Music at mass

[brotherhrolf]

I will bite this carrot.

As a parish musician, the moment I most dread is someone marching up to me after Mass because I had secretly offended them with the song selection. Fortunately, this does not happen often.

Everyone needs to understand that most of the time, with the exception of the larger cathedrals and congregations with money, your local parish musician is often a volunteer with limited resources. Please use all your catholic christian charity when dealing/talking with your local parish musician.

Hmm…I’ll bite this carrot, too. OK, mine is a smaller cathedral. Music director/organist is paid as are four section leaders (a very modest stipend). They are 20% of my total choir. I can name you five other parishes nearby who have accomplished musicdirectors /organists/pianists/keyboardists and no section leaders. All the rest of the choir members are, like myself, volunteers from the parish.

The key is that we are willing to work - as in three hours of practice a week. No contemporary praise music. No OCP. And surprise, surprise, many of our teens in high school join the choir until they go off to college. Limited resources or might I sugggest the type of music selected? If a choir is not challenged, how can it be expected to grow? If they are fed a steady diet of contemporary praise music and OCP, how do you know they can’t sing Ave Verum Corpus (the chant) or Ave Verum Corpus (Mozart)?

My local geographic parish has an Adoration chapel. They do not have a choir, they have a band. The music that they play is no different from the mega-non-denominational church a few blocks away or the Southern Baptist church down the street. We have 1500 years of musical tradition as Catholics.

I’ll grant you, for most parishes, this musical tradition got thrown on the scrap heap in 1969. But, I’ll be honest with you. Some of the music cited as vertical contemporary praise music I can hear advertised on TV…K-Tel presents! I find it profoundly sad that we ignore our own traditions in favor of whatever K-Tel marketing deems is the new best seller. “Shine, Jesus, Shine” is not Ave Verum Corpus.

One other point. I have numerous CDs of secular and sacred music from the late Renaissance/early Baroque. The poster is absolutely correct that some of the sacred music that has survived from this period was contemporary and is now traditional. But it most certainly was NOT the music of the people however contemporary it was then. I’m sure VociMike and benedictgal can back me up on this. And there are composers who are writing contemporary sacred music who are not relying upon the idioms of secular culture. We are not evangelical charismatic protestants. We are Catholics and we need to remember our heritage.

 

[japhy]

One other point. I have numerous CDs of secular and sacred music from the late Renaissance/early Baroque. The poster is absolutely correct that some of the sacred music that has survived from this period was contemporary and is now traditional. But it most certainly was NOT the music of the people however contemporary it was then.

Exactly. Here’s a piece of contemporary (modern, even!) sacred polyphony: Crucem tuam (adoramus Domine) (“We adore Thy Cross, O Lord”). It was composed just this year by Aristotle Aure Esguerra, for Good Friday (during the Veneration of the Cross).

It’s contemporary, but it’s not the music of the people. It’s strictly liturgical music.

 

[benedictgal]

Exactly. Here’s a piece of contemporary (modern, even!) sacred polyphony: Crucem tuam (adoramus Domine) (“We adore Thy Cross, O Lord”). It was composed just this year by Aristotle Aure Esguerra, for Good Friday (during the Veneration of the Cross).

It’s contemporary, but it’s not the music of the people. It’s strictly liturgical music.

That’s the main kernel to this whole thing, japhy. Both you and brotherhrolf have hit the proverbial nail on the head. Unfortunately, there are comoposers (Bob Hurd, Marty Haugen, David Haas, et al) and publishing houses that can’t (or won’t) tel the difference.

 

[cathochic]

Hmm…I’ll bite this carrot, too. OK, mine is a smaller cathedral. Music director/organist is paid as are four section leaders (a very modest stipend). They are 20% of my total choir. I can name you five other parishes nearby who have accomplished musicdirectors /organists/pianists/keyboardists and no section leaders. All the rest of the choir members are, like myself, volunteers from the parish…

Limited resources - meaning financial. I live in one of the poorer communities and in a country parish. You are very blessed to have the financial and human resources.

The key is that we are willing to work - as in three hours of practice a week. No contemporary praise music. No OCP. And surprise, surprise, many of our teens in high school join the choir until they go off to college. Limited resources or might I sugggest the type of music selected? If a choir is not challenged, how can it be expected to grow? If they are fed a steady diet of contemporary praise music and OCP, how do you know they can’t sing Ave Verum Corpus (the chant) or Ave Verum Corpus (Mozart)?.

I also agree, that no matter what “genre” of music you play, ample practice time and hard work is key. There is also tremendous preparation time before the music even comes to choir/group.

We are the McDonald’s generation after all, everyone wants to be served, yet so few want to serve.

My local geographic parish has an Adoration chapel. They do not have a choir, they have a band. The music that they play is no different from the mega-non-denominational church a few blocks away or the Southern Baptist church down the street. We have 1500 years of musical tradition as Catholics. .

I’ll grant you, for most parishes, this musical tradition got thrown on the scrap heap in 1969. But, I’ll be honest with you. Some of the music cited as vertical contemporary praise music I can hear advertised on TV…K-Tel presents! I find it profoundly sad that we ignore our own traditions in favor of whatever K-Tel marketing deems is the new best seller. “Shine, Jesus, Shine” is not Ave Verum Corpus…

I totally agree. Both “Table of Plenty” and “Shine Jesus Shine” are equally horrid! Plowing through countless selections to find the right ones is a daunting task. Then the next task, if a song is more “contemporary,” is to completely rework the arrangement to make it suitable. Heavy guitars and drums do not belong at Mass at all.

One other point. I have numerous CDs of secular and sacred music from the late Renaissance/early Baroque. The poster is absolutely correct that some of the sacred music that has survived from this period was contemporary and is now traditional. But it most certainly was NOT the music of the people however contemporary it was then. I’m sure VociMike and benedictgal can back me up on this. And there are composers who are writing contemporary sacred music who are not relying upon the idioms of secular culture. We are not evangelical charismatic protestants. We are Catholics and we need to remember our heritage…

Yes, I agree that we do need to remember our Heritage - but also remember not to cling to traditions without understanding the spiritual reason for it - simply wanting everything “the old way”.

In a lot of ways, our viewpoints point to the same conclusion. Sacred music is just that - sacred. It is not only sacred in the text or selection, but it should be sacred in the arrangement, singing and playing. That is why I disagree with the poster calling music a “scism”. It’s not really.

Also, worship music is also contraversial among our separated believers, even more so than among Catholics. I have only learned of this recently - I was a bit surprised. They wresle with this - because they have less teaching with no Magisterium to guide them.

There is a contempoary christian song called “Heart of Worship”. It was written by Matt Redman when he was getting upset about the worship music becoming more of a show and a business rather than a prayer. While this is not a song for liturgy, it is a great song to listen to while preparing to play.

When the music fades
And all is stripped away
And I simply come
Longing just to bring
Something that’s of worth
That will bless Your heart

I’ll bring You more than a song
For a song in itself
Is not what You have required
You search much deeper within
Through the ways things appear
You’re looking into my heart

I’m coming back to the heart of worship
And it’s all about You
All about You, Jesus
I’m sorry Lord for the thing I’ve made it
When it’s all about You
It’s all about You Jesus

King of endless worth
No one could express
How much You deserve
Though I’m weak and poor
All I have is Yours
Every single breath

 

[Monkey1976]

If Tra le Sollecitudini is still in force, then why am I stuck on a too-small platform up front facing the congregation with a baby grand piano at my back?

The problem, as I see it, is that certain people tend to see Vatican II as blotting out everything between St. Peter and Paul VI.

When I’ve brought up the fact that the Church’s preferred option for music is chanted propers (or at least a chanted Ordinary), I’m told that we can’t do that because the people won’t understand the latin, and can’t sing along.

Doesn’t that kind of response imply that the Church was doing things wrong for over a thousand years when it comes to sacred music?

 

[japhy]

If Tra le Sollecitudini is still in force, then why am I stuck on a too-small platform up front facing the congregation with a baby grand piano at my back?

Because TLS isn’t still in force; the latest music decree from the Church was 1967’s Musicam Sacram; in accord with Vatican II’s Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, it loosens restrictions on instruments used during Mass (cf. nn. 62-67). However, Pope John Paul II praised the document and re-affirmed its classification of Gregorian chant as the supreme model of sacred music and its placement of polyphony second to Gregorian chant.

The problem, as I see it, is that certain people tend to see Vatican II as blotting out everything between St. Peter and Paul VI.

That’s pretty accurate… it’s weird that people get uppity about “traditionalist Catholics” wanting to go back to worship as it was 50 years ago, whereas those uppity people try to go back to worship as it was (or rather: as they perceived it to be) 1900 years ago!

When I’ve brought up the fact that the Church’s preferred option for music is chanted propers (or at least a chanted Ordinary), I’m told that we can’t do that because the people won’t understand the latin, and can’t sing along. Doesn’t that kind of response imply that the Church was doing things wrong for over a thousand years when it comes to sacred music?

But… but… Pope Paul VI gave us Jubilate Deo in 1974! He wanted parishes to chant the Ordinary in Latin! Leave the propers for the choir, give the ordinary to the people! In Latin!

 

[Zarathustra89]

2 Kings 6:6: “Where did it fall?” asked the man of God. When he pointed out the spot, Elisha cut off a stick, threw it into the water, and brought the iron to the surface.

Is that the quote you meant to use? I was just wondering how that related to music in the Mass.

I must I have cited the wrong the passage. The passage I meant to cite talked about how a man was struck down for touching the ark as it was beginning to tip over. The ark was being pulled by ox as opposed to the tradition of the ark being carried by the Levite priests this the reason why he was struck down.

The point of the passage is that God DOES care very much about tradition and that we should not discard it.

 

[brotherhrolf]

When I’ve brought up the fact that the Church’s preferred option for music is chanted propers (or at least a chanted Ordinary), I’m told that we can’t do that because the people won’t understand the latin, and can’t sing along.

There’s that old shibboleth once again. “…the people won’t understand the latin, and can’t sing along.” Tell that to my mother (God rest her soul) and my neighbors and me. Naw, I had no idea what “Jesu Dulcis Memoria” meant.

Here’s another remedy - the 1940 Episcopalian Hymnal. When we got a new rector at my cathedral in 1984 he forbade any singing in Latin. Most of the major chants, Latin hymns, and sequences for the entire liturgical year can be found translated into English in that hymnal. Christians to the Paschal Victim is just not the same on Easter Sunday morning as Victimae Paschali Laudes or I Saw Water instead of the Vidi Aquam. That 10 year period was like taking a shower with a rain coat on. Now, this is not to say that there aren’t some simply splendid sacred motets and anthems by English composers…not saying that at all. But if you grew up singing and understanding Pange Lingua then Sing My Tongue the Savior’s Glory sounds downright awkward.

Finances should not play that big a part. If you can buy contemporary sheet music and stuff from OCP, surely the copyrights from the 1940 Episcopalian Hymnal and the St. Gregory’s Hymnal have expired. How much does it cost to Xerox? Heck, our local Episcopalian brethren two blocks away from us donated their copies of their 1940 hymnals to us when they replaced theirs. Have you checked the attic or basement of your church to see if there are copies of the St. Gregory stashed about?

There are sources other than contemporary praise and OCP. Ever tried Taize? And surprise, the congregation does sing.

Human resources? I’ll bet if you attempted a traditional work, you might find a whole bunch of us old fogies lurking about who’ld jump at the chance to sing - even in a rural parish. My entire musical training consists of playing trumpet from 7th to 10th grade and from singing in the choir in 9th through 11th grade…when? In the mid 1960s! Know how many of us volunteers have degrees in music? Zero. Nada. Zilch. Just a thought for you to consider Cathochic. We are anthropologists, accountants, housewives, librarians, teachers, state government workers.

Bear this in mind too. I am a Cajun in ancestry. There are many, many parishes here in rural south Louisiana which have massive amounts of talent that can and do play Cajun music. I am not aware of any parish bringing the music of the dance hall into church on Sunday morning. There is no Missa Two Step or Missa Chank-a-Chank. They may sing sacred motets in French - heck, my cathedral choir sings in French (and no, shock :bigyikes: Bro is French [got the surname to prove it] but I took Spanish in high school ). What I am trying to say is that if you adopt a defeatist attitude and expect only the minimum from your choir, you’re not going to go far. Challenge them! I believe they will rise to the occassion.

 

[ontologysue]

The Church has set a standard, based on centuries of tradition. This standard of chant and polyphonic includes the whole catholic church including the eastern orthodox.

She has chosen the most magnificent music ever composed, which has proven itself through the long test of time.

Who are we to “opt out” of the greater wisdom of mother church? Oh, yes, I’m sure the tidy modern melodies of contemporary Christian songs will stand the test of centuries!

All of you Roman Catholics out there, whose rock of faith is supposed to include the “Tradition” of wisdom on whose shoulders you stand…why do you think it makes any sense at all to introduce these contemporary little ditties into the ancient, timeless Divine Liturgy? You are totally contradicting the Church.

The Orthodox, who have used ancient chant in their Liturgy from the first century, wouldn’t begin to think they could just “up and change” now, to modernize or appeal to the more “banal” tastes of our transient modern culture! It’s rediculous and devoid of humility before the great Tradition which is our legacy and which we are bound to preserve.

 

[VociMike]

Who are we to “opt out” of the greater wisdom of mother church? Oh, yes, I’m sure the tidy modern melodies of contemporary Christian songs will stand the test of centuries!

I once started a thread asking which contemporary Christian songs would be sung and held in high esteem 500 years from now. The forthcoming list was underwhelming. In fact, as I remember, only a few pieces written in a style clearly deriving from chant and older polyphony were put forth as candidates. Not a St. Louis Jesuit song or P&W song on the list.

It’s worth asking again. If somebody is pushing music that won’t stand the test of time over music that has and will, what is the justification for that? If somebody is pushing music that is a break from those who came before us in faith over music that flows from those who came before us in faith, what is the justification for that? What is the justification for using music that does not connect us to the past and will not connect us to the future? That is the very definition of throw-away music, and why would we want to use throw-away music to praise our eternal God?

 

[SacredHeartFan]

Many of your arguments have swayed my opinion. I have come to my final conclusion. The musician should play whatever he/she feels most comfortable playing and a piece that he/she feels that coming from them it gives God praise.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Many of your arguments have swayed my opinion. I have come to my final conclusion. The musician should play whatever he/she feels most comfortable playing and a piece that he/she feels that coming from them it gives God praise.

Oh, gee, my young friend…so, if I was a member of a Cajun band that played at Fred’s on the Amite River on Saturday night and I decided that, yep, I have this really peachy-keen two-step for which I have written p & w words, that it would be OK?

You are as aware as I of that parish on Hwy 73 to your north. Why do you think DW and I left it in 1983? Want me to show you a copy of the really, really, really nasty letter I got from a certain Irish priest who stated that if I died he would not respond? All because I had to ask him back then to move to the cathedral?

And how about that parish off of Sherwood Forest where they have an Irish band with uillean pipes, tin whistle, and bodhran? Bro. really likes Irish music but the music of the pub is not the music of HMC. As much as I like Celtic music, I know doggone good and well that it was not sung in church. My great grandmother was instrumental in getting St. Alphonsus up and running in the Irish Channel in New Orleans - you know, Blessed Fr. Seelos?

SHF, you and I have talked. How much do you know about your heritage? You can’t just make these blanket statements that anything goes as long as your intent is to praise the Lord. :bigyikes:

Sit back and think about that…could a stripper band on Bourbon St. change their stripes and offer p & w?

 

[SacredHeartFan]

Oh, gee, my young friend…so, if I was a member of a Cajun band that played at Fred’s on the Amite River on Saturday night and I decided that, yep, I have this really peachy-keen two-step for which I have written p & w words, that it would be OK?

You are as aware as I of that parish on Hwy 73 to your north. Why do you think DW and I left it in 1983? Want me to show you a copy of the really, really, really nasty letter I got from a certain Irish priest who stated that if I died he would not respond? All because I had to ask him back then to move to the cathedral?

And how about that parish off of Sherwood Forest where they have an Irish band with uillean pipes, tin whistle, and bodhran? Bro. really likes Irish music but the music of the pub is not the music of HMC. As much as I like Celtic music, I know doggone good and well that it was not sung in church. My great grandmother was instrumental in getting St. Alphonsus up and running in the Irish Channel in New Orleans - you know, Blessed Fr. Seelos?

SHF, you and I have talked. How much do you know about your heritage? You can’t just make these blanket statements that anything goes as long as your intent is to praise the Lord. :bigyikes:

Sit back and think about that…could a stripper band on Bourbon St. change their stripes and offer p & w?

The old Irish priest at St. John died. And yes for the stripper band, everyone could change. I’m not saying they need to go strip in Church because that is not reverant. But they can play their style of music if it has theologically correct lyrics.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

SHF, you and I have talked. How much do you know about your heritage?

I know more than you most likely about our heritage. I am pround of my family’s cajun beginings when they setteled along Bayou Teche in St. Martinville where the oak of Evangiline stands. I am pround of my great grandfathers choice to move to Geismer to find work at the evolving plants along the mighty Mississippi. I am proud of the hard work he put into helping build the old St. John before it burned down. On my father’s side I am pround of my great-great-grandfather who moved to Thibodeaux as an immigrant from Germany. And how he had his children educated at the best Catholic school in the state, E.D. White (formally Mt. Carmel High and Thibodeaux Collage) and how they all had their education at Nicholls State University. I am proud of my grandfathers decision to move to Gonzales while it was devolping so he could open up his physical therapy office and help more than half of the citizens. I am pround that wherever I go I am know as Russell’s grandson or Barney’s grandson. I am 50% Graham 50% Arceneaux and 100% Coonass. Don’t even suggest I don’t know about my herritage. PM me if you want to know more.

 

[brotherhrolf]

No, the not so old Irish priest at that parish did not die. He got hauled in and removed after I presented his letter to me to the appropriate authorities.

So, OK. In your world view, it is perfectly OK for a Bourbon St. stripper band to present their kind of music as long as the lyrics are theologically correct. Mon Dieu! My mind is reeling.

 

[VociMike]

But they can play their style of music if it has theologically correct lyrics.

This strikes me as a particularly Protestant view of things. The words are all that really matter. The music is nothing but a vehicle for the words, and any vehicle will do. There is no art arising from the fusion of words and music, for if there were then the music would also matter, and the fusion of the two would matter. But if only the words matter, then really, why have music at all? Why not just recite the words?

There it is. If the words are all that matter, why not just recite them? And take all that money spent on musicians and music issues and give it to the poor. Because only the words matter.

 

[aloysiusg]

This is getting absolutely frustrating. Those of us on the contemporary side have said on many occasion our appreciation of chant and how beautiful it is, and yet I have yet to find even a moderate comment toward the music we play. Every comment from the traditionalist camp is unilaterally condescending. It is hard to take you seriously if you will not engage in discussion. It appears as if you just want to push your agenda, and anyone who disagrees with it be damned. I suppose you won’t be satisfied until we all take our guitars and throw them into a giant bonfire so that we can then take up organ lessons. You treat people like Haugen, Hass and the SLJ like they are the enemy, like they’ve written pagan music and they are trying to drag us all down to hell - why are you so bitter against the current liturgical music? I can fully understand not liking it, and I can fully understand doing everything possible to avoid it if that is your preference, but the blanket statements made against it just seem so incredibly unChristian. I really, really, really want to understand an dappreciate your viewpoint on this, because it is a voice that needs to be heard, but the way in which you express it is so myopic as to be unyielding. My apologies if I have offended, but I have been biting my lip for some time now and I just see the same posting over and over again - nothing seems to be getting solved.

In peace,
Al

 

[VociMike]

This is getting absolutely frustrating. Those of us on the contemporary side have said on many occasion our appreciation of chant and how beautiful it is, and yet I have yet to find even a moderate comment toward the music we play. Every comment from the traditionalist camp is unilaterally condescending. It is hard to take you seriously if you will not engage in discussion. It appears as if you just want to push your agenda, and anyone who disagrees with it be damned. I suppose you won’t be satisfied until we all take our guitars and throw them into a giant bonfire so that we can then take up organ lessons. You treat people like Haugen, Hass and the SLJ like they are the enemy, like they’ve written pagan music and they are trying to drag us all down to hell - why are you so bitter against the current liturgical music? I can fully understand not liking it, and I can fully understand doing everything possible to avoid it if that is your preference, but the blanket statements made against it just seem so incredibly unChristian. I really, really, really want to understand an dappreciate your viewpoint on this, because it is a voice that needs to be heard, but the way in which you express it is so myopic as to be unyielding. My apologies if I have offended, but I have been biting my lip for some time now and I just see the same posting over and over again - nothing seems to be getting solved.

In peace,
Al

What did you want to discuss, exactly? Can we discuss how the music “on the contemporary side” holds up against the standards given by the Church for liturgical music?

Can we discuss whether this music flows organically from the sacred music of the past, thus uniting us with the faithful who have come before us?

Can we discuss whether this music will be sung and revered 500 years from now, thus uniting us with the faithful who will come after us?

So, what exactly is it you want to discuss?

 

[japhy]

Those of us on the contemporary side have said on many occasion our appreciation of chant and how beautiful it is, and yet I have yet to find even a moderate comment toward the music we play.

Well, part of the problem is that most contemporary music sung in churches is not the type of music heard in the Church for the past 1500+ years, and it’s basically replaced the traditional music of the Church, not supplemented it. Chant and Latin (and very rarely polyphony) get lip service on big feasts, and that’s that.

Is it conceivable to you that some music is objectively inferior to other music when it comes to the Mass? That’s what the Church says: the less a particular song (or style of song) is similar to chant, the less suited it is for liturgical worship.

I suppose you won’t be satisfied until we all take our guitars and throw them into a giant bonfire so that we can then take up organ lessons.

You don’t need organ lessons, and you can use the guitar during choir practice as a guide for the notes. I tend to think chant and polyphony sound better without and instrumental accompaniment.

…why are you so bitter against the current liturgical music? I can fully understand not liking it, and I can fully understand doing everything possible to avoid it if that is your preference…

It’s not our preference. That’s what we’ve been saying many times over.

 

[Cathyd241]

God demands to be worshiped in a very particular manner
2Kings 6:6
I want to attend Mass not a rock concert.

Thus Spoke Zarathustra

You lost me when you quoted scripture…doesn’t make any sense.