Music during Mass

[Phemie]

I don’t think that a “pump organ” or any of the little “chord organs” or “fun organs” or even a Clavinova with an organ setting is anywhere near adequate for anyone, child or other, to practice or even get a feel for a “real” organ. To me, it’s like giving someone an Oscar Mayer weiner whistle and saying, “Here, this is kind of like a flute.” Yes, it is, but…

My point was that kids, or adults for that matter, who never hear an organ played are not likely to ever give it a thought as a possible instrument to play.

 

[jediliz]

we usually have the organ at Mass, but a few years back, our lifetime organist passed away (After she had become unable to climb the stairs to the choir loft and basically “Retired”). Sometimes there’s someone who plays the guitar, but its not a “rock and roll” type guitar. Its very respectful. Since we don’t have a regular organist every sunday/saturday vigil, sometimes we end up singing with NO instrument at all.

 

[Cat]

I’m bumping this thread up because I think it’s interesting and helpful. I have been personally helped by several comments, especially Sarabande’s comment about organ competency taking 5-10 years. I can do that! I’ve put in 2 years, and I can see some progress. I’ll only be 64 at the end of ten years, and unless I have a health setback, I should be able to play the organ in church then. (That lady who plays the organ in the Simpson’s church must be at least 90!) I’ve been kind of discouraged because my teacher is so very good, but he’s been playing organ since he was a little boy, and he’s 60 now, so he has over 50 years of practice. He should be better than me!

But after reading Sarabande’s comment, I feel that I will eventually reach a state where I am competent, and that makes me feel good. I like the idea of being able to help perpetuate the playing of the organ in the Mass. I think we need to be very honest with ourselves and recognize that if things don’t change, the organ will be played less and less in Catholic churches because there will be no one who can play it. We can’t hide our heads in the sand and blame “modernism” and “liberals”. I personally wish that the Catholic bishops in the U.S. would open up a serious dialogue about Catholic music and the decreasing number of organists in this country, and invite Catholics to suggest actions to change things around. I think what is going to happen is that one day, they’ll wake up and realize that they can’t even get an organist to play for a Papal visit or some other important occasion in the life of the Church, and they’ll say, “What happened?!” I think we need to get moving now! After all, organists don’t spring up overnight.

The other thing I fear is that most Catholics really, truly don’t care if they ever hear the organ again in or out of Mass. That’s really a shame, and IMO, this attitude has come about because most people don’t get to hear really awesome organ music, and so they don’t know what they’re missing and dissing. I think that sometimes, the “rubrics” about music in the Mass frighten people away from playing and singing really "good “music.” I know that I hesitate to play Bach as a prelude or postlude because (1) he’s a Protestant and (2) so many people on CAF insist that the time before and after Mass must be absolutely silent in the nave so that they can spend time in prayer. I don’t want to interfere with their prayer time, but I also think that Bach music IS a prayer! (He wrote it all “to the glory of God.”)

I think this thread is one of the most respectful and cordial threads about music that I have ever seen on CAF. It’s a pleasure talking to people who are willing to look reality square in the face and who are willing to think hard and come up with practical ideas to help Mass music. It’s also a pleasure talking to people who honestly like music in the Mass. I sure do!

 

[Phemie]

The other thing I fear is that most Catholics really, truly don’t care if they ever hear the organ again in or out of Mass. That’s really a shame, and IMO, this attitude has come about because most people don’t get to hear really awesome organ music, and so they don’t know what they’re missing and dissing.

I think this thread is one of the most respectful and cordial threads about music that I have ever seen on CAF. It’s a pleasure talking to people who are willing to look reality square in the face and who are willing to think hard and come up with practical ideas to help Mass music. It’s also a pleasure talking to people who honestly like music in the Mass. I sure do!

I think that’s a great part of the problem. They don’t miss something that wasn’t particularly good when they had it. Our parish’s little organ was banished to a back room after the last guy who played it left. He played a great classical guitar but as an organist he was a great classical guitarist. When he played they preferred strummed guitars and they seem quite happy with that now. I’m not, because I know what great organ sounds like and I love it.

I have to say that I’m looking forward to next month when I’ll be attending Mass at San Marco & then at Notre Dame while on the trip of a lifetime with a friend. Does anyone else’s vacation planning involve scheduling where you’ll be on Sunday based solely on the churches where you want to attend Mass and then checking to see if there are any geocaches close to those churches?

 

[aemcpa]

I have to say that I’m looking forward to next month when I’ll be attending Mass at San Marco & then at Notre Dame while on the trip of a lifetime with a friend. Does anyone else’s vacation planning involve scheduling where you’ll be on Sunday based solely on the churches where you want to attend Mass and then checking to see if there are any geocaches close to those churches?

What is a geocache?

 

[Phemie]

What is a geocache?

Geocacing is a high tech treasure hunt. Geocachers hide “treasures” all over the planet and post the coordinates to the Geocache online for other geocachers to seek using a GPS receiver. For a cacher, the treasure is in the finding not the contents which can be no more than a slip of paper “logbook”.

 

[aemcpa]

Geocacing is a high tech treasure hunt. Geocachers hide “treasures” all over the planet and post the coordinates to the Geocache online for other geocaches to seek using a GPS receiver. For a cacher the treasure is in the finding, not the contents which can be no more than a slip of paper “logbook”.

Sounds like an entertaining way to waste excess time and money.

 

[Phemie]

Sounds like an entertaining way to waste excess time and money.

It’s how I get most of my exercise. I don’t mind walking 5 miles or climbing hills and cliffs if there’s a Geocache at the end of the trek.

There are over 2 million caches and 5 million cachers around the world.

 

[Cat]

It’s how I get most of my exercise. I don’t mind walking 5 miles or climbing hills and cliffs if there’s a Geocache at the end of the trek.

There are over 2 million caches and 5 million cachers around the world.

My husband and his brother love geocaching, but they don’t get to do it more than a few times a year.

I do love visiting a church with a fantastic organist. My teacher has pals all over the U.S., and he will recommend places for me to visit. Last summer I went to the Shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe in La Crosse, Wisconsin, and THAT was a gorgeous organ played by a wonderful organist. I didn’t care for the acoustics in the church, though–too much marble and too many echoes.

 

[LCOAM]

I have noticed an influx of musical instruments like guitars and drums during songs at Mass. This seems to be a bit too much Protestant influence. Since when did we get away from organs? Agree or disagree on Protestant influence.

I often wonder the same thing. I travel half an hour to go to a Mass because my parish band has 3 guitars, a triangle, a keyboard, drums, a rain stick and bongos. It’s so hard to pray with all the noise!

 

[agapewolf]

I often wonder the same thing. I travel half an hour to go to a Mass because my parish band has 3 guitars, a triangle, a keyboard, drums, a rain stick and bongos. It’s so hard to pray with all the noise!

Psalm 150.

I’m NOT using the psalm to argue for those instruments at mass. I am using it to rebut your statement “its hard to pray with all the noise”

 

[Gertabelle]

This is pretty much the point that has been made in much of the rest of this thread.

But it raises the question of who the “we” is that is not teaching children. Should parishes be paying for this? Should priests be giving homilies about the duties of parents to raise future organists?

It would seem that most parents are uninterested in giving their children organ lessons. I would guess that more parents want their children to take piano, flute, or violin lessons than want to give their children organ lessons.

Sorry to be arriving so late to the party

Last March I started a children’s choir at my parish - we sing in Latin and English, chant and traditional hymns; and gospel and show tunes for perfromances outside of mass.

Anyway, after rehearsal tonight (including a rousing modern rendition of “Take Me Out To the Ballgame”), the kids all gathered at the organ and took turns playing. I couldn’t get them away from it. They LOVE the organ!

Two weeks ago, a couple of the boys (who have been taking piano lessons) played the Psalm, the Alleluia and verse, and a communion meditation ON THE ORGAN during mass. These boys are 9 and 10 years old!

It’s not a need for $$$ and extensive and lengthy training that’s needed to hook the younger generation. It’s access and opportunity. Did the boys play as as well and smoothly as I do at mass? No, and yes.

In this case at least, God is using my position as choir director, and only fair organist, to make learning and playing the organ a possibility for our young ones. And there are other children working harder than ever on their piano skills so they can sit at the organ some Sunday!

The motto of our children’s choir is “developing our musical skills for the glory of God” – I had no idea God would lead us in this direction, but it is so joyful!

God bless, and never lose hope in God!

gert

 

[WhiteLeather]

Questions for the organ aficionados:

Did you know that when the organ was first introduced as an instrument for Mass, it was fought against because it was a “profane” bar instrument?

When was the last time any of you gave money for organ lessons for an interested pupli?

I play piano and organ. I program music of all ages and styles for Masses because what’s more important is that the music’s text matches the Mass being celebrated, not the style in which it’s presented. If the Church were more interested in the organ being used more, then more parishes would fund the training of up and coming organists. My personal taste and your personal taste are just that: personal. What serves the majority of the gathered assembly is what matters, or more succinctly, what helps them to pray.

No one style of music is better than another. Parishes need to stop setting up “ghettos” of music style and let everyone pray (and play) together. I can play a song written last year on organ, or play a 300 year old song on the piano - the instrument is secondary to the participation of the congregation. Whatever helps people with the sung prayer is what matters.

 

[SMHW]

Anyway, after rehearsal tonight (including a rousing modern rendition of “Take Me Out To the Ballgame”), the kids all gathered at the organ and took turns playing. I couldn’t get them away from it. They LOVE the organ!

Two weeks ago, a couple of the boys (who have been taking piano lessons) played the Psalm, the Alleluia and verse, and a communion meditation ON THE ORGAN during mass. These boys are 9 and 10 years old!

I am curious what sort of organ you have.

 

[aemcpa]

No one style of music is better than another.

The Church disagrees with you.

 

[Sarabande]

Questions for the organ aficionados:

Did you know that when the organ was first introduced as an instrument for Mass, it was fought against because it was a “profane” bar instrument?

When was the last time any of you gave money for organ lessons for an interested pupli?

I’m not an organ aficionado, but for the second question, when my children are old enough, I plan on giving them piano lessons first and then encourage other instruments, including the organ. My husband and I are keen on passing down tradition as well as musical tradition since we are both musicians and love history and tradition. Right now, I’m currently spending $150 a lesson for the mastery of my instrument… the voice , as that is what I use for a living at mass and in the secular realm.

For the first question, I don’t think that is quite correct from my readings on the history of music in the Church. The organ was used earlier than when there were actually bars. Actually they were around long before Christianity was around, so if that’s what you meant by it being considered profane… Here’s a short, interesting historical perspective of the organ by Cardinal Ratzinger:

The organ is a theological instrument whose original home was the cult of the emperor. When the Emperor of Byzantium spoke, an organ played. On the other hand the organ was supposed to be the combination of all the voices of the cosmos. Accordingly, the organ music at imperial utterances meant that when the divine emperor spoke, the entire universe resounded. As a divine utterance, his statement is the resounding of all the voices in the cosmos. The “organon” is the cosmic instrument and as such the voice of the world’s ruler, the imperator.18 As against this Byzantine custom, Rome stressed a cosmic Christology and on that basis the cosmis function of Christ’s Vicar on earth: what was good enough for the Emperor was quite good enough for the Pope. Naturally, it is not a case here of superficial problems concerning prestige, but it is a matter of the public, political and cultic representation of the mandates received in each case. To the exclusivity of an imperial theology which abandoned the Church to the Emperor and degraded the bishops to mere imperial functionaries,19 Rome opposed the Pope’s cosmic claim and with it the cosmic rank of belief in Christ, which is independent of and indeed superior to politics. Therefore the organ had to resound in the papal liturgy as well.

…

Furthermore, the history of the organ remained a theo-political history for quite a long time: the fact that an organ resounds at the Carolingian court is an expression of the Carolingian claim to equality with Byzantium. Conversely, the Roman usage was transferred to the cathedrals and abbey churches. Less than a lifetime ago it was still customary for the organ to play as background to the abbot’s recitation of the Pater noster in Benedictine abbeys, and this is to be understood as a direct inheritance from the ancient cosmic liturgy.20

The thing is that the organ has been held in high esteem by the Church for centuries. It might have taken a few centuries in the early Church for it to be permitted use at mass, but it is now part of the musical fabric of the Church and considered an important enough “sacred” instrument that it is held in high esteem. Perhaps other instruments may also get the “special” treatment in the future. Perhaps not. But if it took centuries for the organ to be used other than just the voice, it probably isn’t any different for it to take just as long for complete acceptance of other instruments. The Church works in her time, not at the pleasure of the people.

No one style of music is better than another. Parishes need to stop setting up “ghettos” of music style and let everyone pray (and play) together. I can play a song written last year on organ, or play a 300 year old song on the piano - the instrument is secondary to the participation of the congregation. Whatever helps people with the sung prayer is what matters.

I believe that the Church disagrees. On a secular level and purely on an aesthetic level, yes, no style is really is better than the other. But the Church, through her centuries of learning, experience and wisdom have built a hierarchy of what she believes to be perfection within sacred music. Yes, many parishes usually can’t attain that perfection due to lack of talent, funds, etc., but it is always what parishes try to attain, as they should strive for perfection in all aspects of the liturgy.

 

[CharlesinCenCA]

But the Church, through her centuries of learning, experience and wisdom have built a hierarchy of what she believes to be perfection within sacred music. Yes, many parishes usually can’t attain that perfection due to lack of talent, funds, etc., but it is always what parishes try to attain, as they should strive for perfection in all aspects of the liturgy.

Sarabande, If you have the opportunity, read/scan through Christopher West’s massive history “The Christian West and Its Singers” and you’ll discover that the road to “perfection” on the part of the purveyors of sacred music at service has always and continues to be a rocky one.
I think there’s one aspect that’s stuck with me conceptually from attending CMAA colloquia that’s pertinent here: Gregorian and other ordered chant should be regarded less as “music” and more as a “language” unto itself. The association, or marriage, of the (psalm) texts to melodies is so fused that it’s virtually impossible to separate the two. Of course I’m speaking from the platform of Latinate chants, but it extends otherwise as well. “Perfection,” per se, is already a precondition within the form. Whether it is rendered well in chapel or church is a human endeavor, and therefore approaches “perfection” from a human perspective in execution. And, for my money, all that needs a pervasive sense of humility on the part of all involved, performers and hearers.
We also have to keep in mind that the restoration of chant at service is a fairly recent historical process, and the advent of all this information technology makes this process immediately accessible from your barcalounger (as opposed to searching libraries far and wide). And great conflicts have arisen within the centres of these restorations since Solesmes as to “perfection” in rendition.
So, I’m glad (again) that chant has been knocking on the door for forty plus years after it was ushered out of the church. So, it’s important not to “strive for perfection” so much in the realm of an art form, but to use the techniques of the choral arts to transmit the language of chant as humbly and beautifully possible.

 

[Sarabande]

Sarabande, If you have the opportunity, read/scan through Christopher West’s massive history “The Christian West and Its Singers” and you’ll discover that the road to “perfection” on the part of the purveyors of sacred music at service has always and continues to be a rocky one.
I think there’s one aspect that’s stuck with me conceptually from attending CMAA colloquia that’s pertinent here: Gregorian and other ordered chant should be regarded less as “music” and more as a “language” unto itself. The association, or marriage, of the (psalm) texts to melodies is so fused that it’s virtually impossible to separate the two. Of course I’m speaking from the platform of Latinate chants, but it extends otherwise as well. “Perfection,” per se, is already a precondition within the form. Whether it is rendered well in chapel or church is a human endeavor, and therefore approaches “perfection” from a human perspective in execution. And, for my money, all that needs a pervasive sense of humility on the part of all involved, performers and hearers.
We also have to keep in mind that the restoration of chant at service is a fairly recent historical process, and the advent of all this information technology makes this process immediately accessible from your barcalounger (as opposed to searching libraries far and wide). And great conflicts have arisen within the centres of these restorations since Solesmes as to “perfection” in rendition.
So, I’m glad (again) that chant has been knocking on the door for forty plus years after it was ushered out of the church. So, it’s important not to “strive for perfection” so much in the realm of an art form, but to use the techniques of the choral arts to transmit the language of chant as humbly and beautifully possible.

I’d be very interested in reading that. Thank you for the recommendation. Yes, the Church has a very long history of problems regarding music, most notably how polyphony was once regarded as liscivious, banal, too secular, etc. until the sacred use of polyphony was defined for appropriateness in liturgy.

You make a very good point as well, and I probably should have clarified my previous post. Music, especially sacred and religious music, has always been humbling to me. I view the gift God gave to me as just an instrument to convey His message. One of the first things my first and my current voice teachers taught me was “Prime le parole, dopa la musica”. The words are most important and it’s a good way of looking at chant as a form of “sing-speak” rather than just music. When you focus on the words it creates a form of perfection whether or not the chant is perfectly rendered. At the same time, I don’t believe in being content with mediocrity or worse. I believe we should always strive for perfection even if we can’t always attain it ( and most of the time we can’t) as doing so, for me at least, surrenders my full self to God giving Him so much praise and glory.

 

[Daniel_Lysinger]

True, music DOES have to be extremely reverent, because of course it is the King who is present during the mass. However, I don’t think that guitars per-say are intrinsically bad to play at mass. I think it is mainly the actual music, songs, lyrics that are played and sung during mass that is the biggest problem when it comes to protestant influence. As long as the guitar is played respectfully, IMO it’s fine. But we should be very careful when it comes to the proper music during mass.

 

[sw85]

Have you tried to learn to play the organ?

I have. I’m an excellent pianist and I often play for Mass. I decided two years ago to learn how to play the organ (pipe) with the goal of playing for Mass and being able to play for more traditional-style Masses, including the Latin Mass.

I can now play three hymns. And one of those hymns is an advent hymn. I can play a few Bach preludes and postludes. I’m working on a Vierne piece.

I am working on one of the AGO examinations (hymns), but it is really slow going because (1) it’s very difficult to find the time to practice (2) it’s even more difficult to find an organ to practice on that is available when I am able to practice and (3) the organ is just darned hard to play because it requires both hands, both feet, but only one brain to manage all this!

Here’s one more problem, which isn’t a problem for me, but for others it might be: my lessons cost $250,00 a month. I take from the best liturgical organist in our city.

So IMO, that’s one of the reasons why you see more guitar than organ in the Mass. My cousin taught himself to play the guitar in only a few MONTHS, and he plays in clubs and at competitions. But an organ takes years to be able to learn well enough to play for others.

Another reason why you see more guitars than organs is the cost of a guitar vs. an organ, not just the initial purchase price, but the maintenance and repairs.

Yes, organs are expensive (curiously that didn’t stop our vastly-poorer ancestors from preferring them) and difficult to play (curiously that didn’t stop our supposedly-lower-IQ ancestors from playing them). But so what? Gregorian chant is not overly difficult and sounds far better and more authentically Catholic than screeching David Haas’ “You are Mine” into a microphone. So why not do that?

Ahh, we know why: people prefer lowbrow liturgical music.