Music in mass

[brotherhrolf]

Ah, ha! I hadn’t said anything about the body of Protestant hymns we sing. Yep, you heard me right! A Catholic cathedral choir sings, SHOCK, Protestant music. You really didn’t think we’d ignore all those lovely Anglican composers, did you? Oh, make no mistake, the theological message is thoroughly vetted, but we have not one but two Protestant music books ( I wouldn’t call them hymnals per se) from which we sing. One is a group of English motets from (shock!) the Renaissance published by Oxford University and the second is a group of translations of generally classical music. Our choir is “ambidextrous” we can sing Palestrina’s Sicut Cervus in Latin or we can use the translation “Like as the Hart” from the Protestant book (which, BTW, has Protestant scratched out on the cover).

 

[brotherhrolf]

Don’t be so quick with your laughing. Gregorian chant and the chant of other rites can be traced back to the first few hundred years of the Church, and these styles were an organic development of the Jewish chanted prayer that existed at the time of Christ.

Believe me, I know that hymns are only a few hundred years old. Hymns are not the music which the Church tells us should hold pride of place. They are a late and inferior form of liturgical music. The “supreme standard”, the “true model” of Catholic liturgical music is chant, which can trace its roots back to the Early Church.

Thank you Mike! Should I re-post the Amazon link in which Joel Cohen and the Boston Camerata show, most definitively, the connection between Jewish and Gregorian chant?

 

[VociMike]

Thank you Mike! Should I re-post the Amazon link in which Joel Cohen and the Boston Camerata show, most definitively, the connection between Jewish and Gregorian chant?

Yes, please do. I haven’t seen this link.

 

[Belcanto]

Sorry, I hate to tell you this but my choir routinely sings lots of things from the 6th century on. You have the whole body of Gregorian chant from the 6th century forward. We’ve sung Christmas carols in Middle English (13th century). We’ve sung Latin motets from the late Middle Ages (14th and 15th century). And I couldn’t count on my fingers and toes the number of motets in Latin and in English that we’ve sung from the Renaissance long before 1700 so please don’t hand me that.

Organ music goes back to the Romans in case you didn’t know. My choir has sung early medieval Christmas concerts (see above) with organ music dating back to the 11th century and played on a hand made wooden posititiv organ.

Please compare the message of “Here I Am Lord” as opposed to oh, “Lord, for Thy Tender Mercy’s Sake” by William Farrant in the 16th century.

I have to sing the stuff you think is so wonderful for diocesan events. Well,guess what? IMHO most of the music from GIA, Haugen, Haas et al is insipid, banal, and (a lovely Old English word) drecht! And, yes, we have sung Faith of Our Fathers.

Brotherhrolf,

My church choir consistently sings chant regularly as well. In addition, works by Tallis, Byrd, Palestrina, Victoria, etc. are in the regular repertoire. We’re the only church in the Diocese of Austin that has such a music program. As for hymns, they come from the “Worship” hymnal, published by GIA. It’s a more traditional hymnal, with some great songs. It’s good to hear that there are other churches that sing the music of the Church’s heritage.

Pax Tecum,
Jay

 

[Belcanto]

I guess I’m with you Deb. I have always thought it was sing joyfully to the Lord. Personally, “Be Not Afraid” and “Here I Am Lord” is far more inspirational to me the “The Lord Bless and Keep You”. Don’t get me wrong, I think it is beautiful, but it is not one that I will find myself singing to myself.

I understand what you’re saying. And although I, like Brotherholf, prefer chant and polyphony, I personally have no problem with contemporary music. One spirit, many gifts, after all. What I do have a problem with is that in any given diocese, you will have 1 parish (if you’re lucky) with a church choir that sings chant and polyphony. Such music is discouraged by many liturgists and bishops (Trautman, for example). I wouldn’t want to remove contemporary music from the music scene altogether, but I do think that more should be done to promote traditional music, since it’s very marganilized at the moment (at least in this country).

The reason I prefer the traditional music is that when I worship God, I need an environment that encourages me towards positive thinking. And that environment must be aesthetically pleasing (music plays a big role in that regard). That’s not the main reason I go to church, but I do consider it to be a legitimate reason.

Pax Tecum,
Jay

 

[brotherhrolf]

Brotherhrolf,

My church choir consistently sings chant regularly as well. In addition, works by Tallis, Byrd, Palestrina, Victoria, etc. are in the regular repertoire. We’re the only church in the Diocese of Austin that has such a music program. As for hymns, they come from the “Worship” hymnal, published by GIA. It’s a more traditional hymnal, with some great songs. It’s good to hear that there are other churches that sing the music of the Church’s heritage.

Pax Tecum,
Jay

Oh, indeed! Did I not read that y’all have done Monteverdi’s Vespers? With original instruments? (Serious case of envy here! I want to sing the Nissi Dominus!) Yep, we use Worship III as our parish hymnal. See folks? You don’t have to put up with “muppet music”. Good music exists!

 

[Belcanto]

Oh, indeed! Did I not read that y’all have done Monteverdi’s Vespers? With original instruments? (Serious case of envy here! I want to sing the Nissi Dominus!) Yep, we use Worship III as our parish hymnal. See folks? You don’t have to put up with “muppet music”. Good music exists!

Yes, indeed! We did sing the Monteverdi Vespers last year, with original instruments. We got an early music ensemble from San Francisco, The Whole Noyse, to accompany us. Ours was the first complete performance of the Vespers in Austin.

Do you do a requiem mass or a concert on All-Soul’s Day? We have such a concert every year. This year, we sang Francesco Cavalli’s Requiem of 1675. It was the last great acapella requiem.

Pax Tecum,
Jay

 

[brotherhrolf]

Oh, my. I am green with envy. The one piece I’ve always wanted to sing!

No, we keep Faure’s Requiem in our repertoire - we sang it at the funeral of our Bishop Ott.

 

[Belcanto]

Oh, my. I am green with envy. The one piece I’ve always wanted to sing!

No, we keep Faure’s Requiem in our repertoire - we sang it at the funeral of our Bishop Ott.

Which recording of the Vespers do you have?

Pax Tecum,
Jay

 

[brotherhrolf]

I have three. One is a double LP from back in the 70s - packed away where I can’t get at it although I still have a working turntable… The CD is the Taverner Consort and Players, Taverner Choir -conducted by Andrew Parrot. And then I have the Deutsche Grammophone DVD of Gardiner and the Monteverdi Choir actually filmed in San Marco which is my favorite.

 

[seagal]

have to sing the stuff you think is so wonderful for diocesan events. Well,guess what? IMHO most of the music from GIA, Haugen, Haas et al is insipid, banal, and (a lovely Old English word) drecht! And, yes, we have sung Faith of Our Fathers.

As I recall, I didn’t p(name removed by moderator)oint any particular kind of music as wonderful. And I agree that some of the music you mention is banal and overly emotional rather than inspirational. I’m just tired of the “holier than thou” attitude that seems to creep into these discussions. I don’t like the feeling of being looked down on because my choice of music may not be as sophisticated as some.

We sing not only for ourselves but to God, our loving Father. Imagine your child writing a song especially for you and singing it with all the enthusiasm and love in her heart. Now can you imagine yourself telling her that it was a nice song but not really the style you liked, and not nearly as nice as the one her brother wrote? I can’t imagine God doing that either.

 

[VociMike]

As I recall, I didn’t p(name removed by moderator)oint any particular kind of music as wonderful. And I agree that some of the music you mention is banal and overly emotional rather than inspirational. I’m just tired of the “holier than thou” attitude that seems to creep into these discussions. I don’t like the feeling of being looked down on because my choice of music may not be as sophisticated as some.

There’s your choice, and my choice, but above all of that there is the Church’s choice. Her criteria are there for anybody to read.

We sing not only for ourselves but to God, our loving Father. Imagine your child writing a song especially for you and singing it with all the enthusiasm and love in her heart. Now can you imagine yourself telling her that it was a nice song but not really the style you liked, and not nearly as nice as the one her brother wrote? I can’t imagine God doing that either.

Either you believe that God gave us a Church and has inspired it, or you don’t. The Church understands the worship that God desires (both for His sake and for ours). Why this insistence that she is not to be listened to in the matter of sacred music?

We’ve gone from 75% Mass attendance to 25% attendance. Does anybody really think that the enormous changes and disruptions in the liturgy (including the music) which have taken place during that decline have played no part in this drastic weakening of the faith? Pope Benedict XVI has a very different opinion on the matter: “I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing today is to a large extent due to the disintegration of the liturgy.”

 

[Belcanto]

I have three. One is a double LP from back in the 70s - packed away where I can’t get at it although I still have a working turntable… The CD is the Taverner Consort and Players, Taverner Choir -conducted by Andrew Parrot. And then I have the Deutsche Grammophone DVD of Gardiner and the Monteverdi Choir actually filmed in San Marco which is my favorite.

The Andrew Parrot recording is good. One that I’d really like to get is the Midori Suzuki/Bach Collegium Japan recording. I’ve heard great things about it.

Pax Tecum,
Jay

 

[m134e5]

As for hymns, they come from the “Worship” hymnal, published by GIA. It’s a more traditional hymnal, with some great songs. It’s good to hear that there are other churches that sing the music of the Church’s heritage.

I would not buy from GIA- even their traditional hymnal. They do not care about promoting the Faith, or the art of music. They care only about making money- otherwise they wouldn’t publish the trash (both from a musical perspective, and from a theological/spiritual perspective) they publish in some of the other hymnals. I would only use the Adoremus hymnal. It is published by Ignatius press- a company that has done a lot to promote the Faith in all its truth and glory.

 

[Belcanto]

I would not buy from GIA- even their traditional hymnal. They do not care about promoting the Faith, or the art of music. They care only about making money- otherwise they wouldn’t publish the trash (both from a musical perspective, and from a theological/spiritual perspective) they publish in some of the other hymnals. I would only use the Adoremus hymnal. It is published by Ignatius press- a company that has done a lot to promote the Faith in all its truth and glory.

I have the Adoremus Hymnal as well. It’s very good. The trouble is, I’m aware of very few churches that use it. And unfortunately, with many people the very word “Adoremus” is going to send up a red flag. GIA has established a good reputation, and a parish would be more likely to buy the Worship hymnal, because of their reputation.

I’m not quite sure what your point is. Do we need to agree with all the material that a company sells in order to purchase a product from them? If that were the case, we wouldn’t have many options about where to shop. And how do you know that they “only care about making money”? They aim to make a profit, but so do all businesses. GIA sells some stuff that I would never buy, but they have many good products. For example, they have several CDs of the Cathedral Singers, an excellent choir. “Test everything. Hold to what is good.”

Pax Tecum,
Jay

 

[brotherhrolf]

I would hope that “I Will Go Up” ranks amongst some of GIA’s abysmal failures (classic muppet music). However, their “Choral Fanfare for Christ the King” is quite decent.