Music and Morality question:

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Ben_Sinner

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I ran across an online article trying to find out about Rock music and Catholicism

I found this article from a Catholic professor that has made me feel scrupulous:eek:.

catholiceducation.org/en/culture/art/music-and-morality.html

Here is what he said:

*"What kind of musical environment can help to create a good moral environment? Here are some broad suggestions…
  1. Music that can be shared. Rock drives a wedge between generations. Parents and children cant share songs like Princes Darling Nikki (about a girl masturbating with a magazine) or Van Halens Hot for Teacher.
  2. Music that channels emotions. The basic appeal of music is an emotional one.
  3. Music that shapes the soul. Morality is not simply about learning the rules of right and wrong, it is about a total alignment of our selves.
  4. Music that has stood the test of time.
5.** Music that tells a story**…morality does not thrive in a climate of nihilism…MTV, accordingly, does away with narrative and replaces it with what filmmakers call montage: a rapid sequence of loosely connected images…Non-narrative is not exactly the same thing as nihilistic, but its the next thing. *

Its # 4 and #5 that have me scratching my head…#5 especially.

Is this saying that it is a sin for someone to listen/make music that doesn’t have a narrative, make/watch a montage video, etc etc.???

Is this saying that one should not listen to music unless it has a narrative and stands the test of time? It is best we only listen to linear narratives?
 
First off, this is an article by Professor of Education. It doesn’t appear that moral theology is his particular area of expertise. But even if he were a moral theologian, one moral theologian’s opinion on matters of music is not equivalent to some binding magisterial teaching.

Note, this is one chapter out of a book “Why Johnny Can’t Tell Right From Wrong (And What We Can Do About It)”. Now, I haven’t read that book (nor heard of it before), but it seems to me that the fundamental purpose of the chapter in terms of the whole would be to think about how music can serve towards the end of teaching “Johnny” right from wrong.

He’s coming at it from an educational standpoint, not a moral theology standpoint. What he is giving are suggestions towards that educational end. It doesn’t seem to me that he intends them to be rigid structures outside the bounds of which someone would be guilty of sin. He’s more or less giving some concrete suggestions as to how best to use music to impart good morals to children (in his opinion, remember).

Indeed, look at the question/statement that immediately precedes his list:

“What kind of musical environment can help to create a good moral environment? Here are some broad suggestions.”

He does not say, “What kind of music leads one to sin and decisive separation from God? Here are the unchanging, all-encompassing, and always applicable rules outside the bounds of which no music can be listened to without falling into sin.” Notice the difference there?

In regards to some of his specific suggestions, I can kind of agree with the general suggestions (i.e. the first line of each bullet point) but I don’t agree with the way he fleshes them all out. For example, “music that can be shared” seems like a good enough suggestion. However, his assertion that “Rock drives a wedge between generations” is patently false. I’m a parent and I listen to rock music. It wouldn’t drive a wedge between me and my children. Though I would agree with him that songs about girls masturbating would be something neither of us should listen to, it is unfortunate to me that he takes such extreme examples to write off an entire genre of music. That undermines what are otherwise helpful ideas.

You might want to read Jimmy Akin’s article on Bad Music.
 
Joe_5859 said:
First off, this is an article by Professor of Education. It doesn’t appear that moral theology is his particular area of expertise. But even if he were a moral theologian, one moral theologian’s opinion on matters of music is not equivalent to some binding magisterial teaching.

Note, this is one chapter out of a book “Why Johnny Can’t Tell Right From Wrong (And What We Can Do About It)”. Now, I haven’t read that book (nor heard of it before), but it seems to me that the fundamental purpose of the chapter in terms of the whole would be to think about how music can serve towards the end of teaching “Johnny” right from wrong.

He’s coming at it from an educational standpoint, not a moral theology standpoint. What he is giving are suggestions towards that educational end. It doesn’t seem to me that he intends them to be rigid structures outside the bounds of which someone would be guilty of sin. He’s more or less giving some concrete suggestions as to how best to use music to impart good morals to children (in his opinion, remember).

Indeed, look at the question/statement that immediately precedes his list:

“What kind of musical environment can help to create a good moral environment? Here are some broad suggestions.”

He does not say, “What kind of music leads one to sin and decisive separation from God? Here are the unchanging, all-encompassing, and always applicable rules outside the bounds of which no music can be listened to without falling into sin.” Notice the difference there?

In regards to some of his specific suggestions, I can kind of agree with the general suggestions (i.e. the first line of each bullet point) but I don’t agree with the way he fleshes them all out. For example, “music that can be shared” seems like a good enough suggestion. However, his assertion that “Rock drives a wedge between generations” is patently false. I’m a parent and I listen to rock music. It wouldn’t drive a wedge between me and my children. Though I would agree with him that songs about girls masturbating would be something neither of us should listen to, it is unfortunate to me that he takes such extreme examples to write off an entire genre of music. That undermines what are otherwise helpful ideas.

You might want to read Jimmy Akin’s article on Bad Music.
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Amen to everything you said Joe!
 
Ben_Sinner said:
Its # 4 and #5 that have me scratching my head…#5 especially.

Is this saying that it is a sin for someone to listen/make music that doesn’t have a narrative, make/watch a montage video, etc etc.???

Is this saying that one should not listen to music unless it has a narrative and stands the test of time? It is best we only listen to linear narratives?
Click to expand...
Just to reiterate in the context of your specific questions, the author is giving suggestions for creating an environment in which parents can more easily impart a sense of morality to their children. He is not saying that music that is not a narrative and has not stood the test of time is sinful. Rather, he is saying that music that is narrative and has stood the test of time is most helpful for teaching good morals.
 
As a former rock musician who played every kind imaginable, I’d say if I had to do it all over again, I probably wouldn’t bother with the stuff. Thankfully, I was also educated in classical music. I don’t know how people who have only had a diet of pop/rock music get on. Here’s Benedict XVI on music (when he was Cardinal):
On the one hand, there is pop music, which is certainly no longer supported by the people in the ancient sense (populus). It is aimed at the phenomenon of the masses, is industrially produced, and ultimately has to be described as a cult of the banal. “Rock”, on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship. People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe. The music of the Holy Spirit’s sober inebriation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments.”
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I play guitar and sing to entertain at parties, dances and assisted living facilities etc.

I play a variety of music from standards( Sinatra, Glenn Miller) country ( Willie Nelson, Glenn Campbell) R&R ( Dion, Neil Diamond, Eagles) and tiki bar music.

I will not play songs that contain filthy attitudes or filthy language. That leaves out many hard rock artists like Eminem, Black Sabbath etc.

Since I play melody on guitar…the songs I pick must be melodious and not just harsh noise! :whistle: :harp: Wish there were more relevant smilies 😉
 
truetofaith said:
I play guitar and sing to entertain at parties, dances and assisted living facilities etc.

I play a variety of music from standards( Sinatra, Glenn Miller) country ( Willie Nelson, Glenn Campbell) R&R ( Dion, Neil Diamond, Eagles) and tiki bar music.

I will not play songs that contain filthy attitudes or filthy language. That leaves out many hard rock artists like Eminem, Black Sabbath etc.

Since I play melody on guitar…the songs I pick must be melodious and not just harsh noise! :whistle: :harp: Wish there were more relevant smilies 😉
Click to expand...
I’ve never heard Eminem described as “hard rock” before. 😛 Isn’t he a rapper?
 
Ben_Sinner said:
I ran across an online article trying to find out about Rock music and Catholicism

I found this article from a Catholic professor that has made me feel scrupulous:eek:.

catholiceducation.org/en/culture/art/music-and-morality.html

Here is what he said:

*"What kind of musical environment can help to create a good moral environment? Here are some broad suggestions…
  1. Music that can be shared.* Rock drives a wedge between generations. Parents and children cant share songs like Princes Darling Nikki (about a girl masturbating with a magazine) or Van Halens Hot for Teacher.
  2. Music that channels emotions. The basic appeal of music is an emotional one.
  3. Music that shapes the soul. Morality is not simply about learning the rules of right and wrong, it is about a total alignment of our selves.
  4. Music that has stood the test of time.
5.** Music that tells a story**…morality does not thrive in a climate of nihilism…MTV, accordingly, does away with narrative and replaces it with what filmmakers call montage: a rapid sequence of loosely connected images…Non-narrative is not exactly the same thing as nihilistic, but its the next thing.

Its # 4 and #5 that have me scratching my head…#5 especially.

Is this saying that it is a sin for someone to listen/make music that doesn’t have a narrative, make/watch a montage video, etc etc.???

Is this saying that one should not listen to music unless it has a narrative and stands the test of time? It is best we only listen to linear narratives?
Click to expand...
Having listened to rock ‘n roll from the beginning, most of it could be taken to heart because it was fun or made you feel good or think of pleasant things or love and romance. Real love. And sincerity. One woman visiting Graceland was asked why she was so enamored with Elvis’ songs. She replied, “When I was a teenager, I felt like he was singing only to me.” “Love Me Tender.” What a beautiful, heartfelt song. I could tell this was not a song about making a buck singing songs. I could take it into my heart and it was uplifting and positive. The words expressed a strong and soft, gentle state of mind and a desire that I believed in. That gradually disappeared, beginning in the late 1960s.

Ed
 
edwest2 said:
Having listened to rock ‘n roll from the beginning, most of it could be taken to heart because it was fun or made you feel good or think of pleasant things or love and romance. Real love. And sincerity. One woman visiting Graceland was asked why she was so enamored with Elvis’ songs. She replied, “When I was a teenager, I felt like he was singing only to me.” “Love Me Tender.” What a beautiful, heartfelt song. I could tell this was not a song about making a buck singing songs. I could take it into my heart and it was uplifting and positive. The words expressed a strong and soft, gentle state of mind and a desire that I believed in. That gradually disappeared, beginning in the late 1960s.

Ed
Click to expand...
It was always said about Frank Sinatra, that when you listened to his records, it felt like he was singing directly to you.
Groups like the Temptations, Four Seasons & Drifters sang songs about love and dating situations that everyone experienced. The songs had a good beat, catchy melodies and poetic lyrics.
The theme of the songs were about romantic love.
Today, most of the rap, hip- hop and alternative music have x-rated themes & lyrics.
Definitely not what a practicing Catholic, born-again Christian or a plain ordinary music lover wants to hear.
 
truetofaith said:
It was always said about Frank Sinatra, that when you listened to his records, it felt like he was singing directly to you.
Groups like the Temptations, Four Seasons & Drifters sang songs about love and dating situations that everyone experienced. The songs had a good beat, catchy melodies and poetic lyrics.
The theme of the songs were about romantic love.
Today, most of the rap, hip- hop and alternative music have x-rated themes & lyrics.
Definitely not what a practicing Catholic, born-again Christian or a plain ordinary music lover wants to hear.
Click to expand...
There were definitely X-Rated themes in music back then. There is nothing new under the sun. In fact as a musician you should know that chord progressions and melodies remain very nearly the same in modern pop music as they were in older pop music. The lyrics in many older songs were exactly as trite as those that are present today. The problem is that people like you are always comparing the GOOD bands from the 1960s and 1950s. The ones that are still remembered today, with ALL of the bands today. There were poor bands in the 50s and 60s, but people don’t remember that because nobody talks about them anymore.
 
AMFV said:
There were definitely X-Rated themes in music back then. There is nothing new under the sun. In fact as a musician you should know that chord progressions and melodies remain very nearly the same in modern pop music as they were in older pop music. The lyrics in many older songs were exactly as trite as those that are present today. The problem is that people like you are always comparing the GOOD bands from the 1960s and 1950s. The ones that are still remembered today, with ALL of the bands today. There were poor bands in the 50s and 60s, but people don’t remember that because nobody talks about them anymore.
Click to expand...
You are right , AMFV that there were trite & X-rated themes in the 50’s &60’s, but they weren’t as blatant and numerous as they are today. Neither were there songs with F-bombs & drug references sprinkled throughout.
Read about the Veterans Day Tribute Concert the other day which was a fiasco that would never have happened even a few years ago!
The music structure is nearly the same as you said, although a lot more songs today have repetitious phrases. This was always more evident in R&R and Country than in movie & Broadway Show themes.
My point really is what this topic started to bring out . …music is becoming more immoral and if we are not discerning in our listening it can become a danger to our salvation.
Of course, we all look back & remember the good artists & songs and tend to forget the bad.
 
Ben_Sinner said:
I ran across an online article trying to find out about Rock music and Catholicism

I found this article from a Catholic professor that has made me feel scrupulous:eek:.

catholiceducation.org/en/culture/art/music-and-morality.html

Here is what he said:

*"What kind of musical environment can help to create a good moral environment? Here are some broad suggestions…
  1. Music that can be shared.* Rock drives a wedge between generations. Parents and children cant share songs like Princes Darling Nikki (about a girl masturbating with a magazine) or Van Halens Hot for Teacher.
  2. Music that channels emotions. The basic appeal of music is an emotional one.
  3. Music that shapes the soul. Morality is not simply about learning the rules of right and wrong, it is about a total alignment of our selves.
  4. Music that has stood the test of time.
5.** Music that tells a story**…morality does not thrive in a climate of nihilism…MTV, accordingly, does away with narrative and replaces it with what filmmakers call montage: a rapid sequence of loosely connected images…Non-narrative is not exactly the same thing as nihilistic, but its the next thing.

Its # 4 and #5 that have me scratching my head…#5 especially.

Is this saying that it is a sin for someone to listen/make music that doesn’t have a narrative, make/watch a montage video, etc etc.???

Is this saying that one should not listen to music unless it has a narrative and stands the test of time? It is best we only listen to linear narratives?
Click to expand...
Let me address these points one by one:
  1. I don’t know how old you are but a lot of people in my generation had parents that grew up with the Rock music of the 60’s, 70’s, 80’, and 90’s and maybe the 50’s as well. With my parents, they grew up with the Rock music of 60’s, 70’s, 80’s and 90’s with the 50’s thrown in. That being said, the stuff that I listen to would not be considered divisive between generations because my parents listen to the same stuff. A lot of baby boomers did/do.
You can be discriminate in what songs you listen to or share if you feel that it is bad. But I wouldn’t say Rock music is bad whole sale.
  1. I’m guessing with this point the author is trying to say that Rock music appeals to base emotions and therefore is bad or that some songs should be avoided? But isn’t that the thing with all music though. As I’m sitting here listening to Cyndi Lauper I’m feeling emotions but it’s not emotions of hate or anger. People have tried to argue since the 50’s that Rock appeals to the wrong emotions but I can tell it’s not an across the board approach in which that music appeals to the same emotion.
Different songs appeal to different emotions. That being said, if you are listening to a song that is evoking the wrong emotions for you then I would change that song and listen to something else.
  1. I really don’t see how Rock music shapes one soul. I learned more about right and wrong from parents than I did from Rock music and they did play that music when I was a kid along with Country and Jazz. Just because you listen to Rock music doesn’t mean that you’re going to do something wrong or become a bad person. There are Catholics that I know who listen to Rock music and are fine and if they did commit sins then it wasn’t because of the music, it was because of something else.
What we do is shaped by our conscience and our moral compass and I think that Rock music has very little effect on someone’s conscience or moral compass. There are bigger things that can effect it like our parents, schools, friends, churches, government, etc. But if you are grounded in your faith, which starts at home I believe, then you will not be effected Rock music. Even if you aren’t, like I said, there are bigger things out there that have more influence than Rock music.
  1. This has me kind of scratching my head myself. Perhaps you can clarify what the author means by that. My only guess is that since it’s timeless then there can be lasting of effects of Rock music on people? I don’t know. I’d have to read the article myself.
  2. I’m confused to this one as well. By reading the definition of nihilism I’m assuming that if the songs don’t tell a story then they are destructive? So I’m guessing is that he’s saying that Rock music makes people selfish and immoral? I’d have to read it to get a better understanding at the author is saying.
Hope this addresses your concerns.
 
If you listen to immoral songs and approve of them or are neutral about them, the words still put wrong thoughts in your head. Listening to those types of songs over and over again will be like meditating on the immoral - always a bad thing.

biblecc.com/philippians/4-8.htm

If you put good, uplifting music into your head, it will make you feel good and perhaps incline you to imitate it or just enjoy it for its goodness. I have wonderful memories of beautiful songs. Great instrumentals, great lyrics.

Ed
 
edwest2 said:
If you listen to immoral songs and approve of them or are neutral about them, the words still put wrong thoughts in your head. Listening to those types of songs over and over again will be like meditating on the immoral - always a bad thing.

biblecc.com/philippians/4-8.htm

If you put good, uplifting music into your head, it will make you feel good and perhaps incline you to imitate it or just enjoy it for its goodness. I have wonderful memories of beautiful songs. Great instrumentals, great lyrics.

Ed
Click to expand...
AMEN , brother! 👍
 
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