Music And The Church Building

[SMHW]

This was inspired by the Guitar Mass thread.

Here in California the vast majority of Church buildings (and parishes) were constructed post-Vatican II. While they do have some stone and brick in the construction I’d have to say the majority of them are built with soft materials in the interior and don’t have the kind of acoustics that are typical of some older buildings. (In general, you don’t want that kind of older construction in California; it takes a wealthy parish to be able to make such buildings earthquake safe.)

In any case, such buildings often are more suited to the sounds of pianos and other such instruments than to the sounds of an organ.

(For the record, my parish has a fairly expensive organ donated when the church was dedicated in 1995 but for the time being we have electric speakers rather than pipes. Someday, when we’re done paying for other things… At the moment we don’t have a regular accompanist who know how to play the organ. The choir director can but there’s no way he can play and conduct at the same time.)

Our parish usually sings contemporary songs. That’s what the people want, for the most part. We’ve asked. Yes, they do like some of the ‘classics’ but they prefer ‘lively’ music. And they like having a ‘band’ with drums, brass, and guitar to go with the piano.

I’m wondering if the reason for the contemporary preference is because chant and sacred polyphony can sometimes sound dead in a modern building. Organ music in a church built for organ sounds very alive. In our church, you need jazzier instruments to bring things to life.

I’d like to know if there is a correlation between people’s preference for type of instrument and style of music with the accoustics of the church buildings.

 

[Cat]

It’s an interesting question.

I play piano in a parish that meets in a one-hundred year-old church. The sanctuary is quite ornate.

65.36.195.32/index.asp

(Wait for the pictures to change–there are several of the sanctuary.)

The (elderly) people have told me over and over again that they prefer contemporary music, not Latin.

Hmmm…

 

[Sarabande]

This is an interesting correlation. To an extent, I would say yes. Churches in the past were built with acoustics in mind for a choir and an organ, especially before they had sound systems and microphones. Many times, the choir/organ loft would be at the back of the church or the Cathedral, so they had to be built or order for the sound to carry throughout the church without the use of a sound system. In our Cathedral, a piano (real or electric) would virtually get lost in there. String quartets or trios would get lost in there as well - not as much as a piano though. I’ve heard both in the Cathedral when there has been concerts or weddings. The organ and the choir really does sound best in that environment.

I’ve been in churches that were built after Vatican II and have had the problems with acoustics as you described. They need microphones (even for the choir) as sometimes the sound is very DEAD in them. Most can’t afford a real pipe organ, so if there is an organ, they get an electric one, which no matter how “good” they get them, it just doesn’t make the cut. A piano could sound better in them because of the way the building is constructed, but if the congregation sings like the way they do at my home parish (they REALLY like to sing), you wouldn’t be able to hear the piano unless it’s amplified, which also has the same effect as an electric organ.

That all said, I believe the musicianship also has a lot to determine in what a person or a congregation “likes” for their music liturgy. I said this in guitar thread, but if you have a poorly trained musician in any genre of music, it’s going to be a bad experience. I’m constantly being thanked for my voice and have been told that it helps them with their prayer at mass or that when they die, they want to “hear your voice in heaven”, at both my parish and the Cathedral, as many people are tired of hearing badly trained singers up there, so I can understand people not liking “sopranos”. Unfortunately, a lot of the good organists don’t play in Catholic Churches. For people that I know it is because the churches can’t afford to pay a livable wage, so they settle for someone not so good or the sweet, old lady that lives in the parish. No what the instrument, if the musician is excellent and well-trained, I will be inspired, but, unfortunately, I just have yet to be inspired by a guitarrist at mass. I have for a pianist though.

At my home parish, there was huge uproar a couple of years ago regarding the music. There used to be lots of drums, bongos, more pop-like music, etc. The congregation complained LOUDLY. This congregation is mostly made of young families, so it’s not old and on their way out the door, but young and vibrant. They really like to sing as well, which is great, because as a cantor, I really don’t need to sing into the microphone, but just lead them in, etc. since they know the hymns. The parish took a survey and they ended up with a nice compromise for the most part. Most of the masses have more of the traditional hymns with organ. There are at least two standard from centuries past and two 20th/21st century hymns. They also have a guitar mass and a band-like mass - I guess it’s like their youth mass? I don’t know. I only attend mass there once a month to cantor since I’m usually down at our Cathedral.

At our Cathedral the visitors and parishioners are always in awe with the organ and even with the choir. The organist is one of the best in the city and really knows how to play. He loves the music and it shows. We do all classical compositions and traditional hymns ranging from Chant to 20th century classical composers for the high mass. Low masses, we just do traditional hymns. He doesn’t like it because he’s humble about his position, but he gets applauded after almost every mass. People have said they wish they could have a music program and musician like this. So for what it’s worth… it probably a mix of architecture and musicianship with some other varieties in between.

 

[Gearoidin]

Our church (called a cathedral but about the size of a rural parish church in Ireland) was built between 1955 and 1965. It is build of a mixture of stone and wood and had to be retrofitted for earthquake proofing after the Great Hanshin Earthquake in 1995. It is a modern, simple deisgn with only 2 statues , both carved from single blocks of wood , and the stations of the cross, again carved from single blocks of wood. When the church was build back in 1955, it was build to include a choir loft and organ. The ceiling was specially designed to give us good acoustics. The organ was finally installed in 1970.
At the 10am mass we have the organ and choir but for some reason the choir sits in the centre of the church in in the loft. The singing isn’t wonderful but not awful either. The organ actually sounds quite good.
The English and Spanish Masses are guitar, drums. flutes, clarinet, etc Masses. At both the musicians sit at the front, us microphones and it is very loud. Too loud for such a small building
Personally I much prefer the organ, even in this modern building. Perhaps if we had something more like calssical guitar I might feel differently.
Gearoidin

 

[brotherhrolf]

Mine is a cathedral - one of the very first to be renovated after VII.

Ripped out the choir loft. Ripped out the organ. Installed a state of the art (late 60s) electronic organ. I joined the cathedral choir in 1983. The organ lasted until 1988 when it literally shorted out and caught on fire during a choir member’s wedding.

Our organist had a wooden medieval portative organ which we used for a year. Then we went to a harpsichord (which was very, very lovely for the choir, except that it couldn’t be heard at the back of the church). Then we used a loaned baby grand.

Ultimately, in honor of our parish’s 200th anniversary, we got the choir loft restored and a new pipe organ. The sound of both organ and choir is awesome.

http://christianformationbr.org/common/images/upload/45f192f1e7a5b_full.jpg

This building is meant for a choir loft and organ.

Oh yeah, those two squares in the center of the choir loft are panels from the original high altar of the church.

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

My church is Gothic in style, and over one hundred years old. We have a pipe organ and choir loft (4 stories high). The acoustics are wonderful for music, but terrible for speech. If the priest’s or reader’s voice is weak, it gets lost (even with a microphone); if it’s strong, it thunders and echoes. The choir is easily heard (no microphones needed), and it generally sounds as if there are twice as many people singing as are actually up there. The organ sounds great, too. We sing a wide variety of music from different eras; my favorites come from the classical repertoire.

My previous parish was in a small town, and they had one of those newer-style church buildings. There was no choir loft; we sat in a special, recessed area near the front of the church. Acoustically, it was completely dead. We needed microphones for anyone to be able to hear us at all. I had occasion to go to Mass there recently, and there has been a change – the old choir area has been gutted in order to accommodate an elevator, and what used to be the “cry room” is now the area for the music ministries (with the glass walls removed). It’s a little better, acoustically.

 

[WestonGrant]

I think some of the problem isn’t just the instrument is the song they play with the instrument. I’ve seen a very respectful and beautifual guitar Mass and a really disrespectful and depressing Mass with a Pipe organ.

Some of the songs they pick out almost sound like something from the Barney show.

I’d rather have no music at all than that.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Well, this is the hallmark theme which goes on and on in these threads. I know the heritage of sacred music which has been left to us. I have to say in all honesty, I’ve never heard a disrespectful or depressing Mass with a pipe organ. I have heard that which I did not expect to hear or wanted to hear with guitars, keyboards, drums, etc.

We drive 25 miles and have driven since 1983 precisely because I have this “vision”. It comes down to this. I sang in a children’s choir before Vatican II. I was an altar boy as well. I was sick one weekend in December a few years ago and instead of singing with my choir, I went to Mass at my geographic parish. They sang “Prepare Ye the Way of the Lord” from the Broadway musical “Godspel”. Over a thousand years of musical heritage from which to draw, and the choir sings a Broadway hit with drums, guitars, and keyboard.

How hard is it sing “Oh, come, oh, come Emmanuel” - hey- it wouldn’t even be hard in Latin. Or, you could even sing “The King of Glory Comes” with tambourine - we’ve done that too. Hymn is in Worship III. Can you see the connection or rather disconnect between what we as Catholics have as our sacred heritage and a reliance upon popular media?

 

[WestonGrant]

Oh my gosh brotherhrolf! That’s so completely lame. A broadway tune!

You’ve got one up on me.

Though maybe not when I remember this one. Can you imagine hearing this one: Imagine by John Lennon. Yeah…think about it.

And no religion too…

I was too young to know better. No I look back to it and freak out. I mean, come on, what was that pastor thinking?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

What I like you hardly ever hear and that is the organ played SOFT enough and the piano played LOUD enough to where the BLEND is beautiful!

The other instruments that I think sound good are kettle drums and French horns.

Snare drums, tamborines, guitars, even other stringed instruments–BOO!

Harps and Flutes can sound good but only in certain situations.

Bells sound great!

 

[Zooey]

I think the OP is on to something. I sing most years in an ecumenical choir which puts on a cantata on Palm Sunday afternoon in another church, & the same evening in mine, which is an older, built-for-organ-and-choir church…
The order of the 2 services is always the same, & when anyone tries to change it, the choir all tear out our hair, & threaten to “strike”. The other church is shiny-new, & built for electrical everything. None of us would have any voices left, if we were to try to sing there for the second time in one day. It is, as has been siad before “dead”. You push with all you have, just to make yourself heard.
When we get to my church, where the architecture is done for organ & choir music, you can feel the difference. Effortless.
I’m guessing that this is part of what is going on. That people don’t realize why some music is less “alive” in some church buildings.
Bringing me inevitably to the question: Are all architects these days tone deaf, or what?? All the newer churches seem to be horrible for musicians… Maybe we have a whole generation of rock-fan architects, who have no idea how to build for a choir???

 

[Guitar]

brotherhrolf, if you have never heard a depressing Mass with pipe organ, you are lucky. I’ve heard plenty, from both “ordinary” and professional organists.

Ones where everything has been played on full-principal-chorus-plus-reeds from one end to t’other (registration with a shovel), or on inadequate 8- and 4-foot flute chorus only. Many where it was clear that for the organist and choir, music had ceased to serve God and had become “God”. Ones where everything is flattened into the same flavour of bland no matter what it’s original style. Ones where the organist clearly has never opened his own mouth in song as he has no idea how to “breath with the congregation” and nips at their heels until the harried bods in the pew give up and leave him to it. One memorable one in probably the highest-profile Catholic church in England where everytime the extremely competent cantor tried to lead us in chant (they even printed the neumes in the bulletin!) the organist came crashing in on full organ, steamrolling her flat and sending the rest of us through the roof …

I have my preferences in church music style but overall I would rather have instrumentation that worked in the building than instrumentation that I objectively prefer but, due to a mismatch, cannot lead the people/sounds grating or a complete mess. I believe JS Bach said something like, “the most important stop on the organ is the building” and that is sooooo true. In greater Sydney there are many disastrous organ + building combinations where the organ for various reasons is incapable of leading or, at the other end of the spectrum, screams such that you leave the service with jangling nerves. I’ve worked in literally hundreds of churches over nearly twenty years for all kinds of services, and I’ve kinda seen it all!

My home church has pretty dead acoustics and even quite big voices need a mic. Our PA is rubbish (I’m in the process of replacing it) and so for big occasions I bring in very high quality gear - at that level of hi-fi, the building suits acoustic instruments best. The organ sounds pretty good, though, thanks in part to a subtle smudge of digital reverb.

Thankfully, we seem to be leaving the era of letting the architect determine the acoustic design behind.

 

[Guitar]

Maybe we have a whole generation of rock-fan architects, who have no idea how to build for a choir???

I think we had a generation that just did not recognise that acoustic aspects of design. Were I to design an acoustic for rock, I wouldn’t go for the acoustic of most modern churches that I’ve been in.

You’re right about having no voices left - I don’t have a huge voice but I have sung solos in some quite big places, no problem, and yet other churches that are quite small have felt like I was trying to sing inside a flour sack.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Oh my gosh brotherhrolf! That’s so completely lame. A broadway tune!

You’ve got one up on me.

Though maybe not when I remember this one. Can you imagine hearing this one: Imagine by John Lennon. Yeah…think about it.

And no religion too…

I was too young to know better. No I look back to it and freak out. I mean, come on, what was that pastor thinking?

I don’t have to think about it. We sang Simon and Garfunkle’s “Bridge over Troubled Waters” and “Sounds of Silence” at my high school graduation in May of 1969. This is nothing new for me.

Guitar - I can honestly say to you that I have never heard a depressing organ Mass. Pedestrian? Yes. Depressing? No. But I have to admit that most of the churches in which I have attended Mass were all built before Vatican II and had acoustics disposed towards unamplified singing. Providence, our organ, is quite capable of lifting the roof off of the cathedral. I have heard it happen when the organist of the cathedral in Lyons, France gave a concert performance. But our organist/Music Director knows the limits of the instrument and has never pushed it.

Our church was built in 1852 with choir loft and organ. Choir loft and organ got ripped out during Vatican II. Choir loft and organ were replaced in 1992.

I have not heard any depressing Masses using amplified guitars, drums, and keyboards. I have heard any number of Masses using said instruments which were for me the functional equivalent of hearing nails scratched down a black board.

I recognize that the organ can overwhelm the congregation. I also realize that the band is quite capable of the same fault.

 

[Guitar]

I recognize that the organ can overwhelm the congregation. I also realize that the band is quite capable of the same fault.

Agreed - no genre of music has a monopoly on “bad”. And “bad” can have a lot of ingredients.

 

[Sarabande]

Bringing me inevitably to the question: Are all architects these days tone deaf, or what?? All the newer churches seem to be horrible for musicians… Maybe we have a whole generation of rock-fan architects, who have no idea how to build for a choir???

My brother is an architect and he would be pretty honest to say that there are architects today who just don’t understand the importance of acoustics and actually just don’t know how to design a church properly - or at least within the budget of the parish. The other problem today is that when a church is built, the people want everything now. But if you want things done totally right, it takes time and money. We forget that many of these older churches and, especially Cathedrals, were built within decades - sometimes within two, three, four or more generations. With each generation came more improvements,although acoustically, that seemed to be important early on in the design and building. Since we do have amplification, people have forgotten the beauty of an unamplified voice or instrument within an accoustically-perfect room, so it tends to be left out of the design. The importance now is how quickly they can get the church built and if it is “functional” as my brother and his colleagues would say.

 

[anthony022071]

I’d like to know if there is a correlation between people’s preference for type of instrument and style of music with the accoustics of the church buildings.

It doesn’t have to do with acoustics. It’s a matter of whether or not people know,or care about,what kinds of music are appropriate for the sanctity of the mass. The relativization of truth in religion has brought with it the relativization of taste and appropriateness in church music.

 

[lak611]

I think the OP is on to something. I sing most years in an ecumenical choir which puts on a cantata on Palm Sunday afternoon in another church, & the same evening in mine, which is an older, built-for-organ-and-choir church…
The order of the 2 services is always the same, & when anyone tries to change it, the choir all tear out our hair, & threaten to “strike”. The other church is shiny-new, & built for electrical everything. None of us would have any voices left, if we were to try to sing there for the second time in one day. It is, as has been siad before “dead”. You push with all you have, just to make yourself heard.
When we get to my church, where the architecture is done for organ & choir music, you can feel the difference. Effortless.
I’m guessing that this is part of what is going on. That people don’t realize why some music is less “alive” in some church buildings.
Bringing me inevitably to the question: Are all architects these days tone deaf, or what?? All the newer churches seem to be horrible for musicians… Maybe we have a whole generation of rock-fan architects, who have no idea how to build for a choir???

I went to a special anniversary celebration at First United Methodist Church in downtown Cleveland a few years ago. The church had been in disrepair and was almost closed. The pastor was able to attract new members and restore the church. Their organist is one of the best. The organ is amazing too. I was awestruck by the beauty of the organ. The chancel choir was amazing too.

 

[NPC]

Hi,

I’m an organist and chorister in a cathedral parish in Ireland, and I have no doubt that, where possible, the organ should be used in the liturgy - if there’s an organ and an organist. I believe that other instruments should only be used as a last resort or if they truly enhance the solemn atmosphere which is necessary for the Mass, which they rarely do in my (probably biased) opinion!
I do understand that many post-Vatican ii churches were designed without due regard to the importance of music in the liturgy, and so we have churches with terrible acoustics, no choir gallery, no organ (well, maybe an electronic one); however I don’t think the great musical traditions of the Church should be disregarded simply because of inclement acoustics - ie: Chant and Sacred Polyphony. This is music of a truly spiritual nature - people are at Mass to worship and recieve the Lord. The important thing is not focusing on the music, but focusing on God because of the music. If they want jazzy music they should be at a rock concert!!
You also mention that the choir director can play the organ, but would not be able to conduct at the same time. He/She should play the organ - if their articulation and phrasing is clear the choir/congregation will be fine without a conductor! Also, Gregorian chant is sung unaccompanied so the congregation could easily join in with the choir and the choir director could conduct! Perhaps if congregational participation was strongly encouraged, the acoustics would not be such an issue?
The bottom line is that there is no other instrument available which encourages participation than the organ - even if it is only a small pipe-organ or a digital one. I also play at the vigil Mass in another parish (post V-ii) which has a small one manual and pedal organ (7 stops) and weak acoustics, and I would still choose the organ over keyboard, guitar etc. any day!! And guess what? - EVERYONE SINGS!
I say give the organ and time-honoured chant, hymns (and maybe polyphony) a chance. Chant will sound lively, despite the acoustic, if it does not drag and if it flows naturally. With good support from the organ people will be inspired to join in singing traditional hymns too!
With Best Wishes.