Mushy worship music...

  • Thread starter Thread starter CanMan86
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Protestant in the sense that it’s what is often played in many protestant churches, especially evangelical or charismatic. Not protestant in the lyrics but in style I guess you could say. This music “style” is not traditionally thought to be Catholic in my opinion. For example, I showed an Orthodox friend this video:

youtube.com/watch?v=UQud1LgLPw0

and asked him what he thought and his only response was “protestant.”
that is one person’s opinion. In the early years of the Charismatic movement, a majority of the music came from Word of God in Ann Arbor, It was Catholic and it was the Protestant groups that use it not the other way around. “I am the bread of life” is a very Catholic song.
I ought to know since I was there and the Protestant groups used the Catholic songs.
 
Protestant in the sense that it’s what is often played in many protestant churches, especially evangelical or charismatic. Not protestant in the lyrics but in style I guess you could say. This music “style” is not traditionally thought to be Catholic in my opinion. For example, I showed an Orthodox friend this video:

youtube.com/watch?v=UQud1LgLPw0

and asked him what he thought and his only response was “protestant.”
Except that catholics wrote that to be a theme song for the Steubenville youth conference.

nothing protestant about it.
 
Hey,

I find that the music commonly played in non-liturgical Catholic worship settings (and even sometimes liturgical settings) to be overly mushy, modern, protestant, emotional and even effeminate.

Stuff like this: youtube.com/watch?v=-3L5SJyPpZk

youtube.com/watch?v=UQud1LgLPw0
Thanks for the awesome links. Those are great!

Not Protestant though. None of the words had the slightest conflict with Catholic theology and the one with a location was Steubenville. Catholic brothers and sisters.
 
and asked him what he thought and his only response was “protestant.”
Your friend misused the word. We tend to be sloppy with language, like the way “liberal” is used. “Protestant”, “liberal” or “Nazi”, it is all rhetoric, empty of meaning when used as nothing better than inaccurate insult. On the other side of the spectrum “pharisee” is also used this way.

Consider this, how would you respond if someone called Gregorian chant the stuffy music of pharisees instead of mushy protestant music? Post unto others as you would have them post unto you.
 
well whos’ responsibility is it to make sure that worship music is appropriate for the celebration of mass ? Does it fall on the Pastor, or the Music Director ?

Or is it the Bishop who needs to travel from parish to parish or send out a memo stating what should an should not be played, what is an is not acceptable ?
The bishop can issue specific guidelines he wants followed. The priest is responsible to see this done in his parish. He may allow a layperson to choosed music, but the priest must bear responsibility for the choice.
 
And how are you going to really do this? There is a shortage of priests. There isn’t enough time for them to learn the rubrics and with the liturgical critics that are out there, if they make a mistake, people are going to be running to the Bishop. Likewise, you are assuming that with limited priests, there is a demand for this. Most Catholics I know are not interested in EF Mass. Sorry, but the interest and demand may not be their even though this is your fantasy. Likewise the “liturgical abuse” is frankly abused. To claim that most NO Masses have abuse in them is grossly over stated and a false generalization and even insulting to the priests out there.
Yes and “most” of these Catholics likely voted for obama and think gay marriage and abortion are choices protected by the government and that the Church has no place talking about them. Forgive me, but anything generalizing Catholics nowadays is likely not good. At least us western Catholics. We should be looking East. They never abandoned their traditions to become more protestant, and they do not have the same troubles we do (within the Church). They are certainly not without trouble at all though. They are Catholic and as such, have a mark on their backs making them targets for the world.
 
Yes and “most” of these Catholics likely voted for obama and think gay marriage and abortion are choices protected by the government and that the Church has no place talking about them. Forgive me, but anything generalizing Catholics nowadays is likely not good. At least us western Catholics. We should be looking East. They never abandoned their traditions to become more protestant, and they do not have the same troubles we do (within the Church). They are certainly not without trouble at all though. They are Catholic and as such, have a mark on their backs making them targets for the world.
what one likes in music has nothing to do with who one voted for in the past election. I’ve never voted for a pro-abortion canidate and always been faithful in following the Churches teaching on birth control etc. Faithfulness to Churches teaching on a number of hot bed issues has nothing to do with a preference whether one attends an NO or EF Mass. The constant blanket accusal of “protestant” music in a Catholic Church is rather bogus. I was raised a Methodist and the music that was sung was writen by Charles Wesley etc which is much more in line with what is being considered traditional hymns. Likewise many of the Charismatic songs actually come from the early Charismatic Catholics than various Protestant charismatic groups. Likewise, the people who constant bring this up seem to have never stepped in any Protestant service which ranges from high liturgy style services in the Anglican, Lutheran, some Methodist to Baptist then Penticostal/Charismatic. Likewise if one is so worried about “protestant” music contaminating the Mass, they better pull an number of the Christmas carols sung because most of them are written by Protestants in the 19th century. If anything, the mushy music you are worried about is mostly written by Catholics not Protestants. Likewise, I’ve seen some more conservative Protestant groups complaining and longing for the hymns that I grew up with a a child.
If one is so worried about Protestant music in church, they need to stop singing “Amazing Grace” because that is a Protestant song along with a majority of Christmas carols etc.
 
Your friend misused the word. We tend to be sloppy with language, like the way “liberal” is used. “Protestant”, “liberal” or “Nazi”, it is all rhetoric, empty of meaning when used as nothing better than inaccurate insult. On the other side of the spectrum “pharisee” is also used this way.

Consider this, how would you respond if someone called Gregorian chant the stuffy music of pharisees instead of mushy protestant music? Post unto others as you would have them post unto you.
Well chant was the style of worship for over a thousand years and then some for the Catholic Church. It is every part as Catholic as the rest of the function. We all agree the only real purpose of Mass is to commune with God and receive Him body and blood in the Eucharist. Many people feel a stronger connection to God through the old ways. The more reverent ways. I myself being one of them. Sadly the only Parish that offers it is about twenty minutes away (which isn’t awful) but there are a lot of issues going on at that Parish at the moment that is emptying their Church and filling the three in our town. But that’s besides the point. It would be nice if every Parish offered the old ways for every Catholic who wants the reverence back in Mass that they can relate too. That they can engage in and grow spiritually from. You should see the participation (or lack thereof) at most Novus Ordo masses I’ve attended. Anytime we sing, it’s a bunch of zombies standing there. Some sing (usually the older people, God Bless them). Ultimately it boils down to personal preference. The Mass is the same Mass whether it’s Tridentine or Novus Ordo. The Tridentine just has more “bells and whistles” that, while they might not be necessary, do much to bolster the faith of any who yearn for tradition (small t). I want to attend a Latin Mass. It’s sad that I can’t find one at my Parish. Many people who want such a Mass have to go far and wide (most of which whom don’t and their faith suffers because of it). I wish I had been born in Europe. While the Church may be struggling there just as much as it does anywhere, they provide the reverence that is lost in much of america.
 
God willing His Holiness will push for every Parish to offer at least one latin mass. There are people in every Parish who would prefer the traditional mass. Unfortunately most of us have to attend the novus ordo.
Please remember that “latin” is not the opposite of “novus ordo”. One can have a latin NO/OF Mass, and it can be arguably the best of both worlds.
 
Yes and “most” of these Catholics likely voted for obama and think gay marriage and abortion are choices protected by the government and that the Church has no place talking about them. Forgive me, but anything generalizing Catholics nowadays is likely not good. At least us western Catholics. We should be looking East. They never abandoned their traditions to become more protestant, and they do not have the same troubles we do (within the Church). They are certainly not without trouble at all though. They are Catholic and as such, have a mark on their backs making them targets for the world.
Excuse me, can you please clarify whether you were being sarcastic in your first sentence or if you actually meant that?

Because if you meant that, I’m upside down offended. I like the OF mass-- lifeteen even, and I am completely orthdoox in following church’s teachings on everything- including TOB, chastity, and voting.
 
Protestant in the sense that it’s what is often played in many protestant churches, especially evangelical or charismatic. Not protestant in the lyrics but in style I guess you could say. This music “style” is not traditionally thought to be Catholic in my opinion. For example, I showed an Orthodox friend this video:

youtube.com/watch?v=UQud1LgLPw0

and asked him what he thought and his only response was “protestant.”
I find that video places the problem very well. Calling this kind of music, and by extension this kind of liturgy, protestant or sentimental doesn’t quite describe it. One needs to dig deeper.

Last night I attended the Mass of the Last Supper at a local parish church. It is the fourth church we have tried (we do not attend our own parish church for reasons I will not elaborate on here as it would get this post deleted). As OF Masses go it was regular stuff. Nothing over the top. No Beatles’ Let It Be as in another parish I attended. Nonetheless it was a burden, something to be endured and finally escaped from with relief. However, it clarified things for me so I suppose I can be grateful for that.

The bottom line is that there are two radically different ways of trying to approach God in a religious gathering.

The first is a kind of sensory flooding that impacts on the feelings. The music, the words, the gestures, everything, converges towards creating an emotional high. Movies do exactly the same thing. I once attended a course for new catechumens in which the priest’s first words were ‘When you come here you will have an experience’. That puts it in a nutshell. The video is a perfect example of this kind of approach. The people who take part in it are sincere enough. It creates a sense of bonding. People taking part together in a strong communal sensation feel a solidarity. It’s natural to hold hands. At the end one comes out of the church with good feelings.

The trouble with this approach is that it is bogus. You don’t have to have a strong or informed Faith to enjoy this kind of thing. It is quite possible to go to such a Mass Sunday after Sunday, knowing next to nothing about the Catholic Faith and feeling no need to know anything about it. With lack of knowledge goes lack of authentic Catholic outlook and, finally, lack of conformity to Catholic teaching on contentious issues. That’s not me being judgemental or uncharitable, that’s just the way things are.

The second approach is completely different. It’s supernatural. It starts with the mind, and with it that part of the soul I call the heart - not feelings, but heart - that is aware of the supernatural reality of God’s presence in the church. It’s a connecting with the supernatural world which is so much more real than our own world but which can be obscured by the agitation and noise of the world. One leaves the world behind, one even leaves one’s neighbour behind, to fill one’s mind with the great realities happening on the altar: Christ’s real presence, his death on the cross re-enacted, the presence of the angels and saints at this great deed, our own part in it, all of that. It is only when we love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, strength and mind that we are able to love our neighbour as ourselves. A truly supernatural Mass gets that order of priorities right.

This approach absolutely demands a deep and informed Faith. A Catholic without such a Faith will simply be bored. Hence a genuinely supernatural Mass will be ineffectual if it is not backed by a solid catechesis.

Specifically such a Mass needs music that appeals to the soul rather than the emotions. It needs architecture, art and gestures that focus on the supernatural reality of God’s presence and - heck - it needs silence. Last night I sat next to the loudspeaker and wished that Father would just turn his microphone off. Liturgy of the Noise. That’s what it was.

A lot of Masses can be a mix of the two approaches. At the end of yesterday’s liturgy we sang the Tantum Ergo whilst the priest took the Blessed Sacrament out the church. The problem though is that oil and water don’t mix. They just weaken each other’s innate qualities, creating an insipid mess. It eventually becomes necessary to choose one or the other.
 
Yes and “most” of these Catholics likely voted for obama and think gay marriage and abortion are choices protected by the government and that the Church has no place talking about them.
I have absolutely no idea what bringing politics into liturgy is going to accomplish. There is a plethora of political threads if you want to jump to that.
 
Many people feel a stronger connection to God through the old ways. The more reverent ways.
I do not know that one can compare reverence with age. If so, then we should all go back to the First Century for guidelines of the Mass, psalms, hymns, only a few speaking in tongues, etc.
 
The first is a kind of sensory flooding that impacts on the feelings. The music, the words, the gestures, everything, converges towards creating an emotional high.
You are right about this of course, though I have noted over the years it seems here a CAF, the need for an emotional lift comes more from those who are wanting chant more than something like LifeTeen. Outside this place and in the parishes, the reverse seems to be true.

On the other hand, there is something to be said for providing a liturgy that is conducive to worship. As the OP is pointing out, it would be good to meet the needs of those that are emotionally uplifted by the traditional music of the Church without them having to drive for an hour.
 
I find that video places the problem very well. Calling this kind of music, and by extension this kind of liturgy, protestant or sentimental doesn’t quite describe it. One needs to dig deeper.

Last night I attended the Mass of the Last Supper at a local parish church. It is the fourth church we have tried (we do not attend our own parish church for reasons I will not elaborate on here as it would get this post deleted). As OF Masses go it was regular stuff. Nothing over the top. No Beatles’ Let It Be as in another parish I attended. Nonetheless it was a burden, something to be endured and finally escaped from with relief. However, it clarified things for me so I suppose I can be grateful for that.

The bottom line is that there are two radically different ways of trying to approach God in a religious gathering.

The first is a kind of sensory flooding that impacts on the feelings. The music, the words, the gestures, everything, converges towards creating an emotional high. Movies do exactly the same thing. I once attended a course for new catechumens in which the priest’s first words were ‘When you come here you will have an experience’. That puts it in a nutshell. The video is a perfect example of this kind of approach. The people who take part in it are sincere enough. It creates a sense of bonding. People taking part together in a strong communal sensation feel a solidarity. It’s natural to hold hands. At the end one comes out of the church with good feelings.

The trouble with this approach is that it is bogus. You don’t have to have a strong or informed Faith to enjoy this kind of thing. It is quite possible to go to such a Mass Sunday after Sunday, knowing next to nothing about the Catholic Faith and feeling no need to know anything about it. With lack of knowledge goes lack of authentic Catholic outlook and, finally, lack of conformity to Catholic teaching on contentious issues. That’s not me being judgemental or uncharitable, that’s just the way things are.

The second approach is completely different. It’s supernatural. It starts with the mind, and with it that part of the soul I call the heart - not feelings, but heart - that is aware of the supernatural reality of God’s presence in the church. It’s a connecting with the supernatural world which is so much more real than our own world but which can be obscured by the agitation and noise of the world. One leaves the world behind, one even leaves one’s neighbour behind, to fill one’s mind with the great realities happening on the altar: Christ’s real presence, his death on the cross re-enacted, the presence of the angels and saints at this great deed, our own part in it, all of that. It is only when we love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, strength and mind that we are able to love our neighbour as ourselves. A truly supernatural Mass gets that order of priorities right.

This approach absolutely demands a deep and informed Faith. A Catholic without such a Faith will simply be bored. Hence a genuinely supernatural Mass will be ineffectual if it is not backed by a solid catechesis.

Specifically such a Mass needs music that appeals to the soul rather than the emotions. It needs architecture, art and gestures that focus on the supernatural reality of God’s presence and - heck - it needs silence. Last night I sat next to the loudspeaker and wished that Father would just turn his microphone off. Liturgy of the Noise. That’s what it was.

A lot of Masses can be a mix of the two approaches. At the end of yesterday’s liturgy we sang the Tantum Ergo whilst the priest took the Blessed Sacrament out the church. The problem though is that oil and water don’t mix. They just weaken each other’s innate qualities, creating an insipid mess. It eventually becomes necessary to choose one or the other.
this is totally an opinion. Bashing NO Masses which is what this post is doing is not permitted by CAF rules. If you sat ned to the loudspeaker, that was your poor choice.
 
Just so nobody gets the wrong idea, my last post does not bash the OF as such. Today I went to the Good Friday Afternoon Liturgy at Mariannhill Monastery. Liturgically, the monks there have ‘got it’. Reverence throughout, periods of silence, hymns that were truly supernatural - and I don’t mean the old Victorian hymns either. They were Zulu. You’ve got to listen to Zulu hymns, with their peculiar brand of counterpoint and harmonisation. Soulful and dignified, with depth, and absolutely at home in a church.

I might think that the Ecce lignum crucis works better in Latin than English, but I’m not going to quibble.

There are OFs and OFs.
 
At least I can say I was involved in music ministry. Every time I tried to suggest even a small change, I got tuned out, shushed or ignored. Believe me, however, the poor guy probably wouldn’t be able to change anything if he wanted to. he may get tossed out in the dark like I did.
That has been my experience, also. Perhaps I should dig out my clarinet and try once again to “contribute.” No, I shall continue to pray for this matter.
 
most of these threads about complaints about music are done by people that are not involved at all. Sorry but I love all kinds of music including what you and OP and a bunch of others thumb their noses down at. It’s what is sung at most Catholic Masses. I would accept both and not get so caught up in tastes and opinions.
Can you explain what it is that you like about the type of music we are discussing it? I promise to listen to what you have to say, so that I may understand you and others who like it.
 
God willing His Holiness will push for every Parish to offer at least one latin mass. There are people in every Parish who would prefer the traditional mass. Unfortunately most of us have to attend the novus ordo. It is 100% valid and a holy mass that can be done just as reverently (though it is often abused). Many of us crave the traditions of the latin mass. We crave the reverence and the closeness to God that we feel that many of us don’t get in the more modern novus ordo style mass. I think it’d be great for the Church the world over to enforce at least one Latin Mass every weekend. It’d bring a lot of the more traditional Catholics a big boost in zeal to be able to experience Mass as it used to be and is supposed to be and often falls short in our modern style 😦
Or, instead of pushing and prodding, he can just require it via a papal bull…heh heh. I know that won’t happen. 🙂
 
that is one person’s opinion. In the early years of the Charismatic movement, a majority of the music came from Word of God in Ann Arbor, It was Catholic and it was the Protestant groups that use it not the other way around. “I am the bread of life” is a very Catholic song.
I ought to know since I was there and the Protestant groups used the Catholic songs.
Amen!

Thank you for clarifying this and for giving witness to history that you were actually there to see happen.

I was Evangelical Protestant for 47 years, and was involved with the music programs of some of the most well-known Evangelical churches in the U.S. We never, ever, EVER sang any of the hymns that are done in Catholic Churches. They would have been called “too Catholic.”

What we did sing were the traditional hymns that Catholics love; e.g., Holy God We Praise Thy Name, and There’s A Wideness in God’s Mercy", “Praise Ye The Lord The Almighty.”

So should those songs be eliminated by Catholic parishes because Protestants use them in their worship services?

Frankly, I don’t see why everyone worries about what the Protestants do. Catholics need to take music BACK that rightfully belongs to God and the Church. Just because a Protestant touches something doesn’t mean that it is “unclean.”

Same for so-called “secular” instruments. Take them back! The more the instruments are played in church, the less they will be considered “secular.”

When I was attending an Evangelical Protestant church, I honestly had no idea what “secular” music was because I listened to so little of it because I was too busy serving God in my church and playing “religious” music. I didn’t go into bars, or places where “secular music” was played, so for me, there was no “secular association” with rock music. It was just “God’s music.”

Perhaps some of you might want to try not listening to secular music and then you’ll stop comparing it to church music and finding simliarities. If you never or seldom hear secular music, you won’t know whether your Mass music sounds secular or not! 🙂

On CAF, I have often said that I associate chant with movies, because that’s the only place I’ve ever heard it. A few weeks ago, I watched my favorite actor in a little-known movie (it was a bomb), and the score of the movie was almost exclusively GREGORIAN CHANT. It was a “ghost” movie, about a cop that came back as a “ghost” to help a rookie cop. The rookie cop had quit the priesthood to become a cop, and that’s why Gregorian chant was used as the score. Anyway, I’ve heard chant in movies often, and that’s MY association with it. When I hear it, I don’t think “Catholic” or “church” or “God.” I think “movie” because that’s what I know. Those of you who listen to the radio a lot, or go to secular concerts, or spend any time at bars or lounges, will no doubt think “bar” or “concert” when you hear certain styles of music because that’s what you know.

But what we know doesn’t matter. The Church should take the music BACK and redeem it and sanctify it rather than rejecting it as “secular.” To me, this “taking back of the music” is symbolic of what happens to human beings–we are sinful and sorrowful, but when we become part of Christ’s Church, we are redeemed and have a hope of heaven!

I would really like to see the Catholic Church hold a conference on Mass music that includes ALL the musicians, not just one style of musicians who conveniently ignore all the other styles that they don’t “crave.” I guess that this issue isn’t considered very important at this time by the Church leaders, and I accept that. But I would still like to see it happen in my lifetime. It is an issue that seems to divide, and that alone, IMO, is reason enough for the Church to step up and get active. But it’s not up to me, or any of us.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top