Music Director desperate for answers

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breetv

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Please help if you can.
I am very grateful to all of you for your wealth of knowledge which has been so helpful, as I have searched the threads for answers to my various questions.
I apologize if I am posting in the wrong place, or if these topics have been covered before.
  1. Where is it stated that the Gloria must be sung through (as it would be read) as opposed to it being sung with a “refrain” and “verses”?
  2. What is the deal with the Psalms?! :confused: (SO confused here). Are psalm settings like the ones in Gather and OCP (as opposed to the semi-chanted ones from the Respond and Acclaim booklet) allowed to be used even when they do not follow EXACTLY the words in the missalette? Must all verses be sung?
  3. Similar question with the Gospel verse for the Alleluia. Do we have to use the EXACT words from the missalette? ie with the Celtic Alleluia, can we use the verses written to go with that setting? Is it allowed to use a ‘generic’ verse, like the first one from the Celtic (“Father, we praise you as Lord…”)?
I know many have personal preferences (as do I), but I am really looking here for the “official” answers, so that I can be better informed on behalf of my Pastor and parish.

Sorry to be so lengthy…and thanks in advance!
 
The only answers I can give are:
  1. In our parish, we sing a refrain (“Glory to God in the highest, and peace to his people on earth; glory to God in the highest, and peace to his people on earth.”) at certain points in singing the Gloria.
  2. You might get better help by contacting the Music Director in a neighboring parish, preferably one with a lot of experience.
 
jpjd said:
The only answers I can give are:
  1. In our parish, we sing a refrain (“Glory to God in the highest, and peace to his people on earth; glory to God in the highest, and peace to his people on earth.”) at certain points in singing the Gloria.
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I just cannot stand the version that has this refrain: “Glory to God, glory to God, Glory to God in the highest. Glory to God, glory to God, and peace to His people, His people on earth.” It sounds like a broken record.:eek:
 
Ahhh - the music director - always searching. Hope I can help. These are based on my experiences as cantor.
  1. Gloria - when sung - it is written as refrain and versus and should be done that way. Many OCP (Oregon Catholic Press) music for the Gloria is written that way - so I have to believe it is liturgically correct to have the congregation join in the refrains.
  2. Psalms - that’s a fun one. Not every psalm has a melody set to it. The missal uses the text in chant form as a minimum form. However, OCP books like the Gather book have Psalms and text liturgically approved and can be used for those Psalms even though the wording slightly different (for the melody’s sake) than the missal text. General rule is to sing 3 verses minimum and have congregation join in on the refrain.
  3. Gospel Alleluia - again different options are available for different liturgical seasons and settings. It should be a restatement in some form of the text being used that day but several options are available.
Also suggest you visit another music director in your parish (main cathedral if you have one) or look up a group called National Association of Pastoral Musicians. They have lots of information that is liturgically sound. Good Luck and make a joyful noise to the Lord.
 
ltbpoe43 said:
Also suggest you visit another music director in your parish (main cathedral if you have one) or look up a group called National Association of Pastoral Musicians. They have lots of information that is liturgically sound. Good Luck and make a joyful noise to the Lord.
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It is my opinion that NPM is relatively liberal and tends to set its own agenda. This is from several years of using their liturgy guide to select music. I’ve found that if I have the time to review the readings in-depth, I can select more appropriate music for the Mass in question.

Another site I utilize is: canticanova.com/index.html

They seem to be very conservative and “old school” in their approach. It helps me strike a balance between the contemporary overkill of NPM (and they do suggest some good ol’ hymns, but never enough) and the need to sing good ol’ hymns.

I’ll also take Cantica Nova’s word on liturgical decisions (such as what to do with the crowd lines during the Passion) over NPM’s.
 
The GIRM is a great place to start to find the norms for the liturgy
usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml

Here’s the Gloria answer:
<<The Gloria
  1. The Gloria is a very ancient and venerable hymn in which the Church, gathered together in the Holy Spirit, glorifies and entreats God the Father and the Lamb. The text of this hymn may not be replaced by any other text. The Gloria is intoned by the priest or, if appropriate, by a cantor or by the choir; but it is sung either by everyone together, or by the people alternately with the choir, or by the choir alone. If not sung, it is to be recited either by all together or by two parts of the congregation responding one to the other.
It is sung or said on Sundays outside the Seasons of Advent and Lent, on solemnities and feasts, and at special celebrations of a more solemn character.>>

Psalms:
<<The Responsorial Psalm
  1. After the first reading comes the responsorial Psalm, which is an integral part of the Liturgy of the Word and holds great liturgical and pastoral importance, because it fosters meditation on the word of God.
The responsorial Psalm should correspond to each reading and should, as a rule, be taken from the Lectionary.

It is preferable that the responsorial Psalm be sung, at least as far as the people’s response is concerned. Hence, the psalmist, or the cantor of the Psalm, sings the verses of the Psalm from the ambo or another suitable place. The entire congregation remains seated and listens but, as a rule, takes part by singing the response, except when the Psalm is sung straight through without a response. In order, however, that the people may be able to sing the Psalm response more readily, texts of some responses and Psalms have been chosen for the various seasons of the year or for the various categories of Saints. These may be used in place of the text corresponding to the reading whenever the Psalm is sung. If the Psalm cannot be sung, then it should be recited in such a way that it is particularly suited to fostering meditation on the word of God.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, the following may also be sung in place of the Psalm assigned in the Lectionary for Mass: either the proper or seasonal antiphon and Psalm from the Lectionary, as found either in the Roman Gradual or Simple Gradual or in another musical setting; or an antiphon and Psalm from another collection of the psalms and antiphons, including psalms arranged in metrical form, providing that they have been approved by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop. Songs or hymns may not be used in place of the responsorial Psalm.>>

Alleluia:
<<62. After the reading that immediately precedes the Gospel, the Alleluia or another chant indicated by the rubrics is sung, as required by the liturgical season. An acclamation of this kind constitutes a rite or act in itself, by which the assembly of the faithful welcomes and greets the Lord who is about to speak to them in the Gospel and professes their faith by means of the chant. It is sung by all while standing and is led by the choir or a cantor, being repeated if this is appropriate. The verse, however, is sung either by the choir or by the cantor.
The Alleluia is sung in every season other than Lent. The verses are taken from the Lectionary or the Graduale.
During Lent, in place of the Alleluia, the verse before the Gospel is sung, as indicated in the Lectionary. It is also permissible to sing another psalm or tract, as found in the Graduale.>>

Hope that helps!
Jennifer
 
breetv said:
  1. What is the deal with the Psalms?! :confused: (SO confused here). Are psalm settings like the ones in Gather and OCP (as opposed to the semi-chanted ones from the Respond and Acclaim booklet) allowed to be used even when they do not follow EXACTLY the words in the missalette? Must all verses be sung?
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I am so grateful that our Bishop published a pastoral letter a couple of years ago following the publication of Redemptionis Sacramentum. Our Bishop’s letter, entitled “Letter to Priests on Celebration of the Liturgy,” laid out the norms for our Diocese in specific detail.

Regarding the Responsorial Psalm, he writes (my emphasis added):

“Since the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist form the Eucharistic Liturgy, due honor must be given to the proclamation of the word of God so that the faithful may then contemplate the Word made Flesh in the Eucharist. The faithful therefore have the right to hear the word proclaimed in its entirety, without alteration. The Readings at all Masses are to be taken from the most recent edition of the Lectionary for Mass. The practice of altering the texts of the readings for any reason is to cease immediately. The Responsorial Psalm is to be given special consideration. Even though it may be sung, the Responsorial Psalm is as much the word of God as the other readings and Gospel. Therefore, the practice of singing a song other than a psalm at this time in the Liturgy of the Word is to cease. Likewise, the practice of using paraphrases of the psalms at this point in the Liturgy is also to cease. Any Responsorial Psalm sung or recited in the Liturgy of the Word must conform to the text provided in the Lectionary.”
 
From Liturgiam Authenticam:
  1. On a unified version of the liturgical texts
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  1. It is recommended that there be a single translation of the liturgical books for each vernacular language, brought about by means of coordination among the Bishops of those regions where the same language is spoken.[66] If this proves truly impossible because of the circumstances, the individual Conferences of Bishops, after consultation with the Holy See, may decide either to adapt a previously existing translation or to prepare a new one. In either case, the recognitio of their acts is to be sought from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.
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88. In the case of the Order of Mass and those parts of the Sacred Liturgy that call for the direct participation of the people, a single translation should exist in a given language,[67] unless a different provision is made in individual cases.
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  1. Texts which are common to several Conferences, as mentioned above in nn. 87-88, are ordinarily to be approved by each of the individual Conferences of Bishops which must use them, before the confirmation of the texts is granted by the Apostolic See.[68]
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Obviously, there must be one text, Verse and refrain is not the correct text. If that keeps up then the text ends up all over the place left to the whim of any composer that wants to mess with it. (which is probably how we got here in the first place)

Joe B
 
breetv said:
…
  1. Where is it stated that the Gloria must be sung through (as it would be read) as opposed to it being sung with a “refrain” and “verses”?..
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I think the Gloria does have a refrain and verses.

In the liturgical book “Ordo cantus Missae” it has:
“3. The hymn Gloria in excelsis is intoned by the priest or, if more convenient, by the cantor. It is sung either by cantors and choir alternating or by two choirs antiphonally. The division of the verses indicated by a double line in the Graduale need not be followed, if a better division, compatible with the music, is devised.”
(Documents on the Liturgy 1963-1979, Liturgical Press, Minnesota, 1982, ISBN 0-8146-1281-4, page 1345).

The 2002 Roman Missal refers to the Graduale as a source of other tones for the Gloria:
“Toni integri in Graduali romano inveniuntur.”
(Missale Romanum, Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 2002, ISBN: 8820972719, page 509. Order of Mass, n. 8)
I think this means something like: “Whole tones in the Roman Gradual may be used.”

I do not have a copy of the Roman Gradual. It sounds like there is a refrain and verses, but I am not sure.

Regarding the Psalm, from the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :

“61. … In the dioceses of the United States of America, the following may also be sung in place of the Psalm assigned in the Lectionary for Mass: either the proper or seasonal antiphon and Psalm from the Lectionary, as found either in the Roman Gradual or Simple Gradual or in another musical setting; or an antiphon and Psalm from another collection of the psalms and antiphons, including psalms arranged in metrical form, providing that they have been approved by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop. Songs or hymns may not be used in place of the responsorial Psalm.”

It seems to me that the Vatican is allowing, for the USA, that a diocesan bishop can approve a number of translations of the psalms that can be used. I think “another collection of the psalms” means “another translation of the psalms”.

The GIRM approved for England and Wales does not have this provision, but simply:

“61. … The following may also be sung in place of the Psalm assigned in the Lectionary:either the responsorial gradual from the Graduale Romanum, or the responsorial psalm
or the Alleluia psalm from the Graduale Simplex, in the form described in these books.”
(This GIRM is at catholic-ew.org.uk ).
 
ltbpoe43 said:
  1. Gloria - when sung - it is written as refrain and versus and should be done that way. Many OCP (Oregon Catholic Press) music for the Gloria is written that way - so I have to believe it is liturgically correct to have the congregation join in the refrains.
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Legislation on sacred music is very hard to track down, so I don’t want the following advice to imply that refrained Glorias are certainly unacceptable, but I have to warn that the fact of a practice being widespread - even the practical norm - in US parish life has absolutely no connection to whether it is licit or not. That’s just the sad reality. It doesn’t have to stem from bad intentions, people just pick up practices in good faith without knowing they are illicit and before you know it they have spread everywhere. Even coming from “reputable” or “standard” composers is no guarantee of respect for liturgical norms; actually, composers of liturgical music have probably been some of the most consistent and pertinacious flaunters of norms.
 
John_Lilburne said:
I think the Gloria does have a refrain and verses.

In the liturgical book “Ordo cantus Missae” it has:
“3. The hymn Gloria in excelsis is intoned by the priest or, if more convenient, by the cantor. It is sung either by cantors and choir alternating or by two choirs antiphonally. The division of the verses indicated by a double line in the Graduale need not be followed, if a better division, compatible with the music, is devised.”
(Documents on the Liturgy 1963-1979, Liturgical Press, Minnesota, 1982, ISBN 0-8146-1281-4, page 1345).
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The verses referred to need not indicate the sort of thing the OP indicated with a refrain breaking up the verses. Rather, since antiphonal singing is an option, the verses would merely be indicators of where to divide parts I and II. The Gloria could proceed exactly according to the text in the missal (with no repetitions or transmutations, one word following another and nothing more) and verses would assign the singing of certain segments of that exact text to one group or another.
 
I would suggest that the OP not spend too much money buying mass settings until the new translations for English masses are (name removed by moderator)lemented. My understanding is the changes are coming in the next year or so, but the text has already been released by Rome. It is supposed to be closer to the Latin than the current translation.
 
Andreas_Hofer said:
The verses referred to need not indicate the sort of thing the OP indicated with a refrain breaking up the verses. Rather, since antiphonal singing is an option, the verses would merely be indicators of where to divide parts I and II. The Gloria could proceed exactly according to the text in the missal (with no repetitions or transmutations, one word following another and nothing more) and verses would assign the singing of certain segments of that exact text to one group or another.
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Yes Indeed there are appropriate settings quite like that. The other type refrain/verse put into practice in many places typifies the idea that you can shuffle the text and repeat a certain section. Unfortunately that is not the intent to pursue as typified under LA. Doing so alters the text. You would NEVER translate it into that manner…

Joe B
 
Given all these posts, interpretations, guidance, and warnings - it’s very easy to see how a Music Director is “desperate for answers” as stated in the original post. Lot’s of good discussion and references here from all.

Don’t pull your hair out OP just do the best you can as we all do to our own abilities. God Bless your efforts and may you always sing with a joyful heart.
 
breetv said:
  1. Similar question with the Gospel verse for the Alleluia. Do we have to use the EXACT words from the missalette? ie with the Celtic Alleluia, can we use the verses written to go with that setting? Is it allowed to use a ‘generic’ verse, like the first one from the Celtic (“Father, we praise you as Lord…”)?
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Why do so many lay people and priests feel the need to change the words in the Roman Missal at Mass?

Isn’t what’s written good enough for them? I for one would love to never have to hear a word changed ever again. It wouldn’t bother me one bit.

Maybe once and for all the Church should state that the Roman Missal is only a guide and henceforth anyone is allowed to change it anyway they please. Then we wouldn’t have all of these discussions.

Mass would become no more than a free form Protestant type of worship. This seems to satisfy a lot of Catholics better than following a rigid old Missal anyway.
 
Because the psalm “you are a priest forever, in the order of malchizedek” is impossible to write music to, and just makes you giggle trying.

THe translation given is sometimes great, sometimes awful. Trying to compose singable transcending music to the text can be next to impossible.

This doesn’t make it right to change the words, but we don’t sing how King David sang.
 
agapewolf said:
Because the psalm “you are a priest forever, in the order of malchizedek” is impossible to write music to, and just makes you giggle trying.

THe translation given is sometimes great, sometimes awful. Trying to compose singable transcending music to the text can be next to impossible.

This doesn’t make it right to change the words, but we don’t sing how King David sang.
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You don’t have to compose anything. Learn a few simple plain chant tones that you can use with any text. They’re so easy for the congregation to follow.
 
agapewolf said:
Because the psalm “you are a priest forever, in the order of malchizedek” is impossible to write music to, and just makes you giggle trying.
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I hate to say it, but Owen Aslott actually did a good job of this in the OCP Respond and Acclaim book. Oh wait, now that I think about it, he changed it to “in the line of Malchizedek.” Sorry, my bad. Or his bad. Someone’s bad. Meh, I just use Gather and don’t fret about it.
 
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