Murderers in Heaven?

[kalt]

[1033](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1033.htm’) We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.” – CCC

How does OSAS square with “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.”

 

[Tsuwano]

Murderers in heaven? That I can’t say. But I think I can say there are repentant sinners in heaven.

 

[kalt]

Murderers in heaven? That I can’t say. But I think I can say there are repentant sinners in heaven.

Obviously repentant sinners, even murderers who’ve repented may go to Heaven.

My question, though, is about those who aren’t repentant, who don’t confess the murder.

Do OSAS believers say that once they’ve “accepted” Jesus, they don’t have to confess their sins ever again? That they will be in Heaven regardless of what they do?

If so, how does that square with what the Bible says about murderders and Heaven?

 

[Jesus_123]

**

:bible1:
"If**
we confess our sins, he is faithful and just
to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us
from all unrighteousness.
John 1:9

God’s holy psalmist . . . King David . . . in the Old Testament . . . is an example of a murderer who repented in deep sorrow and grief over his sin . . . in profound fear of God . . . confessed his sin and was forgiven by God . . . and he is part of the line/lineage of . . . **Christ Jesus . . . God the Son . . . our Lord and our Saviour . . . **

*“O blood and Water, which gushed forth from the Heart of Jesus as a fount of mercy for us, I trust in You.” *- St. Faustina (Diary Entry #84)

*God bless . . . *

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . Sweet Holy Spirit of our God+
. . . guide and teach+​

 

[JMJ_coder]

Obviously repentant sinners, even murderers who’ve repented may go to Heaven.

My question, though, is about those who aren’t repentant, who don’t confess the murder.

Do OSAS believers say that once they’ve “accepted” Jesus, they don’t have to confess their sins ever again? That they will be in Heaven regardless of what they do?

If so, how does that square with what the Bible says about murderders and Heaven?

This is one place (of many) where the errors of Protestantism paint them into a logical corner.

I have heard from some proponents of OSAS that the murderer must never have really believed and accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. But, that explanation just digs them deeper because if the murderer could appear to have been truly saved but wasn’t, how do any of them know that they themselves really have believed and accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior (there favorite non-biblical phrase) and that they won’t do something to show that they really aren’t saved.

 

[JMJ_coder]

and he is part of the line/lineage of . . . **Christ Jesus . . . God the Son . . . our Lord and our Saviour . . . **Off-topic, but just being in Jesus’ ancestral lineage doesn’t mean you’re a saint – there are plenty of unsavory characters in Jesus’ genealogy.

I had a wonderful article on this very topic, but I can’t recall where I placed it.

 

[lwillo]

Obviously repentant sinners, even murderers who’ve repented may go to Heaven.

My question, though, is about those who aren’t repentant, who don’t confess the murder.

Do OSAS believers say that once they’ve “accepted” Jesus, they don’t have to confess their sins ever again? That they will be in Heaven regardless of what they do?

If so, how does that square with what the Bible says about murderders and Heaven?

I was an Evangelical protestant believer for 30 years before I became a Catholic. When you hear the phrase “accepting Jesus,” they are talking about entering into the coventant relationship with Christ. It is when a person comes to understand that Christ was the paschal sacrifice for our sins. If we respond to that in faith, by "accepting him as Lord and Savior of our life, we become “a christian,” and walk in that faith. In some denominations it happens differently, but for me the “profession of faith” (very much like what happened at my confirmation when the priest asked do you believe … and we answered I do) and the baptism immediately followed. No, protestants (at least none that I knew) believe that you just “accept Jesus” and then that’s it. You are walking with Christ in a relationship. When that relationship is violated by sin, there is repentance and confesion (to Christ himself) or the relationship is broken. When I was a protestant, there was a great misconception of the Catholic faith (I was pretty anti-catholic), but as a Catholic, I can say, there is a great deal of misconception on this side of the fence (or river) of what protestants believe. There is a great emphasis on sin, and personal accountability to it. There is no priesthood, but repentence and confession are the only way to restored relationship with Christ when you have sinned. Some of the most passionate believers I know are protestant, and they love God and serve Him with their whole hearts. Only a converted, repentant murderer would be in Heaven. Like Paul or David. Hope this sheds a little light on their thinking.

 

[kalt]

I was an Evangelical protestant believer for 30 years before I became a Catholic. When you hear the phrase “accepting Jesus,” they are talking about entering into the coventant relationship with Christ. It is when a person comes to understand that Christ was the paschal sacrifice for our sins. If we respond to that in faith, by "accepting him as Lord and Savior of our life, we become “a christian,” and walk in that faith. In some denominations it happens differently, but for me the “profession of faith” (very much like what happened at my confirmation when the priest asked do you believe … and we answered I do) and the baptism immediately followed. No, protestants (at least none that I knew) believe that you just “accept Jesus” and then that’s it. You are walking with Christ in a relationship. When that relationship is violated by sin, there is repentance and confesion (to Christ himself) or the relationship is broken. When I was a protestant, there was a great misconception of the Catholic faith (I was pretty anti-catholic), but as a Catholic, I can say, there is a great deal of misconception on this side of the fence (or river) of what protestants believe. There is a great emphasis on sin, and personal accountability to it. There is no priesthood, but repentence and confession are the only way to restored relationship with Christ when you have sinned. Some of the most passionate believers I know are protestant, and they love God and serve Him with their whole hearts. Only a converted, repentant murderer would be in Heaven. Like Paul or David. Hope this sheds a little light on their thinking.

But what of the OSAS idea then? If you can’t ever lose salvation, what of the people who commit murder and are unrepentant? They believed. They were “walking with Christ”–until the murder. So what happens in that situation? People sin and are reconciled if they are truly sorry and confess. What of OSAS. Everyone has free will and commits sins. How does OSAS square with the idea that murderers don’t go to heaven?

 

[Jesus_123]

:bible1:
So faith also,
if it have not works,
is dead in itself. …
Thou believest that there is one God.
Thou dost well:
the devils also believe and tremble.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that
faith without works is dead? …
For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also
faith without works is dead.
John 2:17, 19-20, 26

The doctrinal error of . . . “once-saved-always-saved” . . . which is propounded in some prostestant churches . . . and is also often called the . . . “doctrine of eternal security” . . . is just that . . . error . . . the Catholic Church does not hold this doctrine in any way as truth . . .

If you read the **Parable of the Sower **as taught . . . and expanded upon . . . by Jesus in Sacred Scripture . . . you quickly perceive that souls vary in their nature and receptiveness in receiving the Word of God . . . and not all the types of ground . . . souls . . . as taught in our Lord’s parable . . . receive the Word and allow it to take root . . . and to flourish . . .

:coffeeread:
Gospel According to Saint Mark (Douay Rheims Version - Bishop Challoner’s Comment)
Chapter 4:1-23

1 And again he began to teach by the sea side; and a great multitude was gathered together unto him, so that he went up into a ship, and sat in the sea; and all the multitude was upon the land by the sea side. 2 And he taught them many things in parables, and said unto them in his doctrine:

**3 Hear ye: Behold, the sower went out to sow. 4 And whilst he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the birds of the air came and ate it up. 5 And other some fell upon stony ground, where it had not much earth; and it shot up immediately, because it had no depth of earth. 6 And when the sun was risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. 8 And some fell upon good ground; and brought forth fruit that grew up, and increased and yielded, one thirty, another sixty, and another a hundred. 9 And he said: He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. **

10 And when he was alone, the twelve that were with him asked him the parable. 11 And he said to them: To you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but to them that are without, all things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand: lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

**13 And he saith to them: Are you ignorant of this parable? and how shall you know all parables? 14 He that soweth, soweth the word. 15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown, and as soon as they have heard, immediately Satan cometh and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. **

12 “That seeing they may see”… in punishment of their wilfully shutting their eyes, (St. Matt. 13. 15,) God justly withdrew those lights and graces, which otherwise he would have given them, for their effectual conversion.

**16 And these likewise are they that are sown on the stony ground: who when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with joy. 17 And they have no root in themselves, but are only for a time: and then when tribulation and persecution ariseth for the word they are presently scandalized. 18 And others there are who are sown among thorns: these are they that hear the word, 19 And the cares of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts after other things entering in choke the word, and it is made fruitless. 20 And these are they who are sown upon the good ground, who hear the word, and receive it, and yield fruit, the one thirty, another sixty, and another a hundred.

21 And he said to them: Doth a candle come in to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick? 22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be made manifest: neither was it made secret, but that it may come abroad. 23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. **

Kalt . . . your original post’s question simply is a pitting of . . . error against truth . . . if a soul is a holy soul . . . and walking with the Lord Jesus Christ . . . as best they can and know how . . . in due season . . . in God’s good time . . . full truth will be revealed to them . . . *if not here on earth . . . then in heaven above . . . *

It is a futile exercise to try to explain it further . . . You have quoted the Catechism . . . and it is crystal clear as to what the Catholic Church teaches . . .

God bless . . .

:coffeeread:
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.” – CCC

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . Holy Spirit of our God+
. . . guide and teach+​

 

[cthulhubryan]

But what of the OSAS idea then? If you can’t ever lose salvation, what of the people who commit murder and are unrepentant? They believed. They were “walking with Christ”–until the murder. So what happens in that situation? People sin and are reconciled if they are truly sorry and confess. What of OSAS. Everyone has free will and commits sins. How does OSAS square with the idea that murderers don’t go to heaven?

God is merciful. As Father Corapi once said “I knew the name of God and His name is Mercy” Therefore God guided His Church to recognize that there are times when the sacrament of reconciliation may not be possible and thus allowed for perfect contrition.

Of course, the better choice is to confess sooner in case there is no later.

 

[lwillo]

But what of the OSAS idea then? If you can’t ever lose salvation, what of the people who commit murder and are unrepentant? They believed. They were “walking with Christ”–until the murder. So what happens in that situation? People sin and are reconciled if they are truly sorry and confess. What of OSAS. Everyone has free will and commits sins. How does OSAS square with the idea that murderers don’t go to heaven?

I don’t think all protestant churchs believe “once saved always saved.” I also don’t know if you can lump that with the blanket of “eternal security.” I am not a theologian, but I was in a church that believed that you would “forfeit” your salvation by living in sin. Disobedience cut you off from God, but the idea of “eternal security” (at least as we understood it) was about God’s longsuffering grace, that does not just blot you out because you mess up. In otherwords, if a person is walking with Christ and his heart is striving toward obedience, and he sins (as we all do), God’s grace is what keeps you secured to him. As a Catholic I would describe this as venial sin, because what we would consider mortal sin, is sin that immediately breaks the relationship. This was true there too. We did not use the terms venial or mortal, but we understood that there is difference between the sins that we commit because we’re human (like getting angry or acting hateful etc) and those sins that you commit by choice (like having an affair, or cheating on your income tax etc) All sin was in need of repentance and confession (again to Christ) for restoration of your relationship. I can’t imagine that anyone who is walking with Christ and trusting salvation is going to murder someone and think it’s ok. I’m not saying that the protestant church isn’t in error regarding their theology about salvation, but we can’t lump them all into the same pot. When I was a protestant, we jumped on things that Catholic’s believed (albeit it was intrepted my we who knew nothing about what Catholics believed, and we came up with all sorts of twisted ideas) To my suprise, when I did find out what Catholics believed regarding things like authority, salvation, sin, and the sacrament of confession, it was not that big of a leap.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.” – CCC

How does OSAS square with “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.”

Because OSAS presupposes conversion - so that there are - very likely - ex-murderers in Heaven. The person is accepted, but not the sin. And is “accepted in”, & for the sake of, Christ - not on the strength of anything done “outside” Christ. IOW, a Mediator is needed - & that Mediator, Whom God has provided, is Christ.​

All that kerfuffle about what man does is so much hot air, unless God takes the initiative. God’s election of individuals is prior to man’s response, in the order of logic & in the order of execution of what is done. Which puts human free choice in the lowly place it deserves,rather than letting it condition God’s action.

 

[kalt]

God is merciful. As Father Corapi once said “I knew the name of God and His name is Mercy” Therefore God guided His Church to recognize that there are times when the sacrament of reconciliation may not be possible and thus allowed for perfect contrition.

Of course, the better choice is to confess sooner in case there is no later.

Do you believe, then, that no one dies unrepentant. That no one commits a sin that he isn’t sorry about, and so all murderers who are Christian, no matter how long they live after a murder and don’t confess, will got to Heaven?

The priest is talking about those times when a person is repentant but the sacrament of reconciliation isn’t possible or available - the cases in which a person who is sorry for his sins but is in a coma and can’t confess or when he is sorry for his sins and is in danger of dying, but there is no priest to hear his confession (plane crash).

What of those who die unrepentant? How does the OSAS theory deal with that situation?

 

[kalt]

Because OSAS presupposes conversion - so that there are - very likely - ex-murderers in Heaven. The person is accepted, but not the sin. And is “accepted in”, & for the sake of, Christ - not on the strength of anything done “outside” Christ. IOW, a Mediator is needed - & that Mediator, Whom God has provided, is Christ.​

All that kerfuffle about what man does is so much hot air, unless God takes the initiative. God’s election of individuals is prior to man’s response, in the order of logic & in the order of execution of what is done. Which puts human free choice in the lowly place it deserves,rather than letting it condition God’s action.

And what of the murderer. We know what murder is. We know what repentance is. The Bible says that murderers (unrepentant murderers) will not enter Heaven.

How does the OSAS explain, then, how an unrpentatn, OSAS murderer is said to be “saved”?

 

[kalt]

I don’t think all protestant churchs believe “once saved always saved.” I also don’t know if you can lump that with the blanket of “eternal security.” I am not a theologian, but I was in a church that believed that you would “forfeit” your salvation by living in sin. Disobedience cut you off from God, but the idea of “eternal security” (at least as we understood it) was about God’s longsuffering grace, that does not just blot you out because you mess up. In otherwords, if a person is walking with Christ and his heart is striving toward obedience, and he sins (as we all do), God’s grace is what keeps you secured to him. As a Catholic I would describe this as venial sin, because what we would consider mortal sin, is sin that immediately breaks the relationship. This was true there too. We did not use the terms venial or mortal, but we understood that there is difference between the sins that we commit because we’re human (like getting angry or acting hateful etc) and those sins that you commit by choice (like having an affair, or cheating on your income tax etc) All sin was in need of repentance and confession (again to Christ) for restoration of your relationship. I can’t imagine that anyone who is walking with Christ and trusting salvation is going to murder someone and think it’s ok. I’m not saying that the protestant church isn’t in error regarding their theology about salvation, but we can’t lump them all into the same pot. When I was a protestant, we jumped on things that Catholic’s believed (albeit it was intrepted my we who knew nothing about what Catholics believed, and we came up with all sorts of twisted ideas) To my suprise, when I did find out what Catholics believed regarding things like authority, salvation, sin, and the sacrament of confession, it was not that big of a leap.

People who are “walking with God” commit sins all the time. And sins that they aren’t truly sorry for–somtimes for a while, somtimes forever. We all know people who persist in their sins. Envy might be the most common.

How many people voted in the last election, hoping for the “redistribution of wealth”, hoping for a winfall from the rich who don’t “deserve” to keep all they’ve earned. How many people confessed that sin in November? At any time since then? Most people feel justified in that particular sin–Envy!

Who can believe, then, that some murderers who are “walking with God” wouldn’t feel justified in the murder they commit? There are many immediate causes. Envy. Hate. Anger. Lust. If one feels justified in taking what belongs to someone else through a redistribution of wealth, it’s clear that some people will feel justified in other sins as well.

If OSAS is a true state, who are any of we to decide who is and who isn’t OSAS. I would think that that is up to God. If someone believes that OSAS is an actual state, how do they explain it when a OSAS person becomes an unrepentant murderer?

 

[cthulhubryan]

Do you believe, then, that no one dies unrepentant. That no one commits a sin that he isn’t sorry about, and so all murderers who are Christian, no matter how long they live after a murder and don’t confess, will got to Heaven?

The priest is talking about those times when a person is repentant but the sacrament of reconciliation isn’t possible or available - the cases in which a person who is sorry for his sins but is in a coma and can’t confess or when he is sorry for his sins and is in danger of dying, but there is no priest to hear his confession (plane crash).

What of those who die unrepentant? How does the OSAS theory deal with that situation?

While I wish that were so, I do not believe it. I am not saying that all murderers go to heaven for that is God’s call. All I was saying is that there could be a circumstance under which someone who lived a life of crime and sin could be led to perfect contrition by the Grace of God.

I have never bought into the “saved = get out of Hell free card” so that you can get saved once and then never worry about it again and feel free to rape, pillage and murder all you want. That is silly.

My point, in the end, is that no man may know the mind of God and therefore no man can truthfully say that ALL murderers go to Hell for God is Mercy.