’s so hard to accept that a person can go out and, in cold blood, rape and kill children (for example) and still go to Heaven. I want to believe in God’s justice, that such a person will be punished forever for the unspeakable pain they cause to others. Maybe my idea of God’s justice is not authentic?
Click to expand...
I think it’s connected to our inability to fully comprehend the absolute wonder of every individual human soul. God thoughtfully created each one and loves every one of them/us individually. As a mother, you’ve experienced only an inkling (for your children) of such love. What joy a parent has when a child repents of evil. Again, that’s only an inkling of God’s joy.

If we haven’t reached the point of loving the sinner for his own sake, perhaps we can rejoice in the sinner’s salvation for God’s sake - out of love for God and being elated because we know how much joy it is giving Him.

From one mother to another,
Nita
 
Plus, I don’t think we can know what motivated the murderer and how culpable he may have been at the time. Many abusers have been abused, after all. The way kids are being raised today, with no moral compass, modeling, or training in self-control I wonder if they even have the capacity of knowing it’s even wrong, or at leasts knowing why they should care that it’s wrong.
 
Alda said:
My problem is this, how do I come to an acceptance that if a murderer confesses and repents before death they may end up in Heaven? I am really struggling with this.

To my mind, it’s so hard to accept that a person can go out and, in cold blood, rape and kill children (for example) and still go to Heaven. I want to believe in God’s justice, that such a person will be punished forever for the unspeakable pain they cause to others. Maybe my idea of God’s justice is not authentic?

And anyway, how can a person capable in the first place of such disgusting and heinous crimes be also capable of full and genuine repentance for those same crimes? Is not their conscience virtually nonexistent in the first place? I understand that I must not try to judge the hearts of other people, this is just hard for me.

I once asked a priest this and was told, ‘yes, but how many such people would be truly sorry for what they had done?’ Is this the key to understanding this problem? I can’t help thinking that most would be motivated by a fear of death and punishment to accept Jesus at the last minute? And yet, they can’t fool God, right?
Click to expand...
My approach is to not tackle this problem head-on, but instead to contemplate Heaven and Hell. We have here two places, complete opposites of each other, Heaven is pure bliss, and Hell is pure…hell?. After meditating on the sheer joy of Heaven and the permanency of the afterlife, how can we not wish everyone will get to Heaven? Even here on earth (and more specifically, Canada), we only lock up our murderers for 20 years, (plus parole). Why would we wish them an eternity of pain in Hell if we only punish them for a finite period here?
 
Mintaka said:
A lot of murdered saints warned their murderers or persecutors that they’d pray for them in Heaven – either before or after their deaths! And many of those murderers ended up penitents, and many of the persecutors became Christians, some even being martyred themselves. Praying for an enemy’s soul is the best revenge!

So I’m sure that murdered people now in Heaven rejoice if their murderers become repentant and are saved.
Click to expand...
It’s traditional for martyrs to forgive their persecutors shortly before death. Whether the average murderer who kills a non-martyr is so lucky is another matter.
 
Everyone seems to have forgotten Purgatory. A person may gain heaven, but that does not mean that God forgoes justice: it merely means that it will be tempered with mercy. Forgiveness and salvation from eternal damnation does mean going to heaven; but, it does not always equate to being free of consequences, both in this world and the next.

I also think we need to be careful about judging and pay attention to Jesus’s words in Mathew 5:22-26.
 
rciadan said:
Everyone seems to have forgotten Purgatory. A person may gain heaven, but that does not mean that God forgoes justice: it merely means that it will be tempered with mercy. Forgiveness and salvation from eternal damnation does mean going to heaven; but, it does not always equate to being free of consequences, both in this world and the next.
Click to expand...
Let’s not forget about plenetary indulgences which wipe away all temporal punishment.
 
Ceil-1 said:
Plus, I don’t think we can know what motivated the murderer and how culpable he may have been at the time. Many abusers have been abused, after all. The way kids are being raised today, with no moral compass, modeling, or training in self-control I wonder if they even have the capacity of knowing it’s even wrong, or at leasts knowing why they should care that it’s wrong.
Click to expand...

A Thomist would certainly think they have such a capacity, because Aquinas holds that nothing can quite obliterate our moral sense.​

This makes very good sense, because if a man seeks peace or happiness or something as a supreme good - however deformed it may be - activities which lead to peace or happiness are ways to attain that supreme good: even if the supreme good is, for that man, no more than a woman in bed & a bottle of Scotch to go with her.

People do things, ultimately, because they have ultimate goals - & all ultimate goals are perceived as desirable, & are desired; even if all intermediate goals, many of which are means to the ultimate goals, are not. A child may not want to have a bath, but if it wants to go to a party, the bath may be a necessary stage on the way to the party. The supreme good, whatever it may be thought to be, is an ultimate goal. So people don’t do what is evil in order to do evil - they do evil, because evil-doing is attractive, not as an evil, but as a good - the good being, that it is evil. Evil would be disappointing if it were not evil - IOW, if it were not good at being evil. And that means, that the evilness of evil is sought as a good.

So having no moral compass doesn’t mean one can’t or doesn’t seek what is good - it does make coming to the good more difficult.
 
Alda said:
My problem is this, how do I come to an acceptance that if a murderer confesses and repents before death they may end up in Heaven? I am really struggling with this.

To my mind, it’s so hard to accept that a person can go out and, in cold blood, rape and kill children (for example) and still go to Heaven. I want to believe in God’s justice, that such a person will be punished forever for the unspeakable pain they cause to others. Maybe my idea of God’s justice is not authentic?
Click to expand...
First, it should be remembered that no one get’s to Heaven on their own merits alone but on the merits of Jesus Christ’s death on the Cross.

Second, in the Gospels, Jesus speaks of storing up treasure in Heaven by performing good deeds while on earth. Likewise, in Revelation (19:8), St. John speaks of the saints in heaven being clothed in their good deeds. So, compared to the virtuous person who dies in God’s friendship after a life full of good deeds, the child rapist and murderer who repents of his sins just before his death, because of his lack of good deeds, will forever be the least and poorest in Heaven.

The child rapist and murderer who does not repent of his sins will suffer eternal punishment in Hell.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top