Music at Mass, Again

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[Edited] the Mass is the Church’s supreme Act of worship. Protestants only have the readings, a sermon and a lot of songs thrown in for good measure. The Church has both the Word and the Sacrifice. Furthermore, the Church has her standards for music. Unfortunately, there are those composers and publishing houses that have drunk too heavily from the alleged Spirit of Vatican II to even know what the documents from the Holy See have to say.
 
The institution of the Eucharist is covered in reasonable detail, but perhaps you missed that bit in your RCIA classes. It also says in the Bible “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Now I’m really hoping that you covered that bit in RCIA, it’s a fairly important difference between Protestant churches and the Roman Catholic Church. When Peter, or one of his successors i.e. the Pope, make decisions they are to be followed. So when the Pope issues/signs off on a document which restricts the choice of music in the liturgy he is to be obeyed, because of the authority which Christ has bestowed on Peter and his successors. I hope you understand that now.

I find it interesting that yet again the substance of the post goes unanswered, but I suppose that’s par for the course with you. Perhaps you can reply to some of the more substantive points this time.

To begin with, going back to your post where you said “Which is more important, the “documents,” or “the Holy Scriptures?””, perhaps you could tell us the scriptural references you had in mind where it has the effect of saying ‘sing whatever you like at Mass, I really don’t care’ and ‘when I said to Peter that whole bind and loose thing I was joking’. Perhaps if you have the time you could also tell us where Cat classifying a piece as ‘good’ rendered it suitable for use in the Liturgy and where Cat’s opinion counts more than anyone else who might be in the congregation. After all when you claim more authority than that which Our Lord bestowed on Peter it would be nice if you backed it up with some scriptural references.
When you grow up and enter the adult world for real, you will discover that people like me have to work for a living.

I was at work on a lunch break when I posted a quick answer to your post about the Bible. I don’t have time to sit down and post a detailed answer. And I don’t have any reference books with me anyway.

Your post is rude. Yes, I learned about the establishment of the Eucharist during RCIA. How dare you insult my RCIA team and the dozen priests that taught my RCIA!

But we didn’t cover the part where the Bible spells out the Liturgy, specifically the style of music. That’s because this isn’t IN the Bible. What’s in the Bible is that the CHURCH has the authority to establish the Liturgy, and the Church currently allows many of the hymns that you and your friends are trashing in this inconstructive and bitter-sounding thread.

“Par for the course for me?” Do you not comprehend how rude this sounds? You don’t know me from Adam, yet you make such a comment. Again, although I spend a lot of time (more than I should) online, I don’t have time to write volumes.

As for your question about “sing whatever you please in Mass”, I cannot quote a Scripture reference because there is NO REFERENCE to a “Mass” in the Bible. Like I said, what is in the Bible is that the Lord Jesus has given the authority on earth to the Pope, who in turn gives authority to his bishops and priests. These men have the authority to establish liturgical norms for their dioceses. I submit to THESE men.

I do not claim that my opinion counts for more than anyone else in the congregation, and I am asking that you apologize for making such an untrue and unkind accusation against me. Do you realize that you are accusing me of challenging Jesus Himself? God have mercy on me if I stand up and shake my tiny fist at Him and at His men on this earth. I have repeatedly stated in various threads all over this forum that I am willing to submit to any ruling that my bishop makes, including rulings on music styles. As of yet, my bishop, in spite of his personal opinion about various music styles, has not forbidden “contemporary” music in Masses, and as of yet, he still uses “Gather Us In” as the theme music on his weekly radio show.

I encourage you to contact my bishop directly if you have any problems with the kind of music that is done in the parishes in my diocese. He is the one in charge, not me, and it is to HIM that your complaints should be addressed.
 
and where Cat’s opinion counts more than anyone else who might be in the congregation. After all when you claim more authority than that which Our Lord bestowed on Peter it would be nice if you backed it up with some scriptural references.
This was uncalled for. Nowhere has Cat said her opinion counts for more than Peter or anywhere else. If just stating her opinuon she did that, then the same could be said for you.
 
Show me something they are publishing as a ‘mass setting’ or a ‘mass ordinary’ that is a paraphrase of the current translation
How about Marty Haugen’s “Mass of Creation”, published by GIA?
 
I recommend Scott Hahn’s The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass As Heaven On Earth. 🙂 He was once an evangelical Protestant himself and he is very good at explaining things in ways that converts from sola scriptura can understand.
Thank you for the recommendation, ibkc. I’ve read this book several times, and participated in an in-depth Bible study on the book. I’ve also heard Dr. Hahn and his wife Kimberly speak several times at various Catholic conferences on this topic, and my husband and I have the CDs of this topic by Dr. Hahn and have listened to them as we travel to figure skating competitions.

I agree, the book describes well where in the Bible the Mass is found.

But nowhere in the Bible can a specific “order of liturgy” be found, other than in a most general sense.

Questions like “Where in the Mass should the Sign of Peace happen” and “Should Holy Communion be received in the hand or on the tongue?” and especially “What style of music and what musical instruments, if any, does God want to hear at Mass?” are simply NOT in the Bible.

It doesn’t matter anyway. As I have said, what IS in the Bible is a very clear “Chain of Command” when it comes to how the Church functions. The Pope is in charge, along with his bishops, and the priests. This can be found in the Gospels (including the Gospel reading that we just studied this Sunday), and in the Acts, and in several pastoral epistles.

Ultimately the bishop and priests are responsible for the implementation of the liturgy in the Mass, but for practical reasons, most priests approve of various lay people, both amateurs and professionals, to do some of this work. The priests have this authority to delegate work in the Church.

Because of this “chain of command,” it is correct to say that the liturgical music used for Mass at any parish is done with the approval of the priests.

Certainly as finite and imperfect human beings, the priests and their delegated workers can and do make selections that are not in line with the various Church documents. It is certainly acceptable for a lay person to approach the priests and workers and point out any errors in a charitable and humble way.

Of course, it is possible that the lay person is incorrect regarding the various Church documents. The priest has had many years of schooling and should, in theory, know more than the layperson. I admit without shame that the priests and the Catholic layworkers in my diocese know a whole lot more than I do

But not always. If there’s one thing that I’ve learned from these forums, it’s that many priests and most lay liturgical directors know very little about liturgical music and need the guidance of well-informed lay-people who have made an intensive study of the various Church documents.

Ideally, these well-informed lay-people should be the appointed Liturgical Director in their parishes, and I get the impression that several of them on CAF are indeed, fulfilling that responsibility. Their parishes are lucky to have such well-informed and enthusiastic people.

In our diocese, apparently the well-informed lay-people who are in charge of liturgy at the various parishes have not made as intensive a study as many of you have made, as they continue to use music that many of you claim is “inferior” or “innappropriate” or “irreverent” of\r “has non-Catholic theology” or is “horizontal rather than vertical.”

I’m not exactly sure what to do about this.

I could become contentious and disatisfied, as so many of you seem to be.

But forgive me, everyone, I would prefer to blindly submit to the authority that God has ordained for my diocese. If the music is really bad here, well, it doesn’t seem to be hurting us much. We have a surplus of vocations, and quite a few of those have come out of the Life Teen Mass that so many of you disparage. And considering how many strong evangelical megachurches and churches we have in our area, the Catholic Church continues to win converts here.

I’m happy with what we have. If it changes to something else, I will be happy with that. If chant and other classical music is implemented exclusively in the Church, and the pipe organ is the only instrument allowed, I will enjoy having my Saturday evenings and Sunday mornings free, and I will enjoy attending just one Mass and sitting back in the pew and participating (or sitting silently and praying if it is a TLM). I will enjoy being Catholic no matter what. I refuse to complain.
 
The institution of the Eucharist is covered in reasonable detail, but perhaps you missed that bit in your RCIA classes. It also says in the Bible “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Now I’m really hoping that you covered that bit in RCIA, it’s a fairly important difference between Protestant churches and the Roman Catholic Church. When Peter, or one of his successors i.e. the Pope, make decisions they are to be followed. So when the Pope issues/signs off on a document which restricts the choice of music in the liturgy he is to be obeyed, because of the authority which Christ has bestowed on Peter and his successors. I hope you understand that now.

**I find it interesting that yet again the substance of the post goes unanswered, but I suppose that’s par for the course with you. Perhaps you can reply to some of the more substantive points this time. **

To begin with, going back to your post where you said “Which is more important, the “documents,” or “the Holy Scriptures?””, perhaps you could tell us the scriptural references you had in mind where it has the effect of saying ‘sing whatever you like at Mass, I really don’t care’ and ‘when I said to Peter that whole bind and loose thing I was joking’. Perhaps if you have the time you could also tell us where Cat classifying a piece as ‘good’ rendered it suitable for use in the Liturgy and where Cat’s opinion counts more than anyone else who might be in the congregation. After all when you claim more authority than that which Our Lord bestowed on Peter it would be nice if you backed it up with some scriptural references.
I’m not quite sure why my post responding to this was deleted by the Moderators, so I am going to reply again. I do hope the Moderators will allow this post to stand. I really don’t appreciate being made fun of by a teenager.

snhs, I was at work on break when I responded to you with a short response/question. I don’t have time to respond in detail while I am at work. That’s not what they pay me for.

And I find the phrase “par for the course with you” extremely hurtful. I’m a 51 year-old woman. Would you talk to your mother like you talk to me? I certainly hope not. It’s a pretty sharp jab and not true at all. I always try to answer questions on this forum if I can, even though I don’t know as much as many do.

I have never made a claim that Cat’s opinion counts for more than other members of the congregation. On the contrary, I am one of the people on this forum urging people, including myself, to submit to the authority of the clergy when it comes to liturgy and to be docile when it comes to liturgy that they find “inferior.”
 
Actually, if you were to carefully read Exodus, Deuteronomy and Leviticus, the Lord gave Moses very detailed instructions on just how He should be worshipped. The Lord covered everything, from the composition of the altar to the color of the vestments for the priests and the gold vessels and their particular use. He was also very specific about the Passover and the other sacrifices.

In fact, He was also adamant about adherence to the norms that He prescribed. Remember. Aaron’s sons and Dathan didn’t adhere to the norms and they got burned, literally. Cardinal Arinze makes note of that in one of his addresses:
  1. Holy Scripture Stresses the Observance of Norms
In the Old Testament severe punishment was meted out to those to whom the conduct of worship had been entrusted but who ignored the detailed norms for such worship which God gave the chosen people through Moses. The two sons of Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, offered unlawful fire and were burnt to death in the sanctuary even in their vestments (cf. Lev 10:1-3; Num 3:4). Korah, Dathan and Abiram rebelled against Moses and Aaron and the ground opened and swallowed them and all their families (cf. Num 16:1-35). And Uzzah touched the Ark to adjust it into its proper position and was struck dead on the spot (cf. II Sam 6:6-7).
No doubt, God is more merciful in the New Testament. But we should not for that reason tempt His patience. Saint Paul castigated those who introduced abuses into the dignified celebration of the Eucharist at gatherings of the Christian community, such as factions, drunkenness and unwillingness of the rich to share with the poor (cf. II Cor 11:17-34).
Furthermore, going back to the subject of music, Pope Benedict often notes the importance of appropriate music for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Here is what he said over the weekend, when his older brother, the renowned, retired choirmaster for Regensberg Cathedral, was given honorary citizenship in Castel Gandolfo:
“The good music of the cathedral, Sunday after Sunday, was a support, a consolation, a profound joy for me and a reflection of God’s beauty,” the Holy Father said.
Incidentally, the Holy Father’s brother, Msgr. Georg Ratzinger, often used settings by Bach and Mendelsohn.
 
Actually, if you were to carefully read Exodus, Deuteronomy and Leviticus, the Lord gave Moses very detailed instructions on just how He should be worshipped. The Lord covered everything, from the composition of the altar to the color of the vestments for the priests and the gold vessels and their particular use. He was also very specific about the Passover and the other sacrifices.

In fact, He was also adamant about adherence to the norms that He prescribed. Remember. Aaron’s sons and Dathan didn’t adhere to the norms and they got burned, literally. Cardinal Arinze makes note of that in one of his addresses:

Furthermore, going back to the subject of music, Pope Benedict often notes the importance of appropriate music for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Here is what he said over the weekend, when his older brother, the renowned, retired choirmaster for Regensberg Cathedral, was given honorary citizenship in Castel Gandolfo:

Incidentally, the Holy Father’s brother, Msgr. Georg Ratzinger, often used settings by Bach and Mendelsohn.
Yes, I am aware that the Old Testament is very specific on the details of the worship of the Israelites. In fact, this is one of the reasons that I had an easy time accepting a liturgical style of worship as opposed to what I was raised with in the evangelical Protestant churches, which is basically completely non-liturgical, with a different “order of service” for every service from week to week to avoid “monotony.”

I KNEW that the Bible taught that God considered “order of worship” was important. I was upset with my evangelical Protestant churches for becoming more and more “random” in their organization of worship service. We literally never knew what to expect from week to week.

At the moment, there is a small group of evangelical Protestants advocating a return to a more liturgical style of worship services. But they are a small group, indeed, and they are being hushed by the radio preachers who accuse them of pushing people down the “road to Rome.”

So I have no disagreement with you or any Catholic on the important of Liturgy. I think it is a great weakness of Protestant churches, especially the evangelical Protestant churches, that they have abandoned any liturgy and in fact, criticize liturgy as a “work of man.”

But benedictgal, are you saying that the liturgy described in the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy IS the SAME liturgy that the Mass should have?

I don’t think you’re saying that. I hope not, because I do disagree with that. The worship in the Old Testament was Jewish worship, and we are not Jews.

I honestly don’t think we can find any passage of Sacred Scripture that outlines in detail a “Catholic Mass.”

I’ve read all the Deuteronocanonicals, and I don’t think that there is a “Liturgy of Catholic Mass” in any of them, although since I am not as familiar with them as I am with the Protestant canon of Scripture, perhaps I have forgotten about an entire passage. Have I?

But even though we don’t find an “Order of Liturgy of the Catholic Mass” in Sacred Scripture, what we do find is the Jesus Christ designating authority to the Church. The Church is where we will receive the correct liturgy for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

We also find many principles in the Bible, both Old and New Testament, that I think might apply to Mass. For example, Jesus makes it clear that he is less concerned with appearance and more concerned with the intent of the heart. In his “Woes” to the Pharisees, Jesus talks about the religious “talk” that doesn’t match the actual walk.

Often, Jesus denounces those who follow every jot of the Law, but neglect to show love to their fellow man. Also, many passages of Scripture make it clear that it doesn’t matter how much we know, but rather, what’s most important is how much we demonstrate love.

And I think one of the most powerful verses in the Old Testament is “For thou doest not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; Thou art not pleased with burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise.” (Psalm 51).

What this tells me is that even if I do something “incorrect” in the Sacrifice of the Mass, it is not nearly so important to God as my contrition and brokenness over my sin.

To me, these are general principles, teachings from the Lord, that help me to keep things in perspective. This is probably why I appear “mushy” to some of the more conservative Catholics on these Liturgical threads. It seems to me that the actual song is not nearly as important (as long as it is not devilish) as is the heart and intent of the person singing or playing the song.

What this means to me is that one person will sing joyfully and with gusto a “questionable” song (e.g., Amazing Grace), and the Lord will be pleased by the heart full of praise. At the same time, another person will bow their head and remain silent during the “questionable” song and God will also be pleased by their heart longing for truth.

I’m NOT saying that liturgy is out the window! PLEASE don’t accuse me of saying that. I think that one of the best things that the Catholic Church could do is try to tie up all these loose ends, answer all the questions (e.g., is Communion on the hand really OK?), issue some unmistakeable guidelines for music, forbid certain practices that have offended Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and lessened the impact of the Gospel. I would LOVE to see everything in God’s House in perfect order.

But I also accept that this work will not be done quickly, especially with so many other pressing issues. So while the work of perfecting the liturgy of the Mass is in progress, I will joyfully accept the Mass that I am privileged to participate in.

The Scripture says that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. I think that this saying could apply to the Mass–the Sacrifice of Our Lord is the same yesterday, today, and forever. The Sacrifice is not negated by the singing of “Gather Us In” instead of Palestrina. It is the Same Sacrifice.
 
Actually, if you were to carefully read Exodus, Deuteronomy and Leviticus, the Lord gave Moses very detailed instructions on just how He should be worshipped. The Lord covered everything, from the composition of the altar to the color of the vestments for the priests and the gold vessels and their particular use. He was also very specific about the Passover and the other sacrifices.

In fact, He was also adamant about adherence to the norms that He prescribed. Remember. Aaron’s sons and Dathan didn’t adhere to the norms and they got burned, literally. Cardinal Arinze makes note of that in one of his addresses:

Furthermore, going back to the subject of music, Pope Benedict often notes the importance of appropriate music for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Here is what he said over the weekend, when his older brother, the renowned, retired choirmaster for Regensberg Cathedral, was given honorary citizenship in Castel Gandolfo:

Incidentally, the Holy Father’s brother, Msgr. Georg Ratzinger, often used settings by Bach and Mendelsohn.
I’m not trying to be a smart-aleck. This is an honest question.

Why is it OK to use music in Mass by Bach (Lutheran) and Mendelssohn (Jewish), but not music by Marty Haugen (Lutheran) and Twila Paris (evangelical/charismatic Protestant)?

This, to me, seems hypocritical.
 
If I recall correctly, Felix Mendelssohn’s father converted the family to Lutheranism.

Somebody correct me if I’m wrong.

But in answer to your question, Cat, it’s because the music produced by Bach and Mendelssohn is astronomically superior to the music produced by both Haugen and Twila Paris. 🙂 Bach died in 1750, Mendelssohn in 1847, and their music is still heard around the world.

100 years from now, mention Twila Paris or Marty Haugen, and people will say, “Who?”
 
If I recall correctly, Felix Mendelssohn’s father converted the family to Lutheranism.

Somebody correct me if I’m wrong.

But in answer to your question, Cat, it’s because the music produced by Bach and Mendelssohn is astronomically superior to the music produced by both Haugen and Twila Paris. 🙂 Bach died in 1750, Mendelssohn in 1847, and their music is still heard around the world.

100 years from now, mention Twila Paris or Marty Haugen, and people will say, “Who?”
To put a finer point on it: music used at Mass should be a) theologically correct and b) artistically superior. Both - not one or the other. Haugen fails on both counts for being artistically ordinary and for taking liberties with the wording. I am not familiar with the other person referenced.
 
To put a finer point on it: music used at Mass should be a) theologically correct and b) artistically superior. Both - not one or the other. Haugen fails on both counts …
I know that it is popular to slam on Haugen here, but this line of thinking lacks agreement in subject. By this I mean that you describe what you believe should be the criteria for music and then a apply this to Haugen, who is a person, not music. So if one wished to apply anything to his music, it would need to be done a piece at the time, unless one believes prejudice is also a good criteria to use.

I guess I one of the few here that like a couple of his songs, at least here. In my parish, as in many others, he has a few songs that are well received bu most Catholics. Therefore, the somewhat subjective criteria of artistically superior is not valid. If the same piece is not theologically incorrect, then there should be no objection.
 
I know that it is popular to slam on Haugen here, but this line of thinking lacks agreement in subject. By this I mean that you describe what you believe should be the criteria for music and then a apply this to Haugen, who is a person, not music. So if one wished to apply anything to his music, it would need to be done a piece at the time, unless one believes prejudice is also a good criteria to use.

I guess I one of the few here that like a couple of his songs, at least here. In my parish, as in many others, he has a few songs that are well received bu most Catholics. Therefore, the somewhat subjective criteria of artistically superior is not valid. If the same piece is not theologically incorrect, then there should be no objection.
Well, I am speaking specifically of his “Mass of Creation” setting rather than his hymns, which I agree should be taken on a case-by-case basis. The Mass setting is problematic, IMO. It’s basically early 80’s pop music, and he takes liberties with the wording, as I noted.

I am not saying that Marty Haugen isn’t a talented songwriter. He is a very talented pop/folk songwriter! But he’s not a composer of high level music and he doesn’t understand the Catholic liturgy and its requirements.
 
I am not saying that Marty Haugen isn’t a talented songwriter. He is a very talented pop/folk songwriter! But he’s not a composer of high level music and he doesn’t understand the Catholic liturgy and its requirements.
I think the problem also has roots in the profit motive for GIA and OCP. They have to pay royalties for each song they add in a hymnal, unless they have a song written by a staffer like Haugen. It is cheaper to have him grind out song after song. So, like many artist, he may have a moment or two of brilliance and then live off that in a career of mediocrity.
 
Someone asked why “Gather Us In” is problematic. Let’s look at the lyrics (by the way, the tune sounds like the Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald):
We are the young, our lives are a mystery.
We are the old who yearn for your face.
We have been sung throughout all of history
Called to be light to the whole human race.
Gather us in the rich and the haugty,
Gather us in the proud and the lame.
Give us a heart so meek and so lowly
Give us the courage to enter the song.
This part of the song boils down to celebrating the community, making us the focal point of the whole thing. That is bad liturgical theology.
Not in the dark of buildings confining,
Not in some heaven light years away,
But here in this place the new light is shining
Now is the Kingdom, now is the day.
Gather us in and hold us forever,
Gather us in and make us your own.
Gather us in your peoples together
Fire of love in our flesh and our bone.
“Not in some heaven light years away” is a poor line. Haugen doesn’t seem to understand the Church’s concept of heaven, nor of liturgy, for that matter.

As I noted in my parenthetical comments, the melody is reminscent of Gordon Lightfoot’s “Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald.” Of course, it is analogous as this song is one shipwreck that needs to plunge back into the depths from which it emerged.
 
Cat, I had to delete your post in order to answer the first part of your post. I ask you to compare the Mass side by side with the Sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel. The Church is the New Israel. Were the people from Moses’ time to walk into a Catholic Church today, they would recognize many of their sacrificial forms of worship.

First of all, the law and the prophets were read. Then, a psalm was chanted. Afterwards, the priest would immolate the victim on the altar. He would offer the victim to God and use incense so that the aroma would be pleasing to the Lord. The sacrifice was not completed until the priest consumed the portion of the victim allotted to him. In some instances, the faithful partook of the communion sacrifice.

Does this sound familiar? Jesus’ perfect sacrifice was the fultillment of the Old Covenant and the Establishment of the New.

The formal worship of Ancient Israel included the chanting of the psalms. At the Last Supper, Jesus led the Apostles in the chanting of the prayers of ancient Israel as they left the Upper Room to enter the Garden of Gethsemane.

The ancient hymns of the Church capture the sublime mysteries. A song like Pange Lingua, by St. Thomas Aquinas, carries more theological weight than anything written by the SLJ, Marty Haugen, David Haas and Bob Hurd.
SING, my tongue, the Savior’s glory,
of His flesh the mystery sing;
of the Blood, all price exceeding,
shed by our immortal King,
destined, for the world’s redemption,
from a noble womb to spring.
Of a pure and spotless Virgin
born for us on earth below,
He, as Man, with man conversing,
stayed, the seeds of truth to sow;
then He closed in solemn order
wondrously His life of woe.
On the night of that Last Supper,
seated with His chosen band,
He the Pascal victim eating,
first fulfills the Law’s command;
then as Food to His Apostles
gives Himself with His own hand.
Word-made-Flesh, the bread of nature
by His word to Flesh He turns;
wine into His Blood He changes;-
what though sense no change discerns?
Only be the heart in earnest,
faith her lesson quickly learns.
There is a lot of theolgy in this song that is central to our Faith. It is the song par excellence of the Eucharist. That is why the Church uses this during Benediction and during Holy Thursday. Compare that with something like Come to the Banquet/Ven al Banquete by Bob Hurd.

Furthermore, before any of us can love our neighbor, we have to love God first and foremost. This is the preeminent commandment, Cat. If we get this wrong, forget about the rest. Loving God means offering him the finest worship possible using the finest music, the finest vestments and the finest sacred vessels.
 
Yeah, reading Church documents to guide what should happen in the liturgy is such a horrible thing to do isn’t it? After all why should we bother listening to the Vatican when we have a perfectly good lay person up there strumming on a guitar every Sunday. :rolleyes:

The Vatican is one of the few places which knows what it’s doing liturgy wise, you only need to look at the example of the Holy Father and his Papal MC to see that. What is needed is for the rest of the Church to follow where Peter leads.

We already know that certain hymnals were wrong in using songs with Yaweh in them, we already know that Pope John Paul II had actually criticised the practice in a document previously. I wonder how many other errors exist in the same hymnals and hymns which many Parishes use week in week out?

Benedictgal is stating the will of the Church as expressed in Her writings on the music suitable for liturgy. Unless of course you dispute the right of the Church to decide on such things? (And I’m speaking of the Universal Church here, not just what one Bishop might say)
And I just don’t get why people are complaining that Benedictgal is backing up what she says by providing the documents? 🤷
 
I’m not trying to be a smart-aleck. This is an honest question.

Why is it OK to use music in Mass by Bach (Lutheran) and Mendelssohn (Jewish), but not music by Marty Haugen (Lutheran) and Twila Paris (evangelical/charismatic Protestant)?

This, to me, seems hypocritical.
Cat, you can’t seriously think they are choosing according to the religion of the writers rather than the quality of their music???
 
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