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Magdalen2013
Guest
You’re welcome, Sarabande. My biggest problem is transposing letters when I type…which can create some interesting mis-spellings.
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Sarabande
Guest
Haha! I’m sure it can.
. Doing the typing on the phone (which I’m doing now) is even worse, because I’m always hitting the wrong letters. Or if I do spell the word correctly, but it’s a word in another language or spelled the British way, the automatic spellcheck changes the word if it’s not recognized. I don’t always catch it and it can sometimes make the sentence incomprehensible. My daughter’s name is one I don’t like to spell on here, because it’s a French name and the phone always wants to “correct” the spelling. Lol!But back on track with the thread…
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DaveBj
Guest
I’ve got one whole YouTube video, taken by a friend at the recent International Euphonium Institute Festival:
youtube.com/watch?v=SM70g7upUnY
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27lw
Guest
Hi you guys,
I mean in the most charitable way - - but don’t you think the music director should be allowed to choose the people that he / she wants to use for musicians / singers?
Would you like it if a bunch of folks showed up at your workplace and wanted to “volunteer” to help you?
In other words, it’s not supposed to be like karaoke night. But I don’t know, maybe you are better trained / sound better than the people who are functioning as cantor. In most parishes I’ve seen the music leaves a lot to be desired, so who knows.
I mean in the most charitable way - - but don’t you think the music director should be allowed to choose the people that he / she wants to use for musicians / singers?
Would you like it if a bunch of folks showed up at your workplace and wanted to “volunteer” to help you?
In other words, it’s not supposed to be like karaoke night. But I don’t know, maybe you are better trained / sound better than the people who are functioning as cantor. In most parishes I’ve seen the music leaves a lot to be desired, so who knows.
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Sarabande
Guest
Yes and no. It depends on the levels of talent and knowledge of the music director. Some places have, what some would describe as, hacks. They somehow attained the position of music director despite their inabilities, and they make sure that anyone they allow in the music program is not as talented as them. Then there are other music directors who are incredible and do what they can to get the best musicians and music in their programs. It can be a huge mix. Church politics at some parishes can really hurt (or help) a music program. You might have a wonderful music director, but the powers that be control things so that their hands are tied as to who can be in and what can be played. Or you can have the great MD, but politics that really work in their favor and the parish’s favor.
Most parishes only use volunteer cantors and sometimes even volunteer instrumentalists, so it can be a mixed bag of ability. They want volunteers and encourage it. Every once in a while you get someone with a pleasant voice or a rather beautiful and remarkable voice which just adds to the prayer in the music liturgy hundred-fold for me. Other parishes, like the ones I work for, pay their cantors, but they are few and far between. All of the cantors in the parishes I’m at are professional, classically trained singers. It’s something that the congregations in these parishes wanted and appreciate. At each one, the music directors slowly moved the volunteer cantors out and replaced them with the professional ones. I know there were hurt feelings at one place. I wasn’t part of the program at the time, but it was relayed to me by the music director. It was hard to navigate, especially when some were long time parishioners. They were welcome to be part of the choir, but they didn’t want to sing with trained singers. One of the problems you can run into, though, is that some of these professional singers aren’t Catholic. They may not understand the order of the mass, but do learn it eventually. Others also may not have had much training in chanting if they were mainly operatically trained, so their chant style sounds more like an opera singer than someone rendering his/her voice to sound more straight-toned. Some may also have beautiful voices and make the music liturgy much more bearable, but may not have the level of respect or knowledge that is needed. That said, all of my non-Catholic colleagues are very respectful and sometimes know the liturgy much better than the average person in the pews.
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pnewton
Guest
So much depends on the parish. I turn no one down. On the other hand, many have no desire to join when I tell them I do not have a weekly practice night. They don’t want to help out if they can’t practice as a group and experience has shown this to be impractical multiple attempts. This is one reason we have to be so slow in adding new music.
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Sarabande
Guest
Yes, that is true as well. I do believe with parishes where they depend on and encourage volunteerism and it is a healthy music program (ie. no politics, etc.) people aren’t turned down. It’s funny how at your parish people who want to join decide not to when they find out there is no weekly practice night. It shows how different parishes can be. I’ve been in parishes where people love it that they don’t have to meet for a weekly practice, except on the morning of. When I helped run a music program in our Newman Center, we tried to get a group together to practice once a week, but no one would show up. They all preferred to just meet up an hour before the mass and practice then. Then on the other side when I ran a children’s choir, our rehearsals were during school hours and I’d have about 30 kids for the school masses. The pastor wanted the children to sing at the 5:00 vigil mass on Saturdays, rather than at the 10:00 on Sunday, and I was lucky if I got 8 kids on Saturday.
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Sarabande
Guest
That was wonderful!
Thank you so much for sharing it. Are there works you can do with the organist for special masses, like how some churches hire trumpet players and other instruments for feast days, etc.?
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DaveBj
Guest
Yes, for example, either of the Aves (Schubert or Bach-Gounod). Most of what I do is with pre-recorded accompaniments that I have arranged myself, but if a keyboardist can do an accompaniment to a song that I know, I can do the solo line.That was wonderful!
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Sarabande
Guest
Your parish is fortunate to have you and it’s a shame that those in the music program aren’t taking advantage of it, especially since you have volunteered your services. I’m very sorry about that.
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catholictiger
Guest
it depends, if the music is written for the Mass or written not for prophet it should be ok.
Music should help people to enter more deeply into the mass, it should never take on a life of its own.
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agapewolf
Guest
I assume you mean “not for profit”…and …where did you get that litmus test? There is nothing in the documents that say music is good to go if it wasn’t written for profit.
Composers can have intellectual property. It can be their living to compose music for the liturgy.
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catholictiger
Guest
I think it menitons it in the Catechism but I remember it from one of my liturgical courses in seminary. I currently can’t quote documents but the music in the liturgy should be written for the liturgy and it only. Music written for commercial purpose can be nice but isn’t set apart like music for the mass should be.
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agapewolf
Guest
They are not exclusive. Writing music for the liturgy can be someone’s living.
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catholictiger
Guest
it was misleading what I said about making music for profit. My understanding of it is that Music that is used for the mass should be written for sacred purposes, not commercial purposes. Yes someone can make a living off of making music for sacred purposes. But going and playing music that was first written to sell CDs and not written to be played in the mass and then it is brought into the mass is not the preferred use of music by the Church.
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Sarabande
Guest
Yes, and much of the vast liturgical repertoire, spanning centuries, have been composed by people who were either paid by the Church or other lay patrons.
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catholictiger
Guest
while it doesn’t exclusively say what I’m saying if you read a little deeper into this text I think you can see what I’m trying to say.
But as far as the OP goes someone can write for the mass and it is ok it doesn’t only have to come from the missal.
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catholictiger
Guest
note I may be taking it to far with saying that the Church doesn’t allow commerical music to be in the mass. Sorry if I’ve done that
but I think it is a wise thing to do that the music we use in the liturgy is something that is set apart from the world. While some classical music may be very beautiful things to play in the mass that music isn’t set apart like the music we play in Church.
As always the Church when it comes to the celebration of the liturgy is very broad and not specific about things.
but I think it is a wise thing to do that the music we use in the liturgy is something that is set apart from the world. While some classical music may be very beautiful things to play in the mass that music isn’t set apart like the music we play in Church.
As always the Church when it comes to the celebration of the liturgy is very broad and not specific about things
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Sarabande
Guest
I agree with you. There are some who believe that because it’s “old”, has religious text and is of the highest standard of musical composition then it should be permitted at mass. Then there are others who believe that almost anything should go be permitted as long as it is religious in nature. Although I believe that the highest standard should always be the goal, never settling for less if you can achieve the best for God and for our liturgy, I also believe that it’s not a free-for-all just because it is religious. Some composers write and have written religious music not meant for use in liturgy… even if “Mass” is used in the title. Some composed incredibly moving religious solo vocal works, but are too operatic in nature to be used at mass (in my opinion… and this is coming from a classically trained singer who is also an opera singer.)note I may be taking it to far with saying that the Church doesn’t allow commerical music to be in the mass. Sorry if I’ve done that
but I think it is a wise thing to do that the music we use in the liturgy is something that is set apart from the world. While some classical music may be very beautiful things to play in the mass that music isn’t set apart like the music we play in Church.
As always the Church when it comes to the celebration of the liturgy is very broad and not specific about things
I do think liturgical music should be set apart. The music should be rendered differently if performed in a liturgical settings. It shouldn’t sound like you can hear it at a rock concert or a symphony hall, etc… There is a reason why in the past the Church has always done a crack-down on the music, the instrumentation or the way instruments and voices are used to make sure that it didn’t sound too “secular”. She lets the artists, in a way, explore a bit, and when it begins to get out of the borders of what’s appropriate, She makes reigns them back in. We’ve been in an era where the exploration has gone a little too far (like in eras past) and what I’ve seen is that people are beginning to want to reign it in again - both in the clergy and the lay people. I don’t know what’s happening in other areas, but where I’m at, more parishes are reigning it in.
I will add that I sometimes think that part of the reason why the Church is broad in Her descriptions is so She does not stifle spiritual artistry and creativity in all of the arts.
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TCCOV
Guest
Wow, this thread’s frayed in a lot of directions…
Regarding membership in a parish music program, my mantra is more or less:
*The formation of choirs is to encouraged always over the convenience of appointing/hiring of soloists as song leaders. A competent choir provides better modeling for congregational singing.
*Whenever possible, a parish director or choir master should form at least two levels of choir ability: 1. An auditioned group with criteria that will enable them to sing comprehensively the literature endorsed by the Church and other sacred pieces who aesthetic/artistic merit adorn the liturgy without overwhelming the liturgy; 2. an open, non-auditioned group inwhich the director can choose appropriate music of all approved sources, and hopefully develop the skill sets of the members who may want eventually to move up to the rigors of the auditioned group.
A parish DM should also encourage other competent musical leadership that desire to form other choirs or vocal/instrumental ensembles as long as there are sufficient numbers of Masses to support their participation. Those “auxiliary” groups and their leaders should respect the DM as the liason of the pastor’s direction and wishes for the health of the music ministry and edification of the faithful.
Soloists who desire not to join a choir, but function as so-called cantors, ought to only be used from absolute necessity. Being a Psalmist or Cantor is actually a quite demanding role that Caruso’s and Diva’s need not apply for. The quality of voice and its style is not as important as the soloists’ attitude and understanding of their role. And they also need to be disciplined to accept the advisory and mandatory concerns of the DM as the pastor’s proxy. Their repertoire preferences should not conflict with established parish priorities.
**
There is a reason why in the past the Church has always done a crack-down on the music, the instrumentation or the way instruments and voices are used to make sure that it didn’t sound too “secular”. She lets the artists, in a way, explore a bit, and when it begins to get out of the borders of what’s appropriate, She makes reigns them back in.
As far as I’m aware, there have only been two historically universal and pervasive attempts to regulate musical and compositional praxis, both of them spurred on by abuses perceived as having their origin in the secular art music realms: The Council of Trent and the 1903 Motu proprio of St. Pope Pius X. Neither of them resulted in any measurable “crack down” as polyphony morphed into faux-opera via the Venetians, and the Romantic excesses of the late 19th century, whether the saccharine people-friendly hymns of folks like Nicolai Montani or the grandiosity of Verdi found popularity within the congregations attending Mass.
We are still recovering from the latter’s effects, Solesmes and the Vatican have squabbled over the recovery and authenticity of the body of music called Gregorian, and the reforms envisioned by Pio X were hi-jacked by folks all over the map from Bugnini, Gelineau, Diekmann, Weakland and paved the way for a new populism in “roots music” in the Woody Guthrie tradition rather than, say, the Bach or Lutheran chorale.
There likely will never be a formal “crack down.” The recovery of authentic and culturally native Roman Rite liturgy will happen, if anything, like the movement of German music during the development of the Singmesse, which then received an indult for that nations’ liturgical practice. Happily, we are hearing the grass roots rising with “chant” being the primary unifier of Catholic identity within parishes far and wide and growing.
Regarding membership in a parish music program, my mantra is more or less:
*The formation of choirs is to encouraged always over the convenience of appointing/hiring of soloists as song leaders. A competent choir provides better modeling for congregational singing.
*Whenever possible, a parish director or choir master should form at least two levels of choir ability: 1. An auditioned group with criteria that will enable them to sing comprehensively the literature endorsed by the Church and other sacred pieces who aesthetic/artistic merit adorn the liturgy without overwhelming the liturgy; 2. an open, non-auditioned group inwhich the director can choose appropriate music of all approved sources, and hopefully develop the skill sets of the members who may want eventually to move up to the rigors of the auditioned group.
A parish DM should also encourage other competent musical leadership that desire to form other choirs or vocal/instrumental ensembles as long as there are sufficient numbers of Masses to support their participation. Those “auxiliary” groups and their leaders should respect the DM as the liason of the pastor’s direction and wishes for the health of the music ministry and edification of the faithful.
Soloists who desire not to join a choir, but function as so-called cantors, ought to only be used from absolute necessity. Being a Psalmist or Cantor is actually a quite demanding role that Caruso’s and Diva’s need not apply for. The quality of voice and its style is not as important as the soloists’ attitude and understanding of their role. And they also need to be disciplined to accept the advisory and mandatory concerns of the DM as the pastor’s proxy. Their repertoire preferences should not conflict with established parish priorities.
**
There is a reason why in the past the Church has always done a crack-down on the music, the instrumentation or the way instruments and voices are used to make sure that it didn’t sound too “secular”. She lets the artists, in a way, explore a bit, and when it begins to get out of the borders of what’s appropriate, She makes reigns them back in.
As far as I’m aware, there have only been two historically universal and pervasive attempts to regulate musical and compositional praxis, both of them spurred on by abuses perceived as having their origin in the secular art music realms: The Council of Trent and the 1903 Motu proprio of St. Pope Pius X. Neither of them resulted in any measurable “crack down” as polyphony morphed into faux-opera via the Venetians, and the Romantic excesses of the late 19th century, whether the saccharine people-friendly hymns of folks like Nicolai Montani or the grandiosity of Verdi found popularity within the congregations attending Mass.
We are still recovering from the latter’s effects, Solesmes and the Vatican have squabbled over the recovery and authenticity of the body of music called Gregorian, and the reforms envisioned by Pio X were hi-jacked by folks all over the map from Bugnini, Gelineau, Diekmann, Weakland and paved the way for a new populism in “roots music” in the Woody Guthrie tradition rather than, say, the Bach or Lutheran chorale.
There likely will never be a formal “crack down.” The recovery of authentic and culturally native Roman Rite liturgy will happen, if anything, like the movement of German music during the development of the Singmesse, which then received an indult for that nations’ liturgical practice. Happily, we are hearing the grass roots rising with “chant” being the primary unifier of Catholic identity within parishes far and wide and growing.
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