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Operalan
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I wasn’t talking about “seriousness”. I’m talking about ability. Just because one has the hands to be a surgeon does not mean they have the skill, talent, l or aptitude to be an organist. One does not just go out and do anything if the ability is not in them. We have too many people doing that already.I’m pretty sure people are complaining just to complain. I can assure you if someone was complaining about brain surgeons being ignorant and have been influenced by others, I would tell them to become a surgeon and fix it.Learning to play an instrument isn’t as serious as working on the human brain. I promise.
There are entire music programs In universities around the country who have dropped the organ as an instrument that one can major on. Franciscan University in Steubenville has also recently dropped this degree. There aren’t all hat many schools that offer that degree these days. It is an expensive degree for universities to offer and the interest is just not there. Even Catholic Universities are heading more and more towards Contemporary expression. I’d get ready, unfortunately, for more of this rather than less.
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4Squarebaby
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The problem you will face is that many will only become truly gifted on the instrument at about the time churches face the most attrition, by both young students leaving for higher education and/or moving out to start their own homes… You can see that most Protestant Praise Teams are made up of teenagers and middle-agers with a few Bible students and those thinking about going into ministry full-time adding support. The young adults are off doing other things. They may or may not come back. So a big investment will be a long term proposition. Unlike other instruments there is a lessor chance of those trained people keeping up their skills in the meantime.
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bben15
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At my parish, we use a piano. I’d prefer an organ, though.
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aemcpa
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This is why I think the better option is to train organists at the diocesan level.
Exactly. That’s why (in another post in this thread) I mentioned the need for people to give directed financial gifts. By that I mean monetary gifts that are to be applied to a specific purpose, such as the musical education of potential organists.
For a while we had a young man at our parish who had studied piano in university and handled the piano accompaniment for our cantors and choirs. The parish asked him if he would take organ lessons and made the arrangements. He took the lessons and did very well. Then the parish forwarded the bill to him. Ouch.
opcorn: did give that impression… 
attitude about all CAF posts on liturgy and traditional Catholicism. Especially the rerun posts.)
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Cat
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I wouldn’t give up on producing organists.
There are quite a few things you can do, and I wish Catholic churches WOULD do.
One of the things you can do is search for a “Pipe Organ Encounter” near your area, and pay for your pianists (over age 18) to attend. It’s not a costly thing (a few hundred dollars for the actual classes, which go for a week). These POEs are sponsored by the American Guild of Organists, and we have one scheduled in our city for next summer (2014). Pianists learn “Organ 101” at the POEs, and are assigned to a teacher, who will introduce them to the pipe organ. They also are assigned to a “practice organ,” and given several hours a day for practice.
It’s awesome.
Another thing you can do is look for the “Pedals, Pipes, and Pizza” programs, also offered by the AGO. The last one in our city netted us one new teen organ student, the first one in our city in years. We are planning more of these programs, which introduce young pianists (or simply young musicians) to the pipe organ.
A third thing you can do is encourage your parish young pianists to PLAY for Mass! Yes, they might need a lot of help at first, and perhaps they’ll only be able to play for one hymn, or a few Mass parts, or whatever. Or perhaps they can provide preludes or postludes during Ordinary Time. But let them PLAY! This is how they develop a love for accompanying the liturgy.
Also, consider having a yearly recital for all the keyboardists in your parish, and use it to raise money to provide each keyboardist (young) with a small scholarship to be used for their lessons and music.
At this point, you can consider approaching some of the young pianists and asking them and their parents if they would be willing to try to learn how to play the organ. Would your parish be willing to help with the expenses, or at least provide them with the parish organ for practice at no charge?
The organ is kind of like a huge video game, so IMO, if we could just get the word out, kids would be interested in learning! It’s mainly the expense and time that keeps people away from learning the organ. And when Catholic parishes and dioceses don’t pay their organists much, there’s not much motivation to learn, is there?
I hope some of these ideas are helpful to you and others.
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Cat
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Is there a universal understanding of the phrase, “Pride of Place?”
Pride of Place, my friends. Pride of Place.
Some seem to interpret this to mean that certain styles of music and certain instruments must be used all the time, or at least most of the time, in the Mass.
But there are other ways to interpret this phrase. In my house, “pride of place” means that the object is in a locked trophy case and placed on the highest, most inaccessible shelf in the house, and NO ONE goes near it except maybe once a year, when I carefully take it down to proudly display it to the admirers.
In other words, to me, “pride of place,” means “rare and valuable therefore not used often.” And for me, that would be just fine when it comes to certain musical styles in the Mass!
What does the Church say “pride of place” means? Does anyone know?
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Operalan
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I’m curious what you mean by this. Do you mean that there is an organist on staff in the Diocesan office (Cathedral) that teaches all the organists in the Diocese and all the upcoming organists (if there are any)? I’m truly not sure what you mean.
My parish has a very strong music program.
We must have 150 - 200 singers between our cantors, adult choir, youth choir, and various age groups of children’s choirs. (And we DON’T even have a parish school.)
We have many talented instrumentalists who know piano, cello, flute, percussion, and assorted other instruments.
But we have only one person who can play the organ. And that’s the music director who is also the main choir director. The physical space of our church and the location of the organ pretty much preclude the possibility of him directing and playing organ at the same time because he can’t see the choir and the choir can’t see him. So the organ stays silent at most Masses. Occasionally his wife directs a certain piece so he can play the organ. His talent as a choir conductor is so great as to make it a “sin” for him to give that up in order to be a “mere organist”. (Yes he is that good as a choir director.)
You would think a parish like mine would attract or produce someone who could and would play the organ. But no…
We must have 150 - 200 singers between our cantors, adult choir, youth choir, and various age groups of children’s choirs. (And we DON’T even have a parish school.)
We have many talented instrumentalists who know piano, cello, flute, percussion, and assorted other instruments.
But we have only one person who can play the organ. And that’s the music director who is also the main choir director. The physical space of our church and the location of the organ pretty much preclude the possibility of him directing and playing organ at the same time because he can’t see the choir and the choir can’t see him. So the organ stays silent at most Masses. Occasionally his wife directs a certain piece so he can play the organ. His talent as a choir conductor is so great as to make it a “sin” for him to give that up in order to be a “mere organist”. (Yes he is that good as a choir director.)
You would think a parish like mine would attract or produce someone who could and would play the organ. But no…
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Beryllos
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I can’t recall ever hearing the expression “pride of place” before this thread, but I just looked it up, and it is in the dictionary:
I am not sure what that means with regard to liturgy or liturgical music.
courtesy of Merriam-Webster.com
I am not sure what that means with regard to liturgy or liturgical music.
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KendraDZ1902
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I’m glad I’m not the only one who doesn’t understand what it meant.
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4Squarebaby
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The other instruments mention do have a stronger place in secular music meaning the church does not carry most of the burden in producing musicians. Even if we are talking about a Hammond organ and not a pipe organ with foot pedals the secular market/musicians has all but collapsed when emerging technology in the 1970s transferred the organs role to keyboards and other instruments. Besides a few playing “roots” music Organ Trio Jazz and Blues there are few organ specialist around anymore
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aemcpa
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That is outrageous. That is the sort of thing over which people leave the Church.
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aemcpa
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Sacrosanctum Concilium, Vatican II’s Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, states thusly in Article 116:I’m glad I’m not the only one who doesn’t understand what it meant.
Second Vatican Council:
I am assuming the poster was referring to this quote.
For the record, Article 120 says:
Second Vatican Council:
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html
Regarding the documents about “Pride of Place” and “High Esteem” as quoted by aemcpa…
They still remain vague when it comes to quantifying how we put those into practice.
One could say that the Easter Vigil holds pride of place amongst all other liturgical celebrations and that the Church holds it in high esteem. But we only hold one Easter Vigil per year and unless they are baptized into the Church that day we do not require lay Catholics to ever attend an Easter Vigil.
I believe that the intention is most likely that we use Latin, Gregorian Chant, and organ more often than we use any other languages, styles of singing, or musical instruments. But do we mean as measured at the parish level, at the deanery level, at the diocesan level, at the provincial level, or at some higher level?
Perhaps the documents are more specific in the Latin versions?
I suspect there is a reason for the vagueness.
They still remain vague when it comes to quantifying how we put those into practice.
One could say that the Easter Vigil holds pride of place amongst all other liturgical celebrations and that the Church holds it in high esteem. But we only hold one Easter Vigil per year and unless they are baptized into the Church that day we do not require lay Catholics to ever attend an Easter Vigil.
I believe that the intention is most likely that we use Latin, Gregorian Chant, and organ more often than we use any other languages, styles of singing, or musical instruments. But do we mean as measured at the parish level, at the deanery level, at the diocesan level, at the provincial level, or at some higher level?
Perhaps the documents are more specific in the Latin versions?
I suspect there is a reason for the vagueness.
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pnewton
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I find the Protestant influence idea funny. I grew up in a Baptist Church with organ music every Sunday. The first guitar I ever heard in a Church was when we visited the local Catholic Church for some play.
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GCTSgrad
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I am choosing to convert, and the biggest obstacle had nothing to do with Mary, or praying to saints, or transubstantiation, or…, but the music! I never considered myself a music snob and what I find most annoying is that so many people simply don’t sing the hymns. Naturally, the most familiar hymns are sung the loudest and the least familiar are sung very softly indeed. I am getting used to the practice of a cantor singing verses and having the congregation sing only the refrain, a practice which seems odd to me, but it only happens on some hymns, and I suppose it is better than having the congregation sing music which is too difficult. I could go on and on.
I am not attending Mass for the music. I await the day when I can receive the
Eucharist, which will make the music tolerable.
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Elizium23
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Yes.
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