Music at Mass, Again

[EasterJoy]

EasterJoy, Hymns are not suitable for Mass! Mass properly consists of prayers for that particular day; so the argument about which hymns are better or whether a MD should go with his favorite Protestant song writer or this number-one-on-the-charts P&W number is irrelevant actually. When the good bishops decide that their flock can actually accept that and that their souls will be better for the decision, the Liturgy will actually be Liturgy!

Oh, not another “when the bishops have been properly instructed and their formation accomplished, all will be well with the Church and the liturgy” opinion. No, please, no, a thousand times, no.

Let the bishops be the bishops…and yes, although Gregorian chant has a pre-eminent place, it is *not *the only music that can properly be used at Mass. Panis Angelicus is a hymn, and it is properly used AT MASS. Mass ideally includes singing, and a good deal of it!

Again, if you try arguments like these you are posting here on your music minister, pastor, or local bishop, you will get exactly nowhere.

 

[GemmaRose]

Oh, not another “when the bishops have been properly instructed and their formation accomplished, all will be well with the Church and the liturgy” opinion. No, please, no, a thousand times, no.

Let the bishops be the bishops…and yes, although Gregorian chant has a pre-eminent place, it is *not *the only music that can properly be used at Mass. Panis Angelicus is a hymn, and it is properly used AT MASS. Mass ideally includes singing, and a good deal of it!

Again, if you try arguments like these you are posting here on your music minister, pastor, or local bishop, you will get exactly nowhere.

:clapping:

 

[Cat]

Oh, not another “when the bishops have been properly instructed and their formation accomplished, all will be well with the Church and the liturgy” opinion. No, please, no, a thousand times, no.

Let the bishops be the bishops…and yes, although Gregorian chant has a pre-eminent place, it is *not *the only music that can properly be used at Mass. Panis Angelicus is a hymn, and it is properly used AT MASS. Mass ideally includes singing, and a good deal of it!

Again, if you try arguments like these you are posting here on your music minister, pastor, or local bishop, you will get exactly nowhere.

Thank you. And thank you for your earlier posts, especially the one that says that rather than criticizing and “proving from the documents” why all the hymns that Catholics like are “inappropriate” or “irreverent,” it would be better for the critics to promote “the true music of the Church” that they apparently know more about than the bishops.

I don’t understand why these people don’t campaign to become “Minister of Music of the Vatican,” since they know so much. I’m very serious about this. My father taught me that if I am willing to criticize, I should also be willing to be in charge so that I can make the changes that I am convinced need to be made.

These people are insulting my priests and my bishop by insinuating that they are in league with the devil publishing house. I resent that very, very much.

Someone asked why Catholic Churches use Protestant music?

The answer is, because it’s GOOD!

Here is a “Protestant” song. elyrics.net/read/t/twila-paris-lyrics/how-beautiful-lyrics.html

It was sung in a Mass that my daughter attended a few weeks ago, and she burst into tears. You don’t like the song? You think that the use of “bread” and “wine” is inappropriate?

Tough.

Maybe if you were ex-Protestant, you would like it. Just because we aren’t Protestant anymore doesn’t mean that we have flushed our brothers and sisters and all our happy memories down the toilet. Those were once OUR people, and we love them. If nothing else, so-called “Protestant” songs remind us that we still have work to do on this earth.

Frankly, I think you are walking on very thin ice to criticize ANY song, spiritual song, and hymn, because it is the LORD Who gives the talent and inspiration to write songs about Him. **And if the priests and/or bishop approve of those songs for Mass, then you are not just critizing a man or men, you are critizing the emissaries of Christ Himself. ** You’d better be right.

I think that the Word of God makes it clear that criticizing and causing divisions is a much more serious sin than singing a song that is allegorical or that uses a word-picture to express a spiritual truth.

Of course, using the Word of God to rebuke someone is also a “Protestant thing,” isn’t it?

Which is more important, the “documents,” or “the Holy Scriptures?”

 

[snhs]

Thank you. And thank you for your earlier posts, especially the one that says that rather than criticizing and “proving from the documents” why all the hymns that Catholics like are “inappropriate” or “irreverent,” it would be better for the critics to promote “the true music of the Church” that they apparently know more about than the bishops.

I don’t understand why these people don’t campaign to become “Minister of Music of the Vatican,” since they know so much. I’m very serious about this. My father taught me that if I am willing to criticize, I should also be willing to be in charge so that I can make the changes that I am convinced need to be made.

These people are insulting my priests and my bishop by insinuating that they are in league with the devil publishing house. I resent that very, very much.

Someone asked why Catholic Churches use Protestant music?

The answer is, because it’s GOOD!

Here is a “Protestant” song. elyrics.net/read/t/twila-paris-lyrics/how-beautiful-lyrics.html

It was sung in a Mass that my daughter attended a few weeks ago, and she burst into tears. You don’t like the song? You think that the use of “bread” and “wine” is inappropriate?

Tough.

Maybe if you were ex-Protestant, you would like it. Just because we aren’t Protestant anymore doesn’t mean that we have flushed our brothers and sisters and all our happy memories down the toilet. Those were once OUR people, and we love them. If nothing else, so-called “Protestant” songs remind us that we still have work to do on this earth.

Frankly, I think you are walking on very thin ice to criticize ANY song, spiritual song, and hymn, because it is the LORD Who gives the talent and inspiration to write songs about Him. **And if the priests and/or bishop approve of those songs for Mass, then you are not just critizing a man or men, you are critizing the emissaries of Christ Himself. ** You’d better be right.

I think that the Word of God makes it clear that criticizing and causing divisions is a much more serious sin than singing a song that is allegorical or that uses a word-picture to express a spiritual truth.

Of course, using the Word of God to rebuke someone is also a “Protestant thing,” isn’t it?

Which is more important, the “documents,” or “the Holy Scriptures?”

Yeah, reading Church documents to guide what should happen in the liturgy is such a horrible thing to do isn’t it? After all why should we bother listening to the Vatican when we have a perfectly good lay person up there strumming on a guitar every Sunday.

So obviously before anyone can criticise the Iraq War they’d need to be a General able to take command or a career politician qualified to become President, right? The Vatican is one of the few places which knows what it’s doing liturgy wise, you only need to look at the example of the Holy Father and his Papal MC to see that. What is needed is for the rest of the Church to follow where Peter leads.

We already know that certain hymnals were wrong in using songs with Yaweh in them, we already know that Pope John Paul II had actually criticised the practice in a document previously. I wonder how many other errors exist in the same hymnals and hymns which many Parishes use week in week out?

Obviously no accounting for taste and even basic standards on something like this. I wouldn’t call it good or even passable, compared to Palestrina it’s absolute tripe and compared to Gregorian Chant, well there really is no comparison with Gregorian Chant. It may be good in your view, but you can’t exactly speak for the rest of the congregation. It may be good for former protestants to remind them of their ‘services’ before converting, but that is categorically not what the Mass is about. If you like listening to such songs then do so in your own time, when it comes to Mass it is the standards of the Church which prevail and should be enforced, not some passing and sentimental fancy for the songs of your youth.

And I suppose it was the Lord that gave Luther the talent and inspiration to separate from the Church, and the Lord that divinely inspired Henry to bump off another wife? If it was the Lord that inspired Spinal Tap or whatever to write a heavy metal rendition of a song which mentioned Christ a few times would that make it suitable for Mass? And what if they are divinely inspired to have a disco ball, lasers and bubble machines, why not just let them have it because obviously since the Lord inspired them to write the songs with such things in mind they should be included in the liturgy of the Catholic Church? I seem to remember your own Bishop called some of these hymns ‘dreck’ and bemoaned the lose of Catholic liturgical music, although maybe he was “walking on thin ice” to do so, after all if it creates an emotional reaction it must be appropriate for the Mass. We don’t need to worry about “being right” as you put it, Benedictgal is stating the will of the Church as expressed in Her writings on the music suitable for liturgy. Unless of course you dispute the right of the Church to decide on such things? (And I’m speaking of the Universal Church here, not just what one Bishop might say)

So if a hymn divides us into those who come from a Protestant background and those who are cradle Catholics then obviously it isn’t appropriate for the Mass. Rather we should use the music of the Church, of which we are all members. And if we go our separate ways after Mass has ended listening to P&W or Gregorian Chant in the car then that’s fine too.

Given that the Catholic Church predates the Protestant Church by quite a considerable period it seems more likely it is a Catholic thing which has been distorted by the Protestant Church. the main difference of course is that a Catholic would normally use a different interpretation* of some very important passages. (normally known by Catholics as the correct interpretation)

If you can show me where in the Bible it says, ‘sing whatever you like at Mass, I really don’t care’ and ‘when I said to Peter that whole bind and lose thing I was joking’ then maybe your view could be right.

 

[VociMike]

My answer to this, should I ever be asked, is to affirm the truth in it and show where the Church and my diocese holds this in the highest esteem and incorporates it as the primary source of music in cathedral Masses and all main Masses. After all, the quotes are that the Church holds Gregorian chant in highest esteem, not each parish must use chant primarily. I would then help such a one to participate in the diocesan choir, if they desired. In addition, I would offer to help them in any way to assemble a choir for Gregorian chant and offer them as many Masses as they could handle.

Nobody claims that each parish “must use chant primarily”. However, it is equally false that it is enough if chant is used in cathedral Masses “and all main Masses” (not at all sure what that means).

Sacrosanctum Concilium states:
117. The editio typica of the books of Gregorian chant is to be completed; and a more critical edition is to be prepared of those books already published since the restoration by Saint Pius X.

It is desirable also that an edition be prepared containing simpler melodies, for use in small churches

“Jubilate Deo” is that edition of simpler melodies. It is suitable and intended for every parish church.

Just One Mass A Week, using the music proper to the Roman liturgy and most highly esteemed by the Church. That’s not asking too much. The faithful in every parish deserve an opportunity to have the music that Vatican II declared to hold pride of place.

 

[Brownginger]

EasterJoy, In my earlier posts, I pointed out that I agree that the metaphorical use of the term “bread” and of its use to indicate that Jesus’ Body is food, nourishment, bread from Heaven is not heretical and is in fact the precise way to describe the Eucharist. Say it all you want outside of Mass, during the readings, in song, whisper it, shout it! You have my blessing:thumbsup: Just don’t say, after the Consecration at Mass without descriptive adjective or phrase denoting the truth, that we eat, take, receive, break just plain bread! (As a member of the flock, I have noticed lately a little bit of wool behind my ears!)

As for singing, properly the whole Mass should be sung. You and everyone clapping for what you say and especially Cat don’t understand and refuse to understand (and such misunderstanding has been implemented by the errors of – yes – the bishops) is that the Mass is a Sacrifice. It is modeled on the sacrifices of the Old Testament and there are very strict guidelines, guidelines that have been ignored for centuries. There is song that we are entering the house of the Lord for Eucharist. There is the song of praise, the songs of the day, the songs asking forgiveness and recognizing the Lord in the breaking of the bread (before Consecretion). There is song giving thanks and song to take us on our way to tell the world. Nowhere is there room for song that makes us feel good about our roots!

chns has it just right! And the Church has the authority to interpret what is the proper manner intended by Jesus for Mass to be celebrated. Scripture is just the starting place!

 

[pnewton]

Nobody claims that each parish “must use chant primarily”. However, it is equally false that it is enough if chant is used in cathedral Masses “and all main Masses” (not at all sure what that means).

It was kind of vague, I know, but no more than a “place of pride.” The bottom line is we do not all have the personnel who can provide Gregorian chant. That is why if someone wants it, then they can have it. All I would need is a solution. On the other hand, we use CD’s for confession and before Mass. Those are Gregorian chants. It is hard to provide what you do not have.

 

[frommi]

If they really read those documents, they wouldn’t be shoveling out half of what they are publishing. Furthermore, they wouldn’t be writing music for the parts of the Mass that pretty much paraphrases the words.

Why would the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist have made the statement regarding the problems with music used at Youth Masses? If the publishing houses had taken the documents to heart, none of that would have been said by the Fathers.

The problem is that music for the Mass is not an anything goes. Horrid experimentation happened immediately after the Council. The music watered down Doctrine and took the Joan Baez/Carpenters approach to lyrics and style.

Show me something they are publishing as a ‘mass setting’ or a ‘mass ordinary’ that is a paraphrase of the current translation

 

[benedictgal]

Show me something they are publishing as a ‘mass setting’ or a ‘mass ordinary’ that is a paraphrase of the current translation

How about the infernal Gloria by Christopher Walker? IF that is not a paraphrase, then, what is? This is the one that features that annoying clapping. There is also a version of the Agnus Dei in the OCP Rise Up and Sing songbook that is not even remotely similar to the prayer. One of the settings for the Great Amen found in the Spirit and Song book adds words, a big no-no.

Furthermore, the OCP versions of the Gloria in Spanish omit references to Jesus Christ and the Father, thereby cutting out 1/3 of the Gloria.

 

[frommi]

How about the infernal Gloria by Christopher Walker? IF that is not a paraphrase, then, what is? This is the one that features that annoying clapping. There is also a version of the Agnus Dei in the OCP Rise Up and Sing songbook that is not even remotely similar to the prayer. One of the settings for the Great Amen found in the Spirit and Song book adds words, a big no-no.

Furthermore, the OCP versions of the Gloria in Spanish omit references to Jesus Christ and the Father, thereby cutting out 1/3 of the Gloria.

That Gloria is by Mike Anderson and is no longer published as a ‘gloria’, it’s a hymn in the hymn’s section…surely you know the difference.

The Archbishop of Portland sits on the board of directors of OCP…perhaps you should question his judgment in the form of a letter.

 

[pnewton]

The Archbishop of Portland sits on the board of directors of OCP…perhaps you should question his judgment in the form of a letter.

No need. The Holy Father carries more weight and he has halted such silliness. With the implementation of the new translations, all other Glorias will be proscribed and the new translation will have to be followed. The very reason that the new translation will not be mandated is to give time for publishers to correct past mistakes.

Rather than right letters, it is far better to question their judgment by not purchasing their materials. Money talks, etc.

I don’t know what it is with the Pacific Ocean or the water out there, but OCP is one more example of west coast thinking that leaves me scratching my head.

 

[benedictgal]

That Gloria is by Mike Anderson and is no longer published as a ‘gloria’, it’s a hymn in the hymn’s section…surely you know the difference.

The Archbishop of Portland sits on the board of directors of OCP…perhaps you should question his judgment in the form of a letter.

True, but, the silliness still persists. There are many parishes who use that Gloria. No, that Gloria is by Christopher Walker.

Furthermore, just because the Metropolitan of Portland sits on the board doesn’t guarantee that OCP is free from errors.

 

[agapewolf]

The Gloria with the double clap is by Anderson

 

[Brownginger]

There is no guarantee that the entire contents or even a major part of it were known by the Archbishop. These things are basically pro forma (hopefully!).

 

[Fitswimmer]

That Gloria is by Mike Anderson and is no longer published as a ‘gloria’, it’s a hymn in the hymn’s section…surely you know the difference.

The Archbishop of Portland sits on the board of directors of OCP…perhaps you should question his judgment in the form of a letter.

Our parish still uses it as a “gloria”…even better is the Caribbean Mass which sounds like something they’d use at the Polynesian Resort in Walt Disney World.

Dear Lord, please save us from lousy Mass settings!!!

I tend to be a traditionalist in terms of music at Mass-too much time spent singing classical music in choirs. I can appreciate praise and worship music in it’s place-I listen to it on my iPod and in the car. Listening to Christian radio stations is a great alternative for the garbage that’s on the “pop” radio these days.

The problem I see is that the music is designed as entertainment at Mass and that is NOT what it should be.

 

[Wolseley]

Another rant about liturgical music. When will it ever end?

When music at Mass improves.

Someone asked why Catholic Churches use Protestant music?

The answer is, because it’s GOOD!

Well, that’s more than be said for Haugen/Haas.

 

[pnewton]

Well, that’s more than be said for Haugen/Haas.

For most of their stuff, I could not agree more. That is why I prefer many of the Protestant hymns, the classic ones, any way.

 

[Cat]

Yeah, reading Church documents to guide what should happen in the liturgy is such a horrible thing to do isn’t it? After all why should we bother listening to the Vatican when we have a perfectly good lay person up there strumming on a guitar every Sunday.

So obviously before anyone can criticise the Iraq War they’d need to be a General able to take command or a career politician qualified to become President, right? The Vatican is one of the few places which knows what it’s doing liturgy wise, you only need to look at the example of the Holy Father and his Papal MC to see that. What is needed is for the rest of the Church to follow where Peter leads.

We already know that certain hymnals were wrong in using songs with Yaweh in them, we already know that Pope John Paul II had actually criticised the practice in a document previously. I wonder how many other errors exist in the same hymnals and hymns which many Parishes use week in week out?

Obviously no accounting for taste and even basic standards on something like this. I wouldn’t call it good or even passable, compared to Palestrina it’s absolute tripe and compared to Gregorian Chant, well there really is no comparison with Gregorian Chant. It may be good in your view, but you can’t exactly speak for the rest of the congregation. It may be good for former protestants to remind them of their ‘services’ before converting, but that is categorically not what the Mass is about. If you like listening to such songs then do so in your own time, when it comes to Mass it is the standards of the Church which prevail and should be enforced, not some passing and sentimental fancy for the songs of your youth.

And I suppose it was the Lord that gave Luther the talent and inspiration to separate from the Church, and the Lord that divinely inspired Henry to bump off another wife? If it was the Lord that inspired Spinal Tap or whatever to write a heavy metal rendition of a song which mentioned Christ a few times would that make it suitable for Mass? And what if they are divinely inspired to have a disco ball, lasers and bubble machines, why not just let them have it because obviously since the Lord inspired them to write the songs with such things in mind they should be included in the liturgy of the Catholic Church? I seem to remember your own Bishop called some of these hymns ‘dreck’ and bemoaned the lose of Catholic liturgical music, although maybe he was “walking on thin ice” to do so, after all if it creates an emotional reaction it must be appropriate for the Mass. We don’t need to worry about “being right” as you put it, Benedictgal is stating the will of the Church as expressed in Her writings on the music suitable for liturgy. Unless of course you dispute the right of the Church to decide on such things? (And I’m speaking of the Universal Church here, not just what one Bishop might say)

So if a hymn divides us into those who come from a Protestant background and those who are cradle Catholics then obviously it isn’t appropriate for the Mass. Rather we should use the music of the Church, of which we are all members. And if we go our separate ways after Mass has ended listening to P&W or Gregorian Chant in the car then that’s fine too.

Given that the Catholic Church predates the Protestant Church by quite a considerable period it seems more likely it is a Catholic thing which has been distorted by the Protestant Church. the main difference of course is that a Catholic would normally use a different interpretation* of some very important passages. (normally known by Catholics as the correct interpretation)

If you can show me where in the Bible it says, ‘sing whatever you like at Mass, I really don’t care’ and ‘when I said to Peter that whole bind and lose thing I was joking’ then maybe your view could be right.

If you can show me in the Bible where the liturgy of the Mass is, then maybe YOUR view could be right.

 

[snhs]

QUOTE=snhs Yeah, reading Church documents to guide what should happen in the liturgy is such a horrible thing to do isn’t it? After all why should we bother listening to the Vatican when we have a perfectly good lay person up there strumming on a guitar every Sunday.

So obviously before anyone can criticise the Iraq War they’d need to be a General able to take command or a career politician qualified to become President, right? The Vatican is one of the few places which knows what it’s doing liturgy wise, you only need to look at the example of the Holy Father and his Papal MC to see that. What is needed is for the rest of the Church to follow where Peter leads.

We already know that certain hymnals were wrong in using songs with Yaweh in them, we already know that Pope John Paul II had actually criticised the practice in a document previously. I wonder how many other errors exist in the same hymnals and hymns which many Parishes use week in week out?

Obviously no accounting for taste and even basic standards on something like this. I wouldn’t call it good or even passable, compared to Palestrina it’s absolute tripe and compared to Gregorian Chant, well there really is no comparison with Gregorian Chant. It may be good in your view, but you can’t exactly speak for the rest of the congregation. It may be good for former protestants to remind them of their ‘services’ before converting, but that is categorically not what the Mass is about. If you like listening to such songs then do so in your own time, when it comes to Mass it is the standards of the Church which prevail and should be enforced, not some passing and sentimental fancy for the songs of your youth.

And I suppose it was the Lord that gave Luther the talent and inspiration to separate from the Church, and the Lord that divinely inspired Henry to bump off another wife? If it was the Lord that inspired Spinal Tap or whatever to write a heavy metal rendition of a song which mentioned Christ a few times would that make it suitable for Mass? And what if they are divinely inspired to have a disco ball, lasers and bubble machines, why not just let them have it because obviously since the Lord inspired them to write the songs with such things in mind they should be included in the liturgy of the Catholic Church? I seem to remember your own Bishop called some of these hymns ‘dreck’ and bemoaned the lose of Catholic liturgical music, although maybe he was “walking on thin ice” to do so, after all if it creates an emotional reaction it must be appropriate for the Mass. We don’t need to worry about “being right” as you put it, Benedictgal is stating the will of the Church as expressed in Her writings on the music suitable for liturgy. Unless of course you dispute the right of the Church to decide on such things? (And I’m speaking of the Universal Church here, not just what one Bishop might say)

So if a hymn divides us into those who come from a Protestant background and those who are cradle Catholics then obviously it isn’t appropriate for the Mass. Rather we should use the music of the Church, of which we are all members. And if we go our separate ways after Mass has ended listening to P&W or Gregorian Chant in the car then that’s fine too.

Given that the Catholic Church predates the Protestant Church by quite a considerable period it seems more likely it is a Catholic thing which has been distorted by the Protestant Church. the main difference of course is that a Catholic would normally use a different interpretation* of some very important passages. (normally known by Catholics as the correct interpretation)

**If you can show me where in the Bible it says, ‘sing whatever you like at Mass, I really don’t care’ and ‘when I said to Peter that whole bind and lose thing I was joking’ then maybe your view could be right./**QUOTE]

If you can show me in the Bible where the liturgy of the Mass is, then maybe YOUR view could be right.

The institution of the Eucharist is covered in reasonable detail, but perhaps you missed that bit in your RCIA classes. It also says in the Bible “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Now I’m really hoping that you covered that bit in RCIA, it’s a fairly important difference between Protestant churches and the Roman Catholic Church. When Peter, or one of his successors i.e. the Pope, make decisions they are to be followed. So when the Pope issues/signs off on a document which restricts the choice of music in the liturgy he is to be obeyed, because of the authority which Christ has bestowed on Peter and his successors. I hope you understand that now.

I find it interesting that yet again the substance of the post goes unanswered, but I suppose that’s par for the course with you. Perhaps you can reply to some of the more substantive points this time.

To begin with, going back to your post where you said “Which is more important, the “documents,” or “the Holy Scriptures?””, perhaps you could tell us the scriptural references you had in mind where it has the effect of saying ‘sing whatever you like at Mass, I really don’t care’ and ‘when I said to Peter that whole bind and loose thing I was joking’. Perhaps if you have the time you could also tell us where Cat classifying a piece as ‘good’ rendered it suitable for use in the Liturgy and where Cat’s opinion counts more than anyone else who might be in the congregation. After all when you claim more authority than that which Our Lord bestowed on Peter it would be nice if you backed it up with some scriptural references.

 

[EasterJoy]

For most of their stuff, I could not agree more. That is why I prefer many of the Protestant hymns, the classic ones, any way.

Actually, I know a non-Catholic, married to a Catholic, who attends Mass regularly. When they play something that is utterly unsingable–octave leaps, weird melodies, and such–he refers to it as “Protestant music”.

Considering that “Protestant” encompasses a rather large spectrum, from Anglican through Presbyterian through Southern Baptist, I don’t think there is a single piece of music ever written that would be welcome in every American Protestant church…with the possible exception of “Amazing Grace.”

EasterJoy, In my earlier posts, I pointed out that I agree that the metaphorical use of the term “bread” and of its use to indicate that Jesus’ Body is food, nourishment, bread from Heaven is not heretical and is in fact the precise way to describe the Eucharist. Say it all you want outside of Mass, during the readings, in song, whisper it, shout it! You have my blessing:thumbsup: Just don’t say, after the Consecration at Mass without descriptive adjective or phrase denoting the truth, that we eat, take, receive, break just plain bread! (As a member of the flock, I have noticed lately a little bit of wool behind my ears!)

As for singing, properly the whole Mass should be sung. You and everyone clapping for what you say and especially Cat don’t understand and refuse to understand (and such misunderstanding has been implemented by the errors of – yes – the bishops) is that the Mass is a Sacrifice. It is modeled on the sacrifices of the Old Testament and there are very strict guidelines, guidelines that have been ignored for centuries. There is song that we are entering the house of the Lord for Eucharist. There is the song of praise, the songs of the day, the songs asking forgiveness and recognizing the Lord in the breaking of the bread (before Consecretion). There is song giving thanks and song to take us on our way to tell the world. Nowhere is there room for song that makes us feel good about our roots!

chns has it just right! And the Church has the authority to interpret what is the proper manner intended by Jesus for Mass to be celebrated. Scripture is just the starting place!

"You and everyone clapping for what you say and especially Cat don’t understand and refuse to understand (and such misunderstanding has been implemented by the errors of – yes – the bishops) is that the Mass is a Sacrifice."

[Edited]

Again, please take all these complaints to those who actually have authority to define what music is appropriate for liturgy. When you’ve convinced either my pastor or my archbishop, you’ll find me a very easy sell. More to the point, you’ll find the liturgy committee at my parish an easy sell. Whether I like it or not will be besides the point, assuming that you do not accomplish the wildly unlikely feat of getting Archbishop Vlazny to go for something that pleases you but is outside the norms.

Do you see how it works? We have channels through which those without authority may respectfully approach those who do have it, when there are perceived problems. Insulting anyone else in the Church concerning how woeful our understanding of the Mass is compared to yours or how unfaithful you think we have been in the discharge of our sacred duties is entirely unnecessary, and quite frankly, way out of line.

Or keep doing it your way…you won’t change anything, but have it as you like it. I think I’ve made my point. Take it or leave it.