Music in the Church

[benedictgal]

This is the same melody that a Catholic writer rewrote words to: “Sing a New Church” - the same hymn people are always complaining about in here.

There was nothing wrong with the original lyrics.

Sing a New Church
Summoned by the God who made us
rich in our diversity
Gathered in the name of Jesus,
richer still in unity.

Refrain: Let us bring the gifts that differ
and, in splendid, varied ways,
sing a new church into being,
one in faith and love and praise.

Radiant risen from the water,
robed in holiness and light,
male and female in God’s image,
male and female, God’s delight.

Refrain

Trust the goodness of creation;
trust the Spirit strong within.
Dare to dream the vision promised,
sprung from seed of what has been.

Refrain

Bring the hopes of every nation;
bring the art of every race.
Weave a song of peace and justice;
let it sound through time and space.

Refrain

Draw together at one table,
all the human family;
shape a circle ever wider
and a people ever free

However, it tends to water down the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass considerably. There is no mention of the Paschal Mystery. It centers on us, rather than on God.

 

[convert999]

Cat;7995390:

in my 47 years of being Protestant

I was Protestant for over 20 years, I’ve been Catholic for 10…I’ll take the Protestant music:blush: Not the wave your hands in the air gospel music, just hymns.

I agree. I personally don’t like “praise band” music (ok, I’m a snob) but I love the powerful hymns like Great Is Thy Faithfulness, Faith of our Fathers, A Mighty Fortress Is Our God, God of Grace and God of Glory, etc. I’m fortunate, though, that our parish uses these hymns fairly regularly and we have a great organist to play them. “Gather Us In” does occasionally sneak in there, along with “We Remember”, but all in all I like our music. I read the words to “Sing A New Church” and I’ll take “Come Thou Fount” any day!

Protestants, in general, have much bigger music budgets and they hire professional musicians. Even the tiniest little Baptist church here pays more for me to play piano for one service than our organist gets to play two Masses. And the Masses are a lot more labor-intensive, from a musical standpoint. I admire his dedication.

 

[CatholicZ09]

However, it tends to water down the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass considerably. There is no mention of the Paschal Mystery. It centers on us, rather than on God.

I think that the poster meant that there was nothing wrong with “Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing.” I could be wrong, though…

I mostly attribute the Nettleton hymn tune to “God, We Praise You”. Thinking about “Sing a New Church” while singing “God, We Praise You” tends to take away from it.

 

[Lookup]

Yes, I’ve also noticed that Catholic churches seem to have a much lower music budget than any other church… Why is that? Is the music part of mass not an integral part just like the rest? I know the sacrifice of the Mass is the most important part, but even the sung Amen responses tend to be pop sounding.

 

[elgar]

I think you should consider the pope’s recent statements on the best music at mass.

Speaking of the German Pontif, he has a special affinity for the music of that Lutheran J.S. Bach.

As the Director of Music at our Anglican church I’ve chosen 2 hymns this coming Sunday (Trinity) from the Catholic tradition: Holy God We Praise Thy Name (Te Deum), and All Creatures of Our God and King (first reading is from Genesis 1). Can’t get any better than that.

 

[Newbie2]

Here are the words to “Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing,” for those of you who don’t know this beautiful hymn.

Come, thou Fount of every blessing,
tune my heart to sing thy grace;
streams of mercy, never ceasing,
call for songs of loudest praise.
Teach me some melodious sonnet,
sung by flaming tongues above.
Praise the mount! I’m fixed upon it,
mount of thy redeeming love.

1. Here I raise mine Ebenezer; hither by thy help I’m come;
   and I hope, by thy good pleasure,
   safely to arrive at home.
   Jesus sought me when a stranger,
   wandering from the fold of God;
   he, to rescue me from danger,
   interposed his precious blood.
2. O to grace how great a debtor
   daily I’m constrained to be!
   Let thy goodness, like a fetter,
   bind my wandering heart to thee.
   Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it,
   prone to leave the God I love;
   here’s my heart, O take and seal it,
   seal it for thy courts above.

What exactly does this mean?? I don’t think I have an Ebenezer to raise.

And how could I forget “When The Roll Is Called Up Yonder”? I actually played that one at a Baptist funeral a couple of months ago. (By request, of course.)

The NAB uses “yonder” in at least one, and I think a couple other places. I cannot help but smile when those verses are read.

 

[CatholicZ09]

I always wanted to know what an Ebenezer was as well. I always think of Ebenezer Scrooge when I hear this hymn.

 

[InspiritCarol]

Frankly, I’m surprised that evangelical and Calvinist Protestants sing this blatantly Catholic hymn!

And I’m even more surprised that Catholics never sing it. Why don’t they?

Oh, and it sounds good on an organ, too.

Thanks, Cat. Have to check that one out.

Whenever my MIL (who is Methodist) is visiting, I try to work in “Holy, Holy, Holy” apparently that’s a common one for them. (Who knew?)

Hey, Newbie2, I was wondering about the Ebenezer thing too. Apparently we’re not alone.
revneal.org/Writings/whatsan.htm

An Ebenezer is literally a “Stone of Help” and allllmost sounds like a sacramental. lol
~shhhh~ don’t tell the protestants.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

All I have to say about lifting your Ebenezers is … Bah, humbug! Actually, Ebenezer refers to a large stone so-named by Samuel which he placed as a sort of altar or border marker between Israel and the Philistines (Palestine). The word could be translated as “stone of help.”:

“Then Samuel took a stone and set it up between Mizpah and Jeshanah, and named it Ebenezer; for he said, “Thus far the LORD has helped us.” So the Philistines were subdued and did not again enter the territory of Israel; the hand of the LORD was against the Philistines all the days of Samuel. The towns that the Philistines had taken from Israel were restored to Israel, from Ekron to Gath; and Israel recovered their territory from the hand of the Philistines. There was peace also between Israel and the Amorites.” (1 Samuel 7:12-14)

Here is a Protestant song that should be found in every Catholic hymnal. We sing it in my parish on occasion:

John Sammis’ “Trust and Obey”

1. When we walk with the Lord
   in the light of his word,
   what a glory he sheds on our way!
   While we do his good will,
   he abides with us still,
   and with all who will trust and obey.
   Refrain:
   Trust and obey, for there’s no other way
   to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.
2. Not a burden we bear,
   not a sorrow we share,
   but our toil he doth richly repay;
   not a grief or a loss,
   not a frown or a cross,
   but is blest if we trust and obey.
   (Refrain)
3. But we never can prove
   the delights of his love
   until all on the altar we lay;
   for the favor he shows,
   for the joy he bestows,
   are for them who will trust and obey.
   (Refrain)
4. Then in fellowship sweet
   we will sit at his feet,
   or we’ll walk by his side in the way;
   what he says we will do,
   where he sends we will go;
   never fear, only trust and obey.

 

[smichhertz]

In fact, I’m shocked that I never noticed, in my 47 years of being Protestant, that the 2nd verse of this hymn says, “and I hope, by Thy good pleasure, safely to arrive at home.”

I hope!!! Them’s CATHOLIC words! Shocking!

And then the last verse says, “Prone to wander, Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love.”

That’s certainly not OSAS! Again, this is CATHOLIC teaching–the idea that a Christian can actually walk away from God never came out of the mouth of a Calvinist preacher boy!

Wow! I never realized it, but you’re right! They ARE Catholic, haha! I wonder what a Protestant would have to say about that…

 

[InspiritCarol]

I actually am now singing in a Catholic choir, and they do make use of Protestant hymns. I do know of some churches, however, that will only allow hymns composed by Catholics. I attended one where they would have Protestant melodies but with substituted lyrics written by Catholics.

Soooo, no J.S. Bach for them? How SAD.

To demonstrate just how protestant our hymns truly are, I randomly opened our OCP “Breaking Bread” to a page. The first hymn there is “Alleluia! Alleluia!” music by Ludwig van Beethoven (Hymn to Joy) - who at least was a Catholic (phew!); lyrics, however are by Christopher Wordsworth who was not only a Protestant, but a BISHOP of the English Church no less!

I find it stunning to cut out perfectly good music due to who composed it.

No psalms either. Nope, David was most clearly a Jew.

 

[benedictgal]

Soooo, no J.S. Bach for them? How SAD.

To demonstrate just how protestant our hymns truly are, I randomly opened our OCP “Breaking Bread” to a page. The first hymn there is “Alleluia! Alleluia!” music by Ludwig van Beethoven (Hymn to Joy) - who at least was a Catholic (phew!); lyrics, however are by Christopher Wordsworth who was not only a Protestant, but a BISHOP of the English Church no less!

I find it stunning to cut out perfectly good music due to who composed it.

No psalms either. Nope, David was most clearly a Jew.

The problelm is that the hymn should be consistent with Catholic liturgical, dogmatic and sacramental theology. Ancient Israel prayed/chanted the psalms. The Church, the New Israel, appropriated these psalms into her liturgical worship.

 

[TrueLight]

All I have to say about lifting your Ebenezers is … Bah, humbug! Actually, Ebenezer refers to a large stone so-named by Samuel which he placed as a sort of altar or border marker between Israel and the Philistines (Palestine). The word could be translated as “stone of help.”:

“Then Samuel took a stone and set it up between Mizpah and Jeshanah, and named it Ebenezer; for he said, “Thus far the LORD has helped us.” So the Philistines were subdued and did not again enter the territory of Israel; the hand of the LORD was against the Philistines all the days of Samuel. The towns that the Philistines had taken from Israel were restored to Israel, from Ekron to Gath; and Israel recovered their territory from the hand of the Philistines. There was peace also between Israel and the Amorites.” (1 Samuel 7:12-14)

Here is a Protestant song that should be found in every Catholic hymnal. We sing it in my parish on occasion:

John Sammis’ “Trust and Obey”

1. When we walk with the Lord
   in the light of his word,
   what a glory he sheds on our way!
   While we do his good will,
   he abides with us still,
   and with all who will trust and obey.
   Refrain:
   Trust and obey, for there’s no other way
   to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.
2. Not a burden we bear,
   not a sorrow we share,
   but our toil he doth richly repay;
   not a grief or a loss,
   not a frown or a cross,
   but is blest if we trust and obey.
   (Refrain)
3. But we never can prove
   the delights of his love
   until all on the altar we lay;
   for the favor he shows,
   for the joy he bestows,
   are for them who will trust and obey.
   (Refrain)
4. Then in fellowship sweet
   we will sit at his feet,
   or we’ll walk by his side in the way;
   what he says we will do,
   where he sends we will go;
   never fear, only trust and obey.

I love this song!

 

[Bluegoat]

Wow! I never realized it, but you’re right! They ARE Catholic, haha! I wonder what a Protestant would have to say about that…

These would only be a problem for a few Protestant groups. In general, the understanding of salvation/sanctification help by Catholics and the largest Protestant groups are pretty similar.

 

[CatholicZ09]

I think that the lyrics for “Alleluia! Alleluia!” are perfectly fine.

Alleluia! Alleluia! Hearts to heav’n and
voices raise; Sing to God a hymn of gladness,
Sing to God a hymn of praise. He who on the
cross as Savior For the world’s salvation bled, Jesus
Christ, the King of Glory, Now is risen from the dead.

Now the iron bars are broken, Christ from death to
life is born, Glorious life, and life immortal,
On this resurrection morn; Christ has triumphed,
and we conquer By his mighty enterprise; We with
him to life eternal By his resurrection rise.

Alleluia! Alleluia! Glory be to
God on high; Alleluia to the Savior,
Who has won the victory; Alleluia
to the Spirit, Font of love and sanctity; Alle-
luia! Alleluia! To the triune Majesty.

 

[InspiritCarol]

I think that the lyrics for “Alleluia! Alleluia!” are perfectly fine.

Guess I wasn’t clear…
Benedictgal & CatholicZ09, in the note I was responding to, the poster said they knew of a church that did *not *allow non-Catholic hymns.

I do know of some churches, however, that will only allow hymns composed by Catholics.

I was pointing out the folly of that absolute approach. Apparently you agree.

There was a really good article in “This Rock” that stressed the fact that as directors, we can not be complacent in assuming that just because a Catholic wrote it, the song is necessarily theologically correct. (sorry I can’t find it right now - If I do, I’ll link to it).

 

[InspiritCarol]

These would only be a problem for a few Protestant groups. In general, the understanding of salvation/sanctification help by Catholics and the largest Protestant groups are pretty similar.

It never ceases to amaze me just how close we are in so MANY ways. I mean when I sit down and talk to protgestants who are really “walking the walk”; it seems like almost everything can be reduced to same idea-> different wording; or mis-information. Try and pin down a “OSAS” individual and come to find out, there are exceptions to the rule… different ways of perception.

The most exciting is when you get to see a really well studied, deeply faithful Evangelical intuit naturally, strange and obscure points of Catholicism that they don’t even know are Catholic.

BTW: Sorry if I seem a bit grumpy, I’m actively having regular contractions (Have had for two weeks & I’m a bit tired of it.)

 

[CatholicZ09]

Guess I wasn’t clear…
Benedictgal & CatholicZ09, in the note I was responding to, the poster said they knew of a church that did *not *allow non-Catholic hymns. I was pointing out the folly of that absolute approach. Apparently you agree.

There was a really good article in “This Rock” that stressed the fact that as directors, we can not be complacent in assuming that just because a Catholic wrote it, the song is necessarily theologically correct. (sorry I can’t find it right now - If I do, I’ll link to it).

I figured that I knew what you were saying.

I was just posting the lyrics for the heck of it.

I’m not necessarily fond of the “only hymns composed by Catholics can be sung” approach. There are many good hymns written by non-Catholics that can be sung at Mass. The only thing that I think matters is the theology of the hymns themselves; however, like you said, some hymns composed by Catholics themselves aren’t necessarily appropriate for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. That can be the case for a lot of modern/contemporary hymns/songs.

 

[Cat]

In the not-so-distant past (like when I was a little girl), any Protestant schoolchild could have told you the meaning of “here I raise my Ebenezer,” and also cited the Scriptural passage and described the context in which this incident occurred.

Nowadays, many Protestant schoolchildren know nothing about King David except that he looked really smokin’ hot in the movie! imdb.com/title/tt0089420/

Unless they are homeschooled in a very good homeschool, about the only place that most Protestant schoolchildren get any Old Testament training these days is at VBS, and that isn’t exactly “deep” study.

The Child Evangelism Fellowship also has an excellent series of Old Testament studies for young children, including a fantastic series on David. I went through this with my kids, and it was very detailed.

My father’s family came from the Ebenezer Reformed Church! So I grew up familiar with this expression, and LOVE IT!

 

[Cat]

Catholics, take a closer, more critical look at these lyrics.

When the trumpet of the Lord shall sound, and time shall be no more,
And the morning breaks, eternal, bright and fair;
When the saved of earth shall gather over on the other shore,
And the roll is called up yonder, I’ll be there.

Refrain:
When the roll is called up yonder,
When the roll is called up yonder,
When the roll is called up yonder,
When the roll is called up yonder, I’ll be there.

On that bright and cloudless morning when the dead in Christ shall rise,
And the glory of His resurrection share;
When His chosen ones shall gather to their home beyond the skies,
And the roll is called up yonder, I’ll be there.

Let us labor for the Master from the dawn till setting sun,
Let us talk of all His wondrous love and care;
Then when all of life is over, and our work on earth is done,
And the roll is called up yonder, I’ll be there.

First, these lyrics do NOT express a Darby or “Left Behind” version of the Rapture. This hymn expresses a POV of endtimes that is consistent with Catholic teaching. There is no “rapture” of saved people, leaving the unsaved here on earth to face 7 years of tribulation. At the end of time, all the saved will be gathered together in heaven.

Secondly, look at the 3rd verse. This verse clearly speaks of WORKING for salvation. It says, “Let us labor for the Master…then when the roll is called up yonder, I’ll be there.”

The implication is very strong that we do not go to heaven with a “Sinner’s Prayer Salvation Ticket.” We are expected to WORK here on this earth in order to demonstrate that we are a child of God.

Finally, what on earth is wrong with Catholics stating, “I WILL be in heaven” ? Isn’t that what we mean when we say, “I WILL be a saint!”?

If we want something, we have to take hold of it and claim it, not just wimpily say, “I sure hope I make it.” That’s like saying, “I sure wish I could lose weight”–you know it won’t ever happen. OTOH, if you say, “I WILL lose weight,” it is more likely to happen.

When we bless ourselves with holy water, we renounce Satan and all his pomps. Are we being presumptuous when we make declarations like this? Would it be better if Catholics said, “I hope to renounce Satan and all his pomps?”

Saying, “I’ll be there!” is a declaration that we will not allow ANYTHING, including any attraction to mortal sin, to allow us to be separated from Jesus. It is not an assumption that we’ll be there. It’s a statement that we will do our part to make it to heaven. The 3rd verse of When The Roll makes it clear that we do not intend to just sit around or do what we please while we wait for Jesus to take.

You see, you can’t be taking phrases out of context in hymns. The hymn has to be taken as a whole to get the entire meaning.

Once again, I am shocked that Protestants sing a hymn that advocates works and salvation!

As for the melody, it’s a stirring one, one that gets the blood moving and encourages a Christian to stay faithful. I happen to like it, and think that if the hymn were sung with awareness of the lyrics, it would be a very appropriate hymn for Catholics to sing at Mass.