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DiZent
Guest
Thankfully, this one is on the shelf and I hope we don’t have to do it next year. What on earth does the phoenix rising from the ashes (last verse) have to do with Christianity?
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ericka1701
Guest
Oy vey, I’m kinda scared. A few people at my parish mentioned that they didn’t really have a choir director, and, well, a thought has formed that I might try it. I’m a traditionalist when it comes to music (for instance, if it was first written in another language, I prefer it being sung in that language… Adeste Fidelis and Stille Nacht comes to mind right off the bat), and the people that sing the choir seem to prefere the more contemporary music. Synthasizers absolutely drives me batty in church (but I am a fan of Emerson, Lake and Palmer, so I don’t hate them in general).
I went to Christmas “Midnight Mass” (at 10pm) and they sung alot of hymns (with canned music) and “The Little Drummer Boy” was a duet. I can’t imagine them singing harmony, but who knows, maybe someone just hasn’t really worked with them yet. I ask for prayers while I weigh this decision… Pretty please??
God Bless!
Ericka
I went to Christmas “Midnight Mass” (at 10pm) and they sung alot of hymns (with canned music) and “The Little Drummer Boy” was a duet. I can’t imagine them singing harmony, but who knows, maybe someone just hasn’t really worked with them yet. I ask for prayers while I weigh this decision… Pretty please??
God Bless!
Ericka
J
JPUSC
Guest
By “canned music,” do you mean recorded music? I think that’s not allowed.Oy vey, I’m kinda scared. A few people at my parish mentioned that they didn’t really have a choir director, and, well, a thought has formed that I might try it. I’m a traditionalist when it comes to music (for instance, if it was first written in another language, I prefer it being sung in that language… Adeste Fidelis and Stille Nacht comes to mind right off the bat), and the people that sing the choir seem to prefere the more contemporary music. Synthasizers absolutely drives me batty in church (but I am a fan of Emerson, Lake and Palmer, so I don’t hate them in general).
I went to Christmas “Midnight Mass” (at 10pm) and they sung alot of hymns (with canned music) and “The Little Drummer Boy” was a duet. I can’t imagine them singing harmony, but who knows, maybe someone just hasn’t really worked with them yet. I ask for prayers while I weigh this decision… Pretty please??
God Bless!
Ericka
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ericka1701
Guest
Yes, it was… Technically, it was a floppy disk that was put in an electric organ. We don’t have a full time pianist, either, and I think that everyone who plays either piano or guitar (shudder) lives out of town and they were visiting home for Christmas (I live in East TN, and there are many people who live part time down here from Ohio). I was stupid a couple a years ago and quit playing piano. I’ve only taken it back up this past May… I got really bad again, and I haven’t felt comfortable enough to play in public yet, but I think that I’m just going to have to take a leap of faith. I’m actually am going to play piano with everyone for a few Sundays pretty soon, I hope. There is no one that schedules the instrumentalists, so there have actually been Sunday Masses that had either a capella or no singing at all. I don’t feel qualified at all to take over, but I do want to help the best that I can.
God Bless!
Ericka
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iblessem
Guest
“If I come eating and drinking you call me a gluton and drunkard”
“If I come neither eating nor drinking you call me another name”
Get over it, Jesus can do his work through you and me in any medium. He is Lord and Savior and he works through all the laws of the universe, including music.
If you have a hangup about certain kinds of music at mass, look within yourself and discover why. Do you think it is disrespectful of our Lord Jesus? Or what? God created music. He gave us our creative ability to praise him in so many different ways. It is not the song, but the heart that Christ desires. If you truly love Christ and sing one song, is it not better than the hypocrite that sings the accepted song, but has the heart of a scribe or Pharisee?
I love You All,
iblessem
“If I come neither eating nor drinking you call me another name”
Get over it, Jesus can do his work through you and me in any medium. He is Lord and Savior and he works through all the laws of the universe, including music.
If you have a hangup about certain kinds of music at mass, look within yourself and discover why. Do you think it is disrespectful of our Lord Jesus? Or what? God created music. He gave us our creative ability to praise him in so many different ways. It is not the song, but the heart that Christ desires. If you truly love Christ and sing one song, is it not better than the hypocrite that sings the accepted song, but has the heart of a scribe or Pharisee?
I love You All,
iblessem
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Sarabande
Guest
I agree that God can speak to us through many kinds of music. I’m spiritually inspired almost every time I perform music or hear a performance of music in either a secular or sacred venue whether it is secular or sacred. At the same time, I want to follow what the Church wants for mass.
As a musician, I know a lot of musicians who play their instruments or sing in churches, although are not particularlily of any faith. They don’t understand why a movement from an opera or a ballet, for example, can’t be played in a church. They believe that all music is spiritual and doesn’t need to have rules about it for mass. Although I also believe that one can get much out of music spiritually because I love music so much, I also know that the Church says it’s inappropriate because it’s not sacred music.
There is so much beautiful and appropriate sacred music that is acceptable for the Church from throughout the centuries, I can be just as inspired during mass as I am outside of mass.
This is not about hypocrites, unless you are assuming without knowing any of the people on these boards, that they are all hypocrites. It’s unfair to call them such. None of us knows what is in their hearts. For many they want the best that can be given to God during mass and also follow what the Church says. They don’t want people to just add things in because they like it. Hey I love opera. I’m an opera singer. Before I sing I always talk to God and pray to Him, thanking Him. I feel so much of His love pouring through me many times when I perform. I sing for Him, for the music and for the people watching and hearing me. Does that mean I should sing operatic arias or sing with a very operatic voice while at mass? No, I can sing just as well and with just as much love and with just as much of His love pouring through me, when singing a sacred piece of music refined for mass or with less of an operatic voice. There is no reason to sing like that because I’m not on a stage and the music is not written to be performed in that way.
And, no, I also don’t assume what is in the hearts of those perform secular styles of music. I know a few of them and their hearts are in the right places. Many of them were just raised in the same generation as I with the belief that anything, as long as religious words are attached to them, is ok. And yes, they’re ok for outside of mass, but during mass, it’s not appropriate. But whatever.
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iblessem
Guest
Only that person’s heart would really know if they were a hypocrite or not. I would never call anyone on a Liturgical Music board ,a hypocrite, since they are serving in good conscience.
What I do believe after more than 30 years in Liturgical music is that I have seen Jesus work miracles through music… period. And it isn’t just Gregorian chant that he works. I have seen his work through many different kinds of music and people. The key, in my experience, is the person. If they truly have the love of Christ foremost in their hearts, then Christ works through them.
For example, this evening a young college student that sings in our group came home from college to join us again. She moved to a western state college that always votes democratic and is known to be very liberal in politics. She is a minority and is used to Central California Conservative multicultural attitudes. She is conservative in politics as are many people are in the poorer counties of California.
At her new college she couldn’t believe how many times the white liberals[very white western state] that always vote democratic persecuted her for being a person of color.
“Wow,” she said, “I have so many experiences that my eyes are opened!” She was a democrat and believed that democrats were for minority rights and supported her Catholic roots; until she moved to a Northwestern state that was super liberal.
She now feels many people of that state are hypocrites. Not because of the music they sing, but because they vote for liberal policies, but in their daily lives they treat minorities poorly, even though they vote for them…WEIRD
I believe that music is much the same. We have approved music, but when it was written this new music was discerned and through the test of time the good supportive music survived and became standard. The uninspired music was for a time used, but couldn’t sustain the spirit of God’s people and was discarded. So it will be today. God loves us and watches over us. It will be the people of good will that will determine what music is inspired that modern artists write. People that say this music is good, but live lives that are not inspired, will not influence sacred music. It has been that way for 2,000 years
Amen
What I do believe after more than 30 years in Liturgical music is that I have seen Jesus work miracles through music… period. And it isn’t just Gregorian chant that he works. I have seen his work through many different kinds of music and people. The key, in my experience, is the person. If they truly have the love of Christ foremost in their hearts, then Christ works through them.
For example, this evening a young college student that sings in our group came home from college to join us again. She moved to a western state college that always votes democratic and is known to be very liberal in politics. She is a minority and is used to Central California Conservative multicultural attitudes. She is conservative in politics as are many people are in the poorer counties of California.
At her new college she couldn’t believe how many times the white liberals[very white western state] that always vote democratic persecuted her for being a person of color.
“Wow,” she said, “I have so many experiences that my eyes are opened!” She was a democrat and believed that democrats were for minority rights and supported her Catholic roots; until she moved to a Northwestern state that was super liberal.
She now feels many people of that state are hypocrites. Not because of the music they sing, but because they vote for liberal policies, but in their daily lives they treat minorities poorly, even though they vote for them…WEIRD
I believe that music is much the same. We have approved music, but when it was written this new music was discerned and through the test of time the good supportive music survived and became standard. The uninspired music was for a time used, but couldn’t sustain the spirit of God’s people and was discarded. So it will be today. God loves us and watches over us. It will be the people of good will that will determine what music is inspired that modern artists write. People that say this music is good, but live lives that are not inspired, will not influence sacred music. It has been that way for 2,000 years
Amen
S
Sarabande
Guest
Thank you for explaining your position more. I see better where you were coming from.
And so it is with the rest of sacred and religious music throughout the centuries. Many of the composers from all times were spiritually inspired in their compositions. Some were lousy composers and have since been lost, others were wonderful composers, but their works have also been lost just through time. Then you had/have mediocre, wonderful and brilliant composers, many of who tended to be fairly prolific in their compositions. Some are still being done today in mass. Others are acceptable for mass, but aren’t being done, then still others, are brilliantly composed and may have been spiritually inspired, but after much discernment, it was decided that it wasn’t appropriate for mass - no matter how beautiful and inspired it was.
That is how I feel about 20th c and 21st c. sacred and religious music. I know there is wonderful compositions being written today. I personally know a couple of the composers writing sacred music now. The problem is that for about 40 years, everything has been thrown into the sacred music pot and nothing was looked at with a critical eye immediately, like it was in the past. Some of these composers might have been inspired, but because of how things were going, they may have not been completely directed in what we hear a lot on these forums and from the Church - “profoundly steeped in the sensus ecclesiae”. That’s ok. This happened with compositions in the past and the composers worked to refine their music to make it close to it. And hopefully, these new composers will get themselves in line and balanced. I feel like in recent years, the direction towards the sensus ecclesiae is becoming stronger and believe that we will eventually have more and better compositions immersed in that.
God bless.
I agree with this. As you know, even polyphony was critically watched over and banned for a couple of centuries before it was accepted. The thing that has to be remembered, though, is that almost all of the sacred music which has stood the test of time, had to go through a period of refinement. Polyphonic music in its early days sounded very much like the secular music of their time. That was one of the reasons why it was banned from being done in mass. It wasn’t until the style of sacred polyphonic music was refined so that it didn’t sound like their secular songs, did it become acceptable.
And so it is with the rest of sacred and religious music throughout the centuries. Many of the composers from all times were spiritually inspired in their compositions. Some were lousy composers and have since been lost, others were wonderful composers, but their works have also been lost just through time. Then you had/have mediocre, wonderful and brilliant composers, many of who tended to be fairly prolific in their compositions. Some are still being done today in mass. Others are acceptable for mass, but aren’t being done, then still others, are brilliantly composed and may have been spiritually inspired, but after much discernment, it was decided that it wasn’t appropriate for mass - no matter how beautiful and inspired it was.
That is how I feel about 20th c and 21st c. sacred and religious music. I know there is wonderful compositions being written today. I personally know a couple of the composers writing sacred music now. The problem is that for about 40 years, everything has been thrown into the sacred music pot and nothing was looked at with a critical eye immediately, like it was in the past. Some of these composers might have been inspired, but because of how things were going, they may have not been completely directed in what we hear a lot on these forums and from the Church - “profoundly steeped in the sensus ecclesiae”. That’s ok. This happened with compositions in the past and the composers worked to refine their music to make it close to it. And hopefully, these new composers will get themselves in line and balanced. I feel like in recent years, the direction towards the sensus ecclesiae is becoming stronger and believe that we will eventually have more and better compositions immersed in that.
God bless.
T
Tigg
Guest
So much confusing and contradictory information. Why don’t we just follow what Rome says? I wish I understood about the music. I posted part of this on another thread - it is a recent article published in NOR entitled “Why the Music is so Bad.” Can anyone please tell me if this portion of the article is correct (either during or out of the Advent season.)
• In 1972 the American bishops issued a document entitled “Music in Catholic Worship” which completely ignores Musicam Sacram. It states that music, far from having a universality, should have a home town flavor. It states that music ought to be in the hands of non-musicians, chosen by committee and it should be different for different ethnic and age groups, in direct contradiction to Vatican pronouncements.
• In November 2007, the USCCB voted on a revised form of “Music in Catholic Worship.” This revision, entitled “Sing to the Lord” states that Catholics must celebrate their faith in the songs and musical styles of their cultural, ethnic and racial roots.
I appreciate and love good music, but I really wish those in music ministry were more sympathetic to the truth that oftentimes the songs are sung too loudly, or the words are theologically incorrect, or the song is an absolute distraction to prayer (especially after Communion.) Should not the music give glory to our Lord, and at the same time allow us to properly give Thanksgiving for His Body and Blood after reception of the Eucharist?
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benedictgal
Guest
Howver, inasmuch as the documents come from the USCCB, they are merely teaching documents that do not carry the force of law. Sing to the Lord did not pass by the votes necessary for the USCCB to submit to Rome for the necessary recognitio; hence, the document is not binding.
In fact, what was passed is far different than what was proposed, as this power point presentation from the USCCB indicates:
The original document was suposed to have taken these two concerns into consideration:
Furthermore, what the document should have taken into account and further explored was this item, found in the power point:
For those who think that certain groups should be “catered to”, that, in my opinion, is the wrong approach. The music should fit the standards of the Church and not the secular, consumer trends.
For some reason, the CAF system is not letting me post a power point document, but, if you send me a PM, I will email it to you.
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Tigg
Guest
Thank you for this clarification…and you apparently agree with the author of this article who is a professional musician. I pray that the USCCB may be more united and eager in the future to retain the dignity of liturgical music.
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japhy
Guest
The author, Lucy Carroll, writes frequently for the Adoremus Bulletin, so if you are looking for a monthly periodical on the Catholic liturgy which is faithful to the Magisterium of the Church, I suggest checking out www.adoremus.org.
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Tigg
Guest
Oh, I forgot all about this site (used to have it saved somewhere.) Many thanks!
M
MusicMan
Guest
Part of the issue is that it comes down to interpretation – both of the application of the documents and of the lyrics of the hymns.
Furthermore, if we truly followed Rome’s wishes, we would reopen the treasures of chant, but we would be more limited in hymns. There are a great many people who would find such a musical situation unacceptable.
The problem that I am seeing is that the “Rome says THIS” folks seem to think that we should just wake up tomorrow and forgo 500 years of musical evolution and return to strict chant. It won’t happen. However, if we are steady and progressive about it, we can make small changes, and then, some day, our small changes will add up.
I make it a point to use the Chabanel Psalms on Christmas. This year we added the Alleluia chant from their site. I also try to use the Chabanel Psalms throughout the year. When my group is on for a Marian Holy Day, we often sing the Salve Regina. We’re making slow, steady progress at my little church. We still sing hymns, and the occasional contemporary Catholic hymn, but we’re infusing traditional chant. If you threw the switch a year from now, my church could cope. Could yours?
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Tigg
Guest
No, and oh, you have no idea how we suffer around here. I live in a fairly small town and I am totally understanding of the limited resources as a result, but this music thing really has me going. It is absolute lunacy for me to go back to my seat after Communion to pray and have to stifle the urge to cover my ears. I understand exuberance, but please tone it down enough so I may say a simple prayer of thanks to my God.
We moved three years ago from a huge parish (6,000) registered families - very traditional and we had a professional choir director. At Christmas and Easter they hired professional singers. What glory that gave to God! And how much harder to endure the mediocre, sometimes theologically incorrect, off-key guitar twanging blasting from the front of the church, and honestly, that must sound terribly uncharitable and I don’t mean it to be, but that is the reality! Our Mass is sacred and the music means so much…either it is dignified and gives credence to the solemnity of the Mass, or it doesn’t.
I appreciate all the music ministers and know they devote long hours to practice and are just as committed to their ministry as the rest of us. God bless them, for music elevates the soul! (Well……. sometimes, anyway!)
It sounds like you are doing a great job in your parish. And oh, the chant. Part of the article I cited mentioned “Jubiliteo Deo” - I don’t have the spelling correct, but apparently this is another directive not being done in this country. The laity were supposed to learn the basics of chant and it sounds like this is what you are doing. I pray God’s blessing on your endeavors.
I can just imagine how difficult it is to try to please everyone. Perhaps we should just try to please the Lord!
M
MusicMan
Guest
I have several goals:
1.) Select theologically appropriate music will allow and encourage the congregation to glorify God.
2.) Make sure to meet the musical interests of the people, while still meeting #1.
3.) Educate. Much like a priest is a priest wherever he goes, the town band director is still the town band director wherever he goes in the town he teaches in. So I have a duty as an educator to make sure that the students, adults, and musicians in my parish are aware of the musical history of the Church, especially since such history is so tied to Western music.
Chant is an essential part of Western music history. Even if I completely disagree with Rome on the point of primacy of Chant (and I agree with Rome, mind you), I still have a duty as a music educator to teach about it. What better vehicle is there to teach chant in than the Mass!
1.) Select theologically appropriate music will allow and encourage the congregation to glorify God.
2.) Make sure to meet the musical interests of the people, while still meeting #1.
3.) Educate. Much like a priest is a priest wherever he goes, the town band director is still the town band director wherever he goes in the town he teaches in. So I have a duty as an educator to make sure that the students, adults, and musicians in my parish are aware of the musical history of the Church, especially since such history is so tied to Western music.
Chant is an essential part of Western music history. Even if I completely disagree with Rome on the point of primacy of Chant (and I agree with Rome, mind you), I still have a duty as a music educator to teach about it. What better vehicle is there to teach chant in than the Mass!
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