Music at mass

[bayoubutterfly]

well I guess those of us who go the Masses that use modern praise songs are just all going to Hell…
When I stand before God, I guess he will say “Michelle, you actually LIKED the modern worship songs at Mass, off to Hell you go”

 

[benedictgal]

Let me try this approach, since I must apparnetly watch what I say or someone will tell on me to the principal again.

Here are two songs - don’t know to what extent any of you are familiar with them, but if you are, please tell me, in as simple a way as possible, their appropriateness for a mass. Maybe even use a scale - 1 - totally inappropriate up to 5 - perfectly fine.

“Take, Lord, Receive” - from G&P, based on the prayer of St Ignatius, founder of the Jesuits

“Lord I lift Your Name on High” - a P & W tune - don’t know offhand the composer, but it is recent (post 80’s, I’m pretty sure) - popular tune in the Steubenvillish crowd.

The first one I would rank as a 2.5. Just because it is based on the prayer of St. Ignatius of Loyola the setting by the SLJ isn’t the best.

The second one would be below a 1. This is a Protestant Praise and Worship song that has no place in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It certainly falls under the banal and makes the singer the focus of the song more than God. The setting is also more inclined towards rock (with drums, electric guitars, et al) and doesn’t take into account the full unversality of the Church, which is this, as noted by Francis Cardinal Arinze:

The Eucharistic Sacrifice is the sacrifice of the whole Church. The Church on earth offers it in union with the members of the Church in the glory of heaven and in intercession for the souls in purgatory.11

Do you not understand that during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the veil between heaven and earth is lifted? We get a glimpse into the Divine Majesty of the Triune God. Why would we use sub-par, banal music when the Church has a rich treasury of Sacred hymnody?

Regarding sacred music, Cardinal Arinze has this to say:

Sacred music deserves special mention. It has been said that he who sings once prays twice. If hymns are sung which are theologically rich and artistically recommendable, they will not be without good effects. Saint Augustine tells us how he was moved to tears when he listened to the execution of hymns, canticles and psalms under the guidance of Saint Ambrose in Milan:

How did I weep, in the hymns and canticles, touched to the quick by the voices of thy sweet-attuned Church! The voices flowed into mine ears, and the truth distilled into my heart, whence the affections of my devotion overflowed, and tears ran down, and happy was I therein.16

If the liturgy is to work out so beautifully, then the observation of norms is a requirement

Maybe there are some who have an aversion to reading what the Church actually says because, deep inside, they are afraid that She will prove them wrong.

 

[japhy]

Here are two songs - don’t know to what extent any of you are familiar with them, but if you are, please tell me, in as simple a way as possible, their appropriateness for a mass. Maybe even use a scale - 1 - totally inappropriate up to 5 - perfectly fine.

“Take, Lord, Receive” … “Lord I lift Your Name on High”

I’ve never heard the first (although I think benedictgal knows it). I know the second very well, since I hear it on the radio pretty often; it’s by Rick Founds and was composed in 1989. It’s a pop Christian song and really repetitive. There’s one “verse” and a refrain, and the song ends with the refrain ad libitum. Your scale is really small. Could I suggest 1-10 at least?

This song is probably about a 2 on my scale… a 1.5 or so on your scale. There’s worse songs, but it’s really down there. The temptation to include hand motions (which I’ve seen, but not during Mass) is another detractor.

 

[japhy]

well I guess those of us who go the Masses that use modern praise songs are just all going to Hell…

No one said that; please make intelligent and dispassionate comments.

 

[benedictgal]

well I guess those of us who go the Masses that use modern praise songs are just all going to Hell…
When I stand before God, I guess he will say “Michelle, you actually LIKED the modern worship songs at Mass, off to Hell you go”

Rather than make statements like that, why not actually sit down and read what the Church has said? The bone of contention is that the fault lies with the publishing houses that are promoting this banality and masking it for something that it is not. You certainly aren’t obligated to sing something that is doctrinally and liturgically deficient. The fact of the matter is that reading the Church’s liturgical documents and books by bona fide authorities like Pope Benedict XVI and Francis Cardinal Arinze (the Prefect for the Congregation on Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments) will both educate and edify.

I mean, if many are willing to read the economic proposals of the presidential candidates or look up which new car will get you the best gas mileage, why not make the same effort to study the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and Sacred Music?

 

[bayoubutterfly]

my statement was no more full of nonsense then a few others on here. I am entitled to my opinion just like everyone else is.

BTW, the “norm” is using the organ for music right? I could be wrong, but I don’t think they had organs back in the days of Jesus I also remember Jesus telling us to feed the poor, etc, etc, I don’t remember anything about Him teaching us to waste our time worrying about what kind of music they play at Mass. I could be wrong about that also

 

[aloysiusg]

bgal - I will take a 2.5 on that first song out of you any day of the week

And I totally understand your rating of a 1 for the second song. I would never use it in a mass, I would hope you don’t think I would.

 

[benedictgal]

my statement was no more full of nonsense then a few others on here. I am entitled to my opinion just like everyone else is.

BTW, the “norm” is using the organ for music right? I could be wrong, but I don’t think they had organs back in the days of Jesus I also remember Jesus telling us to feed the poor, etc, etc, I don’t remember anything about Him teaching us to waste our time worrying about what kind of music they play at Mass. I could be wrong about that also

First of all, your statement shows a misunderstanding of the authority of the Church. Jesus charged St. Peter and his successors with binding and loosening. Binding means establishing norms for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Among these norms is the fact that the organ is the default instrument for music for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Perhaps you may not understand the importance of norms in the Mass. As Cardinal Arinze notes:

1. Harm Done by Non-Observance of Liturgical Norms

Looking at things from a different perspective, we can appreciate negatively the importance of the observance of liturgical norms if we list some of the damages which can be introduced by ignoring these norms.

Liturgical abuses can confuse the congregation and occasion uncertainty, perplexity, scandal, opposition and factionalism. In more severe cases, they can obscure the Catholic faith and prevent the people from sharing fully in the celebration of the mysteries of Christ. To ignore liturgical norms can also reinforce a false understanding of freedom. In ecumenical efforts it introduces problems and sometimes a wrong presentation of the Catholic faith.17

To ignore liturgical norms can in a subtle way introduce secularization and gradual banalization into the liturgy. In this short-sighted vision, a church building may no longer be seen as a sacred place. Do the people then come to church for Mass as to a “meeting” like in a stadium or congress hall? Do they talk in church as if it were not appreciated as a sacred place separated from secular daily events? Does this tendency regard the norms on the use of liturgical vestments as triumphalism? Does it lead to a type of secular leveling down which prefers to say cup instead of chalice, plate instead of paten, dress instead of vestment, and president instead of priest celebrant?

To ignore liturgical norms can gradually introduce such erosions

Might I also remind you that the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy notes that:

1. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things.

Furthermore, Musicam Sacram states that:

"The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin Church, since it is its traditional instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lift up men’s minds to God and higher things.

"The use of other instruments may also be admitted in divine worship, given the decision and consent of the competent territorial authority, provided that the instruments are suitable for sacred use, or can be adapted to it, that they are in keeping with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful."43

1. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.44

Therefore electric guitars, keyboards and drum sets are too secular to be used for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It’s association is too tight with rock music to make it suitable for Sacred Music.

 

[bayoubutterfly]

First of all, your statement shows a misunderstanding of the authority of the Church. Jesus charged St. Peter and his successors with binding and loosening. Binding means establishing norms for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Among these norms is the fact that the organ is the default instrument for music for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

please don’t assume what I understand and what I don’t. I understand authority perfectly! Which is WHY it’s not OUR place to worry about the music, leave it up to the authority! That is what I’m saying, IF the authority decided what is appropriate or not, then we must accept it. If our close authority is wrong, then leave it up to THEIR authority to deal with it. As individuals what is appropriate is objective

 

[benedictgal]

please don’t assume what I understand and what I don’t. I understand authority perfectly! Which is WHY it’s not OUR place to worry about the music, leave it up to the authority! That is what I’m saying, IF the authority decided what is appropriate or not, then we must accept it. If our close authority is wrong, then leave it up to THEIR authority to deal with it. As individuals what is appropriate is objective

Actually, it is our place to worry about the music and other things related to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. According to Redemptionis Sacramentum:

In this regard it is not possible to be silent about the abuses, even quite grave ones, against the nature of the Liturgy and the Sacraments as well as the tradition and the authority of the Church, which in our day not infrequently plague liturgical celebrations in one ecclesial environment or another. In some places the perpetration of liturgical abuses has become almost habitual, a fact which obviously cannot be allowed and must cease.

…it is the right of all of Christ’s faithful that the Liturgy, and in particular the celebration of Holy Mass, should truly be as the Church wishes, according to her stipulations as prescribed in the liturgical books and in the other laws and norms. Likewise, the Catholic people have the right that the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass should be celebrated for them in an integral manner, according to the entire doctrine of the Church’s Magisterium. Finally, it is the Catholic community’s right that the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharist should be carried out for it in such a manner that it truly stands out as a sacrament of unity, to the exclusion of all blemishes and actions that might engender divisions and factions in the Church.32

Therefore, contrary to what you have stated, it is indeed important for the faithful to care about the manner in which the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is celebrated. This includes music. It matters to us that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is celebrated in the form and manner prescribed by the Church. It is our right that it should be so. Unfortunately, many priests and many bishops have done some serious damage. Oddly enough, the laity have been the ones to take it upon their shoulders to write to Rome to inform them of abuses and serious lapses in judgment, and the Holy See has responded.

Therefore, to say that this is something that it is not our place to worry about means that one may not necessarily understand the importance of maintaining the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, inclusive of the music used for same.

 

[aloysiusg]

bg - what I think bayou is saying is that there are authoritative people in place to determine what music is appropriate or not, and those people have not determined that the music in question for this thread is inappropriate, thus who are we to question their authority?

Now, as local parishoners, if our music ministers are performing the music in a way that is abusive to the liturgy, then that is something we should definitely speak on.

 

[benedictgal]

bg - what I think bayou is saying is that there are authoritative people in place to determine what music is appropriate or not, and those people have not determined that the music in question for this thread is inappropriate, thus who are we to question their authority?

Now, as local parishoners, if our music ministers are performing the music in a way that is abusive to the liturgy, then that is something we should definitely speak on.

But, I would submit that there have been instances where the governing body (bishop, pastor) has made some mistakes. It is the right of the faithful to call these into question. OCP and GIA do not have any ecclesial authority whatsover. None. Many of their songs are problematic. However, they seem to be able to fly under the radar just because they have either “Catholic” or “Gregorian” in their names.

Now, even when the situation concerns music, the faithful do have the right to petition:

1. Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters
   [183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favoritism.

[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.290 It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.

Now, the USCCB had already discussed several serious problems with regards to music used in the Mass. They had the opportunity to enact meaningful reform to the point that the original version of A New Song to the Lord was supposed to have some teeth to it that would have required a 2/3 vote to be sent to Rome. However, the NPM and the FDLC lobbied the bishops to produce a severely watered down document that didn’t get the necessary 2/3 vote to be sent to Rome for the recognitio. It is basically a defanged and declawed tiger. Clearly, this was not one of the USCCB’s finest liturgical moments or movements, for that matter.

Had the USCCB stuck to its guns and held firm to the findings that the original powerpoint indicated (by the way, the document was also supposed to fully conform to Liturgicam Authenticam–the five-year deadline expired without the bishops taking any concrete action), then thing would have changed mighty fast for the publishing houses. Unfortunately, having worked in a legislative environment for 12 years, I am familiar with lobbyists coming in and derailing things.

 

[Lepanto]

FIrst answer (from Lepanto), however, doesn’t address that, but goes off on a ridiculous hypothetical tangent - thread regressed from there, to the point where it is now.

What exactly is wrong with the music of Hatebreed, Impaler, and Napalm death? Just because you don’t like it?

If I happen to like it, then I think it should be used in the Mass.

 

[VociMike]

well I guess those of us who go the Masses that use modern praise songs are just all going to Hell…
When I stand before God, I guess he will say “Michelle, you actually LIKED the modern worship songs at Mass, off to Hell you go”

I’m sorry, this comment contributes to the discussion exactly how?

What God may say is “Why did you reject the teachings of my Church and place your own personal preferences above them?” And what would your answer be? This is the key here. “Nevermind what the Church teaches, I want what I want!”

 

[VociMike]

I don’t really see how this proves your point. Sure these are the words of the popes, but this statement is very vague and doesn’t specify exactly what is ‘ugly, distasteful, uninspired, and not worthy’. That seems to be somewhat subjective, don’t you think?

Not when viewed in the light of what the Church teaches to be the supreme model and permanent standard for sacred music. One who is “profoundly immersed in the sensus Ecclesiae” will have no problem in discerning what is ugly, distasteful, uninspired and not worthy.

Why are so many people so all-fired anxious to avoid the clear teachings of the Church on this matter? You’ve got 167 hours a week to listen to any kind of music you want. Can’t you follow the teachings of the Church for that other one hour a week? Can’t you just submit and obey and put aside your personal musical preferences for 0.5952% of the week? Can’t you actually perform that musical examination of conscience that Pope John Paul II called for? Maybe, just maybe, you’ll find that what the Church teaches is actually a good thing - wow, what a concept!

 

[aloysiusg]

Be careful of delving into the realms of sarcasm Voci - I have found it can lead to problems.

 

[japhy]

my statement was no more full of nonsense then a few others on here. I am entitled to my opinion just like everyone else is.

Well, those of us who are trying to explain the Church’s stance on sacred music are attempting to avoid providing our own opinions and instead are simply transmitting the teaching of the Church on the matter. There’s a lot of Contemporary Christian Music on the radio that I hear that I like; that’s my opinion. But it doesn’t belong in the Mass, because it a) does not adhere to the Church’s norms on sacred music, and b) would be supplanting the music proper to the Mass!

BTW, the “norm” is using the organ for music right? I could be wrong, but I don’t think they had organs back in the days of Jesus

You’re right… they had chant! The pipe organ has origins in antiquity, and as early as the 6th and 7th centuries, bellows-operated organs existed.

I also remember Jesus telling us to feed the poor, etc, etc, I don’t remember anything about Him teaching us to waste our time worrying about what kind of music they play at Mass.

Can’t we feed the poor and worship God according to the mind of the Church? And doesn’t “zeal for [his] Father’s house consume [him]”? Did he not drive out the money-changers who were profaning the Temple?

 

[bayoubutterfly]

bg - what I think bayou is saying is that there are authoritative people in place to determine what music is appropriate or not, and those people have not determined that the music in question for this thread is inappropriate, thus who are we to question their authority?

that is exactly what I was saying. Thank you! You are also right about being careful about sarcasm, not everyone can pull it off. It takes a lot of training

anyway, I guess I’m a bad Catholic because I’m not anal about such things as music. I’ll make sure I’ll work harder as being more anal, instead of focusing my time on loving my neighbor, praying more, etc, etc Y’all have a good time focusing on things that don’t really matter in the grand scheme of things though.

P.S. don’t even waste anymore time with rebuttals to me, I won’t read them. Instead why don’t you take that time to pray for something that matters, like starving children around the world.

 

[VociMike]

bg - what I think bayou is saying is that there are authoritative people in place to determine what music is appropriate or not, and those people have not determined that the music in question for this thread is inappropriate, thus who are we to question their authority?

But if these people in authority were actually all doing their jobs correctly then our recent popes would never have lamented the problem of ugly, distasteful, uninspired, unworthy music. Our recent popes would not have called upon the entire Christian community to perform a musical examination of conscience. Our recent popes would not have felt the need to point out that certainly as far as the liturgy goes, one song is not as good as another. Our recent popes would not have called on the people to purify worship of deformations, of careless forms of expression, of ill-prepared music and texts.

The fact that our recent popes have said all these things is clear evidence that the authority figures between Vatican II and the popes on the one hand, and the people in the pews on the other hand, have faied in large measure, and that is why our recent popes keep calling on them to get back into line.

 

[VociMike]

that is exactly what I was saying. Thank you! You are also right about being careful about sarcasm, not everyone can pull it off. It takes a lot of training

anyway, I guess I’m a bad Catholic because I’m not anal about such things as music. I’ll make sure I’ll work harder as being more anal, instead of focusing my time on loving my neighbor, praying more, etc, etc Y’all have a good time focusing on things that don’t really matter in the grand scheme of things though.

P.S. don’t even waste anymore time with rebuttals to me, I won’t read them. Instead why don’t you take that time to pray for something that matters, like starving children around the world.

It’s too bad that you don’t think the liturgy of the Church matters, or that the music which forms a necessary and integral part of that liturgy (according to Vatican II) matters. But we know it does. And Pope Benedict XVI knows it does, which is why he wrote that “I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves today depends in great part upon the collapse of the liturgy.”

So maybe you can take a break from all the snide comments and investigate the question with an open mind and with the light of Church teaching to guide you.