Music at Mass

[confusedgirl]

I daresay no one enjoys music from only a particular period. Although a whole lot of junk is produced both in the secular and sacred/“sacred” spheres today, there is a small minority in both categories which will be good enough to stand the test of time going in to the future.

I don’t know if today a higher proportion of the aggregate produced is bad compared to in the past.

Do you enjoy music exclusively from the 12th century? Times change! Music changes! There’s nothing wrong with it.

I wonder how angry people were when Pope Gregory added Gregorian chant to the liturgy. Oh the horror they said.

Or when the liturgy transitioned from Greek to Latin. Oh the travesty they said.

Ouch that sort of hurt… I actually listen to Gregorian chant sometime on youtube. I like it because it sets up music to the 1600s and onwards. I mean this is where majority of our church music comes from. Youre right music changes but all church music’s roots are Gregorian. If there was Gregorian chant music would not have its foundation. I mean if you listen to a timeline you can hear the evolution. I love Thomas Tallis, Bach, Mozart, Schubert, Bairstow, Mendelssohn, Biebl, Michael Talbot, Matt Maher, Chris Tomlin, TobyMac, and so many other recent singers. They can’t exist without the other before it.

Interestingly enough though Cardinal Arinze talked about music at mass. He said something along the lines of someone shouldn’t just compose their own thing and sing it at mass. So I thought why not take our oldest hymns and write them in a modern style like what Chris Tomlin and many other christian artists do. I have been to parishes that use pipe organ and some that have bands and some that have piano as a happy medium or even add violin or a string quartet. We don’t have to have mosh pits and headbanging at mass but maybe we just need a more modern style of what we have currently

 

[ProVobis]

Interestingly enough though Cardinal Arinze talked about music at mass. He said something along the lines of someone shouldn’t just compose their own thing and sing it at mass. So I thought why not take our oldest hymns and write them in a modern style like what Chris Tomlin and many other christian artists do. I have been to parishes that use pipe organ and some that have bands and some that have piano as a happy medium or even add violin or a string quartet. We don’t have to have mosh pits and headbanging at mass but maybe we just need a more modern style of what we have currently

Problem is English changes so songs like “Don we now our gay apparel…” and such would have to be revisited, I would think. (Not that I’ve ever heard this in church but just giving an example.)

I do not think anyone questions the need for music to be meet these criteria. Songs to not have to mirror the words of the liturgy though to be all three things.

Seems like though this song did mirror the old translation. I know if I should hear it in Church, the bishop would be quickly getting a letter from me. As you may have inferred from all my posts, I wasn’t the greatest fan of the new translation (or any English translation, for that matter) but it is what it is.

 

[Elizium23]

It almost feels as if I am being subtly evangelized to Protestantism, much like I feel I am being evangelized for homosexualism in those related threads.

I feel that I misspoke in a previous post. There is not a Catholic culture. There is more than one Catholic culture. These cultures more or less directly correspond to the liturgical Rites and respective patrimonies of each sui iuris Church in communion with Rome. That means that the Roman Rite has a culture. The Byzantine Rite has a culture, the Alexandrian, the East Syrian and so forth and so on. These various Catholic cultures share many things, but they are unique, distinct from each other and from the outside world, and they are both counter-cultural and intercultural, in that they simultaneously reject and blend with the regional cultures of the world.

Here is a suggestion for those Protestant converts and even those cradle Catholics who tend toward the liberal spectrum and/or have an affinity for modern-style music and/or have a revulsion toward Gregorian chant, sacred polyphony, Latin, and/or the organ, and/or don’t believe there are “Catholic cultures”. I have already mentioned that the Book of Revelation is incredibly important and relevant to both liturgy and marriage, and that you should undergo a Catholic Bible study to find out why and how. I also exhort you to read Church documents and to read the classics such as the ECFs, Augustine, Aquinas, and so forth. This is why:

I have been immersed in Catholic culture of the Roman Rite since my infant baptism, the anniversary of which I will celebrate in two weeks. While my experience of the culture was localized and limited to a couple mostly progressive parishes and Catholic schools, I essentially knew no other faith tradition while growing up. I left the Church. When I came back in AD 2000, I was doing my research online. I found communities of “other types” of Catholics who were attached to Traditional Roman Rite Culture. I saw that this was a good thing and I yearned for an even stronger attachment to all the cultural things which make Romans unique, because we are exhorted to “be in the world, but not of the world.” (cf. Romans 12:2). Therefore I resolved to undertake the mission of evangelizing Roman Catholic Culture to atheists, pagans, and lukewarm Catholics, because Catholicism has things to offer that no other culture does. Eternal things, spiritual things, yes, but also temporal goods, concretely observable things which exemplify Truth and Beauty.

Now in order to be immersed in Roman Rite Culture, you have to understand the mind of the Church. I received this implicitly in my Catholic education. I confess that I was never encouraged or even forced to read Church documents or classics, and I still have read far too few. But these documents are the ones which form our culture, which influence and inform it. A cradle Catholic who went to public school and doesn’t attend daily Mass, or a Protestant convert who hasn’t had previous contact with Catholicism, they will not understand Roman Rite Culture too well and they will have misunderstandings and not grasp how Catholicism has been opposed to Protestantism since its inception, and Catholics have always striven to distinguish their culture apart from Protestants, and why this is important to do, even in the face of advanced ecumenism and cooperation and fellowship between the ecclesial communities and the Church, which I must insist is very good and commendable and bitterness between them must diminish.

Now I will leave you with a small taste of Matthew Kelly’s favorite Vatican II document, Gaudium et Spes, and then a quote from Paul VI’s address to artists at the close of Vatican II.
Gaudium et Spes #62:

…Efforts must be made so that those who foster these arts feel that the Church recognizes their activity and so that, enjoying orderly liberty, they may initiate more friendly relations with the Christian community. The Church acknowledges also new forms of art which are adapted to our age and are in keeping with the characteristics of various nations and regions. They may be brought into the sanctuary since they raise the mind to God, once the manner of expression is adapted and they are conformed to liturgical requirements.(13)

(emphasis mine)
Paul VI:

The Church has long since joined in alliance with you. You have built and adorned her temples, celebrated her dogmas, enriched her liturgy. You have aided her in translating her divine message in the language of forms and figures, making the invisible world palpable. Today, as yesterday, the Church needs you and turns to you. She tells you through our voice: Do not allow an alliance as fruitful as this to be broken. Do not refuse to put your talents at the service of divine truth. Do not close your mind to the breath of the Holy Spirit.

This world in which we live needs beauty in order not to sink into despair. It is beauty, like truth, which brings joy to the heart of man and is that precious fruit which resists the wear and tear of time, which unites generations and makes them share things in admiration. And all of this is through your hands. May these hands be pure and disinterested. Remember that you are the guardians of beauty in the world. May that suffice to free you from tastes which are passing and have no genuine value, to free you from the search after strange or unbecoming expressions. Be always and everywhere worthy of your ideals and you will be worthy of the Church which, by our voice, addresses to you today her message of friendship, salvation, grace and benediction.

(emphasis mine)

 

[Elizium23]

(link to Paul VI’s Address to Artists in Rome, 12/8/65)

For the record, I have very little objection left to stand on in specific regards to “How Beautiful”. The lyrics are indeed beautiful as related by Cat. The melody grates against my personal preferences in some ways and that is why I insisted it was hard to sing and not adaptable for choral use. But I would be glad to hear a choral arrangement of the tune sung in four parts by a large choir or assembly. It could well change my mind entirely. But if I had my druthers I would simply never use a song less than 200 years old unless it were composed and approved directly by the Church’s competent authorities. Music and any other kind of art which has withstood the test of time is the best art. There always has to be someone to consume and promote modern art, because otherwise how can it be accepted? But I don’t feel like the Sacred Liturgy should be the place for experimentation, or the place where non-Catholic theologies are showcased merely because they have catchy tunes (I’m thinking less of Twila Paris and more of Nativity parish in Timonium.)

I have a confession to make. In my 29 years as a musician I have never sung sacred polyphony and I have never been in a schola cantorum that sang Gregorian chant or plainchant. I grew up on folk Masses exclusively. I remember one single Mass in my early youth where organ was played, and that is it until AD 2000 when I again found myself in a very liberal parish with an OCP choir. Then we went to CCM and I eventually left to go to another parish where I found, guess what, CCM! In fact the director was a rising CCM composer and performer. Then I moved parishes again nine years ago, and found… CCM. Then we used OCP and then reverted to GIA’s Gather for a while; after that we purchased the Lumen Christi Missal which was promptly jettisoned in favor of OCP which we use to this day. However I have had brief encounters along the way with Beautiful music. Singing in Latin is not totally foreign to these choirs, nor is a little bit of chant. Since 2008 my home parish has expanded use of their electronic organ to good effect, although the grand piano is still retained. In my visiting parish, we have a grand old pipe organ that was loved/hated by a director who was very traditional. We had a great Christmas music program and the flavor of our repertoire was like a very high-church Anglican parish, with heavy use of the Adoremus hymnal.

The Church’s love for banal contemporary music is like a battered spouse’s love for her abusive husband. No matter how she is mistreated, disrespected, or injured by the guy, she can’t give him up because he keeps telling her that he loves her and once in a while they have a day that isn’t bad. Trying to give up banal contemporary music is like fleeing in the night with the clothes on your back and baby in a stroller and trying to find a homeless shelter in the dark in a drug-dealer infested neighborhood. Giving up contemporary music, as a pastor, will make your parishioners hate you and attack you viciously, they will withdraw their donations and write angry letters to the bishop and even unto Rome. There is truly something Satanic in the attachment to these styles of music because of the anger and hatred that comes from supporters when they don’t get their way. Therefore I shall pray fervently, as we do after each Mass:

St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against wickedness and snares of the Devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the Divine Power of God, cast into Hell Satan and all the evil spirits who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.

 

[felsguy]

A cradle Catholic who went to public school and doesn’t attend daily Mass, or a Protestant convert who hasn’t had previous contact with Catholicism, they will not understand Roman Rite Culture too well and they will have misunderstandings and not grasp how Catholicism has been opposed to Protestantism since its inception

A number of personal acquaintenances of mine in these categories would disagree with the statement above and a couple might even say “nonsense”

I myself, in yet a third category, could agree with the statements below only if they included I addtiions I have made

and some Catholics have always striven to distinguish their culture apart from Protestants,

and -]why/-] IMO this is important to do, even in the face of advanced ecumenism and cooperation and fellowship between the ecclesial communities and the Church, which I must insist is very good and commendable and bitterness between them must diminish.

.

 

[pnewton]

Seems like though this song did mirror the old translation. I know if I should hear it in Church, the bishop would be quickly getting a letter from me. As you may have inferred from all my posts, I wasn’t the greatest fan of the new translation (or any English translation, for that matter) but it is what it is.

Perhaps I misunderstand. Are you saying you would write if you heard a song with the wrong words in place of the GIRM (as in the old Gloria)? If so, that is understandable. Elsewhere, other hymns may be used and there are not set formulas or words to be used. An entrance or exit hymn may, for example, refer to “peace on Earth.” It does not need to say “peace to people of goodwill”.

 

[pnewton]

Here is a suggestion for those Protestant converts and even those cradle Catholics who tend toward the liberal spectrum and/or have an affinity for modern-style music and/or have a revulsion toward Gregorian chant, sacred

The Church’s love for banal contemporary music is like a battered spouse’s love for her abusive husband. No matter how she is mistreated, disrespected, or injured by the guy, she can’t give him up because he keeps telling her that he loves her and once in a while they have a day that isn’t bad. Trying to give up banal contemporary music is like fleeing in the night with the clothes on your back and baby in a stroller and trying to find a homeless shelter in the dark in a drug-dealer infested neighborhood.

Music is not about being a “liberal” or a battered spouse. The Catholic Church grants latitude not to accommodate dysfunction, but to minister to people of different backgrounds, tastes and cultures. Thus, we have decision made locally to minister to the people locally. No one can know what is best everywhere which is why the Church does not overly regiment such issues and allows the bishops and priests to implement the liturgy.

The danger of a world wide internet is that it tempts us to take our own opinions and present them as a model to others where such models are not useful. I think it is good to exchange ideas. I think it borders on intimidation to label other opinions (on music of all things!) as liberal or like a battered spouse.

 

[ProVobis]

Perhaps I misunderstand. Are you saying you would write if you heard a song with the wrong words in place of the GIRM (as in the old Gloria)? If so, that is understandable. Elsewhere, other hymns may be used and there are not set formulas or words to be used. An entrance or exit hymn may, for example, refer to “peace on Earth.” It does not need to say “peace to people of goodwill”.

I think “Let there be peace on earth” is a long accepted hymn, which I don’t see any problem with. It hardly delves into Mass texts and has an easy-to-remember tune one can even hum or whistle to, not that that should be a criteria for a song in Church. Just sayin.

That said, I just posted on the possibility of still a newer translation. Or maybe it will be left to individual bishops what they want to use. So I might have to take back the things I said about the sacrificial aspect of the song. But if I were writing music (or even poetry) I think I wouldn’t try to do better than the Mass texts, whether in Latin or in English. OTOH, Arinze did say something about liturgically rooted so I wouldn’t know where to begin if I were a song writer. Seems like he has placed some pretty tough constraints on music.

 

[pnewton]

I finally thought of a good example, because it goes not only back to the old translation, but back before Vatican II and back over a century.

O Lord I am not Worthy that Thou should come to me
But speak the word of comfort, my spirit healed shall be.

Note how this does not match any of the translations ever used in Mass. Yet I know of none who would say it is unsuitable. I am more from a language background than music, so I think that is why I am not bothered by this. Literal translations are not better than dynamic translations. They are different and serve different purposes. For the words of the missal, the Church has decided that following Latin as literally as possible is to be the rule. This is not better (or worse). It does keep us more unified. It also sounds more stilted, that is the trade off.

Music on the other hand can be seen as having the opposite goal. It needs to flow poetically and be adaptable to the people it serves. Cardinal Arinze says music needs to be rooted in liturgy, not mirror liturgy. I think the above example gives us a clear example of a song rooted in a specific portion of the liturgy, but speaks more to the heart than the head. We need both.

On a side note, the above is one of my favorite hymns; one I learned from a dear old Catholic since gone to here rest, as it was her favorite for daily Mass.

hymnary.org/text/o_lord_i_am_not_worthy

 

[Elizium23]

Music is not about being a “liberal” or a battered spouse. The Catholic Church grants latitude not to accommodate dysfunction, but to minister to people of different backgrounds, tastes and cultures. Thus, we have decision made locally to minister to the people locally. No one can know what is best everywhere which is why the Church does not overly regiment such issues and allows the bishops and priests to implement the liturgy.

The danger of a world wide internet is that it tempts us to take our own opinions and present them as a model to others where such models are not useful. I think it is good to exchange ideas. I think it borders on intimidation to label other opinions (on music of all things!) as liberal or like a battered spouse.

Yes it is. It’s the Church of Nice which says that all things are equal and to each his own and there are no universal truths or objective metrics for determining Truth and Beauty.

I think what is bordering on intimidation is for you and Cat to attack me personally as well as my debating technique rather than focusing on the issues. I think that bordering on willful disobedience and detraction is to hold to opinions that pooh-pooh the ideas held in Church documents and Sacred Tradition that certain types of art are better than other types while the types of art you are defending are novel, banal, and foreign to Roman Rite Culture.

 

[ProVobis]

Music on the other hand can be seen as having the opposite goal. It needs to flow poetically and be adaptable to the people it serves. Cardinal Arinze says music needs to be rooted in liturgy, not mirror liturgy. I think the above example gives us a clear example of a song rooted in a specific portion of the liturgy, but speaks more to the heart than the head. We need both.

Actually you picked a good example of what works well under his constraints. It is musically acceptable IMO because of the rhyme and meter. It has a 7-6-7-6 syllable* format (which very few will notice, I know) and the melody is memorable without being too catchy. The choice of words isn’t too bad either.

• I knew one day those required humanities courses at the university would be worth something some day. We pray/march in cadences. We sing in syllables.

 

[pnewton]

Yes it is. It’s the Church of Nice which says that all things are equal and to each his own and there are no universal truths or objective metrics for determining Truth and Beauty.

I do not know what that has to do with this thread. Objective Truth is not the topic and has no more to do with this issue than does “liberals”. No one here doubts objective truth. However, I do not accept anyone’s opinion as objective truth, including my own. But there is no “Church of Nice”, except mabe in France. There is only the Catholic Church. I know Voris came up with this as an insult, despite Galations 2:22 plainly stating:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

It is walking as Jesus to be “nice”.

I think what is bordering on intimidation is for you and Cat to attack me personally

I did not. I could not. I do not know you personally. It is the name-calling that I object to as exceeding that with the Catholic Church directs.

I think that bordering on willful disobedience and detraction is to hold to opinions that pooh-pooh the ideas held in Church documents and Sacred Tradition

No one is. That too is only your opinion of pooh-poohing. Your description and labeling is a classic example of begging the question. Is the hymn above banal? Over a century of Catholics have sung it as a way to express their love for the Eucharist. Is the first hymn mentioned banal, that too is an opinion.

It is just as wrong to resort to this sort of labeling as it is to label and stereotype those traditionalist that view their Catholicism as exceeding that of most of the bishops and priests which are currently tasked with the liturgy. Maybe, just maybe one could find oneself fighting against what the Holy Spirit is doing.

 

[pnewton]

It has a 7-6-7-6 syllable* format (which very few will notice, I know) and the melody is memorable without being too catchy. And the choice of words isn’t too bad either.

Awesome! That is good to know. Like I said, language is more my thing.

 

[Elizium23]

Literal translations are not better than dynamic translations. They are different and serve different purposes. For the words of the missal, the Church has decided that following Latin as literally as possible is to be the rule. This is not better (or worse). It does keep us more unified. It also sounds more stilted, that is the trade off.

It is objectively better for use in the Sacred Liturgy to use translation techniques which more accurately convey the objective Truth and objective Beauty of the source texts.

Dynamic equivalence is not bad in and of itself, but the techniques that were used in 1970s ICEL and in many English bibles were sorely deficient and needed much correction. Likewise, there are many literal translations of many things which fail to convey the sense and meaning of ancient source texts to a modern reader or listener.

 

[Cat]

Elizium23, I was with you until the last few paragraphs in which you used the analogy of an abused spouse. What an awful analogy, and so untrue!

And then to invoke St. Michael to “protect us against the wickedness and snares of the devil”–what does this have to do with contemporary Christian music? Do you truly see “evil” in the words to “How Beautiful?” If you do…

Elizium23, you are walking on some very thin ice here. I can certainly appreciate your passion for the subject, and indeed, when it comes to my passion, synchronized skating, I have the same kind of emotional thoughts sometimes. E.g., today, while we were watching Stars on Ice, featuring our 2014 Olympic team, I had an angry outburst wondering why synchronized skating is still not included in this touring show.

But here’s what you need to wrap your head around, Elizium23: Honest–there are many intelligent, well-catechized, and deeply-faith filled people who truly love contemporary Christian music and also the 40-50 year old hymns (sometimes called "St. Louis Jesuit music) that some Catholics insist on calling “modern music”.

These people are not being “snared” in any way, and their attachment to this music isn’t “Satanic.”

I’m one of these people. If I were asked to “give it up”, I would be sad, but I wouldn’t write the bishop and withdraw my donations and do all kinds of other unseemingly things… I don’t think most Catholics would do this. Of course there would be a few.

If the more contemporary Christian music was replaced with traditional Catholic hymns, I think most people in our diocese would be just fine with that.

If it were replaced with Gregorian chant and other forms of chant, and also “polyphony”, I think that many people simply wouldn’t sing, not because of a bad attitude, but because they really don’t know how to sing this kind of music. Perhaps if the people were trained in how to sing it, they would join in, but I think this is impractical, especially when a parish has several thousand people who need that training. So most people would just not sing, and listen only. And I think that this would probably result in people asking–not demanding–if they could please have some singable music back again.

I don’t see this happening. When we consider the history of the Christian Church, I think that it’s unrealistic to expect Christians to stand mute. Christians have always sung, and I think that if the music is not something that the people are capable of singing, they would be unhappy, and that’s not the same as saying that their attachment is “Satanic.”

BTW, are you able to use say “contemporary Christian music” without qualifying it with the word “banal?” I think it would be a good thing if you would learn, or at least make it clear that it is your opinion that CCM is “banal.” When you constantly label as “banal” the music that decent Catholic people like and bishops continue to allow in the Catholic hymnals–well, you’re not winning friends and influencing people. Actually, you are influencing them–to listen to you with skepticism.

I am extremely blessed to live in a diocese where the parishes, including my parish, include a lovely mix of musical styles in the Mass. Last evening, we had two “traditional” hymns accompanied by a magnificent pipe organ, and two St. Louis Jesuit hymns accompanied by a beautiful piano. The Psalm was chanted, as it usually is. and accompanied by organ (very simple accompaniment).

If I had attended the Sunday evening Mass, I would have heard some of the latest in contemporary Christian music. I like this Mass, but it’s not a convenient time for me.

And if I had attended the early morning Mass this morning (Sunday), I would have heard no music at all. There are many people who prefer this.

And if I had attended the “Family Mass,” I would have heard the mixed age choir singing both traditional and contemporary hymns.

And if I had attended the Latin Mass in the church downtown, I would have heard a Latin Mass setting and Gregorian chant.

I am indeed blessed! I wish that you could have this richness in Mass music. I would gladly attend a music-less Mass for the rest of my earthly life if it would bring about an end to the “music wars” in the Church.

 

[Elizium23]

Walking on very thin ice? Exactly what are you going to do about it? Reach up from below and pull me in???

 

[pnewton]

“Now his older son was in the field. And as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and because he has received him safe and sound, your father has killed the fatted calf.’
28 “But he was angry and would not go in. Therefore his father came out and pleaded with him. 29 So he answered and said to his father, ‘Lo, these many years I have been serving you; I never transgressed your commandment at any time; and yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might make merry with my friends. 30 But as soon as this son of yours came, who has devoured your livelihood with harlots, you killed the fatted calf for him.’
31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”

And

8 “So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’ 9 And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius. 11 And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner, 12 saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’ 13 But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’ 16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”

Whether one is a cradle Catholic or a convert should not even be an issue. It is ad hominem and parallels what happened in the first generation of the Church.

 

[Cat]

Elizium23, I have no wish to hurt you and I don’t want you to feel attacked, so I have deleted my post.

 

[Miserissima]

OP,

Two suggestions for ideas. The first is Catholicmusicexpress.com. You can find great stuff there by a great range of folks, from great choirs to Mark Mallett’s “Faustina’s Song.”

Second, go to Google Books and do a search for “Catholic hymnal.” They have some really old, obscure stuff.(That’s how I found music for All Souls Day once). I learned one of my favorite hymns, “Just As I Am.” It may be possible to look through these scanned books just for inspirational lyrics.

It may also behoove you to go to Amazon.com and Dion a search for “Catholic Music.” Guitar Hymns, David Phillips, Catholic Music Project, and “Best of New Catholic Music” by the Rocking Romans are good starts.

Just be sure to make sure it’s liturgically correct by running it through your pastor or DLM. You have to change tempos or make minor adjustments…and most music for piano can be found on musicnotes.com.

Let me know if I can help further.