Music for TLM question

[orgel_maestro]

So, this question is for the music lovers out there and for choir directors etc.

So, I was just wondering, are we allowed to mix up mass settings? I think I know the answer, but my heart wants to here yes. What I mean is that the for the ordinaries liek the Kyrie, can we take it from one mass setting and say the Sanctus from another.

I ask this specifically becuase, if I got the chance in the future to plan out large Solemn masses, I’d like to use parts of Bach’s Mass in b minor. The first Kyrie is already 10 minutes and Christe and the other Kyrie are like 5 and 3 minutes respectively. The Gloria as a whole would be at least 30 minutes long.

As for the theological stuff, the text is unaltered even though it was probably composed for Lutheran services. The original Latin text that we use is unaltered except one small part in either the Creed or Gloria, its like instead “of God” it’s “of Him” or something, I don’t quite remember, but its not very substantial. But, I wouldn’t use that piece if the b minor mass were to be played.

The point is, I like the Kyrie and would like to have it played at mass, but the entire setting is about 1 hour 45 minutes long. So, I was thinking would it be possible to use the Kyrie parts from the Bach mass and then maybe the Creed and Gloria would be from a gregorian mass setting from the Kyriale?

Since the Kyrie would be a total of like 15 minutes, is it improper to have the Introit chanted as the priests and servers process in? That’s how it was back in the day when Introit were a lot longer and even had added parts. I envision maybe a 1 minute organ prelude, then straight to the introit, then into the kyrie as the priest praying at the foot of the altar and takes his sweet sweet time incensing the altar.

I’m just trying to see how I would arrange the music at my parish if a solemn High mass were to be celebrated. As a music major and nerd, I’m already planning the music for my first mass, if God willingly I ever become a priest. This would entail getting a decent size chorus and orchestra, hmm…

thanks for your advice!

I read in an old book that we were not to use extravagent polyphonic music which started to sound operatic and secular such as those by Mozart and Beethoven, however this book was written during the time of H.H. Pius X, and it forbade women from singing Gregorian chant…I know at my church we sing Schubert and Mozart masses once in a while, so I’m thinking that this book is just a little out dated It was also in this book that said we shouldn’t mix up mass settings. However, I sort of agree to a certain degree. Composers may’ve had some sort of motif or theme going on connecting the different movments. But, if I can take movements from different good mass settings that flow well and seem to have a sense of continuity it should be fine right?

 

[bpbasilphx]

**What I mean is that the for the ordinaries liek the Kyrie, can we take it from one mass setting and say the Sanctus from another.
**

**This was done at the Papal masses in the USA. Even the Liber Usualis allows different parts of the mass to come from different settings.

However, as regards Bach’s B-minor Mass, I don’t think it would be appropriate. He did not intend it to be used liturgically. AND he was a Lutheran.**

 

[orgel_maestro]

**What I mean is that the for the ordinaries liek the Kyrie, can we take it from one mass setting and say the Sanctus from another.
**

**This was done at the Papal masses in the USA. Even the Liber Usualis allows different parts of the mass to come from different settings.

However, as regards Bach’s B-minor Mass, I don’t think it would be appropriate. He did not intend it to be used liturgically. AND he was a Lutheran.**

I know its too long, and the fact that he wrote I think the Sanctus first and at different times probably tells us that it was not intended to be played in its entirety in one sitting for a church service.

However, just because he’s Lutheran, I don’t see that as a reason why we cannot use part of that mass. The text is in Latin, and the text is the exact same, except for one or two spots which reflects the Lutheran version of either the Creed or Gloria, I forget.

But, if the text in Latin is the same, it should not matter, I think. I think we all, well at least me, would’ve preferred if Bach were Catholic, God only knows what beautiful mass settings he could’ve written!

Oh, and I would only probably use the Kyrie and the Agnus Dei sections of his b-minor mass. The Gloria and Creed are way too long, although his “incarnatus” and “crucifixus” movement are really good!

 

[ProVobis]

However, as regards Bach’s B-minor Mass, I don’t think it would be appropriate. He did not intend it to be used liturgically. AND he was a Lutheran.

On the contrary, many of the hymns sung in Catholic Churches were written by non-Catholics. Besides wasn’t J.S. Bach hired by a Catholic prince to write music for the Catholic Church?

Having said all that, I’ve known some organists that refuse to play any of Mozart’s music since he was a Freemason.

 

[luvzita]

I wouldn’t be too quick to discount the advice from your old book. There’s a lot of wisdom there. Chant helps lift the mind to God. Other types of music can do this as well, but you have to be careful in your selection that the music not become a show for those at Mass to listen to rather than an aid to praying the Mass.

 

[FrRJBoyd]

You might want to read Pope St. Pius X’s Tra le Sollecitudini, most of which, I believe, would still be binding for the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

adoremus.org/MotuProprio.html

“The Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, etc., of the Mass must preserve the unity of composition proper to the text. It is not lawful, therefore, to compose them in separate movements, in such a way that each of these movements form a complete composition in itself, and be capable of being detached from the rest and substituted by another.”

“Still, since modern music has risen mainly to serve profane uses, greater care must be taken with regard to it, in order that the musical compositions of modern style which are admitted in the Church may contain nothing profane, be free from reminiscences of motifs adopted in the theaters, and be not fashioned even in their external forms after the manner of profane pieces. Among the different kinds of modern music, that which appears less suitable for accompanying the functions of public worship is the theatrical style, which was in the greatest vogue, especially in Italy, during the last century. This of its very nature is diametrically opposed to Gregorian Chant and classic polyphony, and therefore to the most important law of all good sacred music. Besides the intrinsic structure, the rhythm and what is known as the conventionalism of this style adapt themselves but badly to the requirements of true liturgical music.”