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pnewton
Guest
I had to take that one down a step and a half. I use that one, but then if you remember, I bring new songs in seldom. They sing it pretty well.
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S
Sarabande
Guest
Yeah, I’ve never heard a problem with the range whenever I’ve heard congregants singing it, though I can understand bringing it down a little if a particular congregation you are familiar with can’t sing it in the original key. My student has a natural baritone vocal range and he’s fine with it. He has discovered that if he doesn’t “whisper-sing” like so many do, he can reach the “high” notes (if you can call them high) quite easily. Rhythmically, though, no matter what parish I’m at whether I’m cantoring or in the congregation, it always ends up being a mess, if not by the musicians playing, then by people in the congregation.
You make a good point, though, that since you don’t bring in new songs often, they have more time to practice the “problem” hymns. If you have a good leader, like yourself, they will learn it correctly. Most of the places where I’ve been might do hymns like “You Are Mine” once every few months. I’ve probably sung it twice in 6 months at one parish. It’s not really strophic enough for people to catch onto the changes in the rhythms for each verse quickly enough, so you need much more time to learn it correctly. While I understand people liking those kinds of hymns, they are not always the most user-friendly for a congregation to pick up quickly and correctly.
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LittleRose
Guest
Popular music is great, just not at mass–and that includes adapting popular tunes to new lyrics.
This is the opinion of every well-informed priest and music director I have ever met in my 18 years of involvement in liturgical music.
If I may be excused for paraphrasing “Mommie Dearest”:
No
Pop
Music
At mass.
Ever!
This is the opinion of every well-informed priest and music director I have ever met in my 18 years of involvement in liturgical music.
If I may be excused for paraphrasing “Mommie Dearest”:
No
Pop
Music
At mass.
Ever!
W
wednman
Guest
pnewton,
surely you aren’t saying a song written by a proud to be communist folk singer, shouldn’t be sung before,during, or after Mass?
surely you aren’t saying a song written by a proud to be communist folk singer, shouldn’t be sung before,during, or after Mass?
M
MarkInOregon
Guest
It’s funny–I feel the same way about organ music. I know what they say but organ music does nothing to lift my mind up to God and to higher things. For me it is simply dreadful–like finger nails on a chalk board. I find that it adds no wonderful splendor to the Churches ceremonies but rather drags them down. I find the organ better suited to carnivals, skating rinks and baseball games – all places where it was the traditional musical instrument. I just don’t find the music it produces to be in any way sublime.
To edify is to instruct and improve esp. in moral and religious knowledge. Many praise and worship songs do indeed do this. They too can lift ones mind to God. If I sing "Father holy…Lord God almighty…The universe declares your majesty…You are holy, holy, holy, holy, Hallelujah to the Lord of heaven and earth [6x] – It does indeed help me worship lifting my mind and heart to God --in a much deeper way than singing say Faith of our Fathers accompanied by an organ does. Sorry that’s just the way it is for me. I know that these are not popular sentiments around here but give me chant, give me piano’s, give me guitars, give me anything but organ music.
The peace of Christ,
Mark
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Sarabande
Guest
An organ can sound hellacious if a person does not understand how to play it or know that particular organ well. It’s not like picking up a guitar or playing a piano. Each organ (especially pipe organs) can be very difficult in feel and sound and if you don’t understand each of the stops, you can be creating some rather unpleasant sounds, so I am very understanding when people say they don’t like an organ. I’ve heard organs at games, carnivals, etc. and the certain stops and such used are often different from what is used for a church organ… IF and only IF the organist really knows what he/she is doing. I’ve heard good organists not really use the right kind of stops for certain pieces and then heard other good organists play the same work and it sounds completely different and completely spiritually edifying.
I personally don’t care for Praise and Worship songs, although I have listened to them to get an idea of what people like about them. The words can be nice sometimes, but for the most part they leave me cold and physically not feeling so well. And I understand people can feel the same with chant and polyphony and organ and other forms of sacred/religious music and that’s okay. If we only went to our feelings and emotions in terms of what is acceptable at mass, it can be a hot mess, but we also can’t deny the fact that music does pull on our emotions very strongly and that is one of the major reasons why there has always been debate about music at mass. That is why, for me, I try to follow as closely as possible with what the Church has given us as guidelines. I mean, if it was up to me, I’d have all of the major huge classical, orchestral mass works and over-the-top religious solo motets for mass (along with chant, polyphony, a capella choral motets etc.) because those pieces move me to the ends of the earth in a very spiritual way… BUT I know that is actually not appropriate most of the time, unless you are dealing with mass at the Vatican or a cathedral. Even then, not all orchestral masses and most sacred/religious solo works would be appropriate.
J
John_Lilburne
Guest
Perhaps it depends on the country. I will look at the example of the Entrance song.
In the USA the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) has, I believe, from usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-chapter-2.cfm :
“48. … It is possible to use the antiphon with its Psalm from the Graduale Romanum or the Graduale Simplex, or another chant that is suited to the sacred action, the day, or the time of the year, and whose text has been approved by the Conference of Bishops.”
So in Australia it depends on whether the Australian Catholic Bishops Conference has approved “Turn, Turn, Turn”. There is an approved list at catholic.org.au/national-liturgical-music-board/recommended-hymns-and-songs-approved-by-the-acbc and “Turn, Turn Turn” is not on that list.
But in the USA it depends on whether or not the Conference of Bishops OR the Diocesan Bishop has approved “Turn, Turn, Turn”. It may be difficult to determine what a Diocesan bishop has approved.
The 2001 Instruction Liturgiam Authenticam, at vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20010507_liturgiam-authenticam_en.html has:
“108. … Within five years from the publication of this Instruction, the Conferences of Bishops, necessarily in collaboration with the national and diocesan Commissions and with other experts, shall provide for the publication of a directory or repertory of texts intended for liturgical singing. This document shall be transmitted for the necessary recognitio to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.”
In the USA the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) has, I believe, from usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-chapter-2.cfm :
- … In the Dioceses of the United States of America, there are four options for the Entrance Chant: (1) the antiphon from the Missal or the antiphon with its Psalm from the Graduale Romanum, as set to music there or in another setting; (2) the antiphon and Psalm of the Graduale Simplex for the liturgical time; (3) a chant from another collection of Psalms and antiphons, approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including Psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) another liturgical chant that is suited to the sacred action, the day, or the time of year, similarly approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop.
“48. … It is possible to use the antiphon with its Psalm from the Graduale Romanum or the Graduale Simplex, or another chant that is suited to the sacred action, the day, or the time of the year, and whose text has been approved by the Conference of Bishops.”
So in Australia it depends on whether the Australian Catholic Bishops Conference has approved “Turn, Turn, Turn”. There is an approved list at catholic.org.au/national-liturgical-music-board/recommended-hymns-and-songs-approved-by-the-acbc and “Turn, Turn Turn” is not on that list.
But in the USA it depends on whether or not the Conference of Bishops OR the Diocesan Bishop has approved “Turn, Turn, Turn”. It may be difficult to determine what a Diocesan bishop has approved.
The 2001 Instruction Liturgiam Authenticam, at vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20010507_liturgiam-authenticam_en.html has:
“108. … Within five years from the publication of this Instruction, the Conferences of Bishops, necessarily in collaboration with the national and diocesan Commissions and with other experts, shall provide for the publication of a directory or repertory of texts intended for liturgical singing. This document shall be transmitted for the necessary recognitio to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.”
F
fencersmother
Guest
Back in my old protestant days, my congregation sang ONLY the Psalter… You simply cannot imagine how uninspiring, how awful, it truly was. Always to the same two or three “melodies,” (a stretch to call them that).
Now, I am not big defender of the Gospel Mass which we have had at my parish for some time, but at least it wasn’t done to the funeral drum beat of the 23rd Psalm.
Now, I am not big defender of the Gospel Mass which we have had at my parish for some time, but at least it wasn’t done to the funeral drum beat of the 23rd Psalm.
C
Cat
Guest
Actually Sarabande, I don’t think it’s just a question of an organist’s “expertise.”
If you read MarkinOregon’s post, he says, “I find the organ better suited to carnivals, skating rinks and baseball games – all places where it was the traditional musical instrument. I just don’t find the music it produces to be in any way sublime.”
As I have been saying on CAF for years, whether or not a person will find music “uplifting” or “grating” depends on their upbringing and background.
MarkinOregon said nothing about the skill of the organist–he is talking about the organ itself and the music that it produces. For whatever reason, he can’t see it as a “worship instrument.” To him, it is a secular instrument.
I know other people, including many Catholics, who find organ music loud and grating. They tell me all the time that the prefer piano or guitar in the Mass.
I feel the same way about many of the ancient music styles–to me, they are theatrical because that is where I heard them while growing up. I grew up in a Protestant church where the normal music was Gospel, traditional hymns, and contemporary (rock), and the piano and guitar was used at nearly every worship service, so to me, those styles of music are “worshipful.”
Yes, I know–I get it: if Holy Mother Church says that Gregorian chant is the music most suited to the Mass, then that’s what we shall have to submit to and get used to. But I I personally think that the Vatican will very soon change some of the wording on some of their documents regarding Mass music. Perhaps God does prefer Gregorian chant above all other musical styles. And perhaps not. At any rate, for reasons that are not necessarily their fault, many of His children have a hard time worshiping God during chant.
S
Sarabande
Guest
I can definitely understand that side of it. That said, I have heard well-played organs at places like baseball games, hockey games, etc. Even though they are well-played, they still sounded very “secular” in the style with which they were played and I wouldn’t want to hear the way they are played in those kinds of arenas at a church whether in a Protestant church or a Catholic one. It can make an organ sound really hellacious at mass even if it is well-played. Then what makes it worse is when the organist doesn’t understand that particular organ or tasteful stops for use during liturgy. That was where I was coming from in terms of my response. It’s like that with other instruments, including the voice, but it can be much more pronounced with an organ because it can be so overpowering.
It’s like a concert pianist I know who plays for mass. The person is absolutely and incredibly talented, but seems to have no sense of what is appropriate for liturgy, which has become this person’s reputation in the area. They respect the pianist’s ability, but write the person off because of what is done with the piano. The piano is always played like it is being performed with an orchestral work in front of an audience of thousands. When you cantor with this person, you actually have to use the microphone close up and it forces the singer to sing with a full-operatic voice for like the psalm, otherwise, you can’t be heard… even with the mic. It feels like you are being devoured by it, much like how an organ can make you feel. So, it causes an inappropriate style of singing for mass (rather than just using a classical singing voice) and the music liturgy becomes more like a secular concert work. I have never heard simple hymns played the way they were played with this person. Some of them could have easily been thought that Liszt, himself, wrote out the arrangements, and we know how over-dramatic he was with music. If I only heard the piano heard played just like it was for a orchestral, concert work, I would also think that the piano was only better suited for secular concert works and not for mass.
J
Jeanne1184
Guest
I also find organ music least preferrable for worship; it has a lethargy-inducing effect, for me (no matter how ‘lively’ the organist plays).
My TV had to be returned to factory so I was looking at TCT On Demand shows and other ‘regulars’ that I’m missing. Looking at past “American Religious Townhall Meeting” telecasts, though, I noticed the one below because it tied in with this thread, which I’d already read.
ARTH 2249 – Church Music – Unifying or Divisive Factor? Oct. 28, 2013
americanreligious.org/tele-cast
A couple of key points of the program that I found interesting:
The black pastor of a black congregation stated that their Gospel Music is “moving, loud, electrifying, spiritual, emotional, captivating, attractive, entertaining” … but that while many feel they’ve ‘been to church’ from this music, there are many others who feel ‘let down/empty’ after church services when emotion takes a nose-dive.
“In the presence of an ‘emotional peak’ of a congregated body, God gets lost.”
With some of the ‘rock-n-roll’ high-energy elements of some Christian fests I see on Christian channels, it doesn’t surprise me when a ‘convert’ is next calling in to ‘Ask the Pastor’ or another Q&A program saying that they no longer have the inital fervor and feel they need to be ‘re-baptized or something to be on-fire for Christ again’.
Another panel pastor quoted Augustine, “When the lyric is subsumed in the tune, we must be careful of music in the church.”
The idea being, they said: to seek beauty in music without being entertaining … ‘Beauty’ reminds us of our purpose and sends us forth … whereas entertainment ends when the music stops. That there are some in the church music department who are there for the wrong reasons - (like personal recognition, etc., I assume).
While I found the whole program interesting, the concept that was completely foreign was, “The role of music in the church should reflect the theology of the church.”
At first, it seemed like an unnecessary statement. But the more I thought about it, the more thought-provoking it became.
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Sarabande
Guest
It’s very thought-provoking. I look forward to listening to whole program. It’s’s something I have striven to achieve as a church musician ever since I began to really take music liturgy seriously as a college student and my understanding of it continues to grow and evolve. The concept goes back to a previous post I made in regards to the emotional aspect of music. When we just focus on the way the music makes us feel emotionally, it can and does become a “divisive factor”. It’s more than just beauty in the music, especially since beauty can be extremely subjective and full of emotion. Trying to make sure that the music, as you said, reflects “the theology of the church” can sometimes be challenging, especially when the human element is a part of it. As I mentioned before, there are many works of music I would love to render and/or hear at mass, but the first thing I always have to ask myself is if it is truly appropriate liturgically-speaking… no matter how much it “moves” me spiritually and emotionally.
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WildCatholic
Guest
Good song, but if I heard it at mass i’d probably be pretty uncomfortable. I don’t want to hear that stuff at mass.
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