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Newbie2
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Interesting. I wonder if that was a reference in Charles Dickens’ story (Scrooges gravestone, perhaps?)j
In any case, I don’t own one.
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In any case, I don’t own one.
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convert999
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By claiming with certainty that “I’ll be there” we are indicating that we have total faith in our own righteousness. We also claim the right to decide whether we will be in heaven, when that decision belongs to God. Of course we can nourish a lively hope that we are going to heaven. But our ability to live according to the commandments is completely dependent on God’s mercy. (CCC 2090 – “When God reveals Himself and calls him, man cannot fully respond to the divine love by his own powers. He must hope that God will give him the capacity to love Him in return and to act in conformity with the commandments of charity.”
The fact that the third verse speaks of working for the Master in no way implies that the hymn-writer believes that those works are necessary for salvation. All Christians, Catholic and Protestant, believe that we should do God’s work on earth. Evangelicals generally see works as a SIGN of salvation, not that our salvation in any way depends upon our works.
My final objection to this hymn is that it glorifies the human will. It implies that we are in charge of our own salvation, when in fact we are dependent upon God for our hope.
The fact that the third verse speaks of working for the Master in no way implies that the hymn-writer believes that those works are necessary for salvation. All Christians, Catholic and Protestant, believe that we should do God’s work on earth. Evangelicals generally see works as a SIGN of salvation, not that our salvation in any way depends upon our works.
My final objection to this hymn is that it glorifies the human will. It implies that we are in charge of our own salvation, when in fact we are dependent upon God for our hope.
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Elizium23
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It seems to me a logical fallacy to say “Look, Protestants sing this Catholic song!” or “Look! This song is consistent with Catholic doctrine!” and imply that all protestants everywhere always sing songs that promote Catholic doctrine. Namely, it is ‘cherry picking’ (you found one hymn out of 500 that does not contradict Catholic doctrine) and ‘hasty generalization’ (few of us on CAF are protestants, and we don’t all have protestant hymnals to check on this).
While the term “Protestant” can be interpreted in a strict way to mean ecclesial communities which emerged in the Reformation of the 1500s, most inhabitants of the Catholic Answers Forums take it as a much wider umbrella, encompassing Evangelical communities as well as non-Trinitarian sects such as Jehovah’s Witnesses and Latter-day Saints. I can assure you that many non-Catholic Christians sing hymns which deny or minimize Catholic doctrine.
In fact, I attended a Methodist service once where we sang “Sing of Mary”. The words “Virgin Mother, undefiled” were replaced with “Maiden mother, wise and mild”. It is a clear case of Protestant heresy reducing very Catholic dogmas to something wishy-washy. This is a real hymn in a real Methodist hymnal that was sung in a real service, not something I just now googled for.
While the term “Protestant” can be interpreted in a strict way to mean ecclesial communities which emerged in the Reformation of the 1500s, most inhabitants of the Catholic Answers Forums take it as a much wider umbrella, encompassing Evangelical communities as well as non-Trinitarian sects such as Jehovah’s Witnesses and Latter-day Saints. I can assure you that many non-Catholic Christians sing hymns which deny or minimize Catholic doctrine.
In fact, I attended a Methodist service once where we sang “Sing of Mary”. The words “Virgin Mother, undefiled” were replaced with “Maiden mother, wise and mild”. It is a clear case of Protestant heresy reducing very Catholic dogmas to something wishy-washy. This is a real hymn in a real Methodist hymnal that was sung in a real service, not something I just now googled for.
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convert999
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Once I played for a Methodist prayer breakfast at Christmastime where the song leader substituted the words “the Babe, the Son of the Father” for “the Babe, the Son of Mary” in What Child is This. I commented on it later and was told that the original words implied that Mary was a special person. 
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CatholicZ09
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For example, Mormon’s changed the words to the Trinitarian hymn “Holy, Holy, Holy.” The words “God, in three persons, blessed Trinity” have been changed to “God in His glory, blessed Deity” to reflect the Mormon Godhead. Another example is “All Creatures of Our God and King.” They cut out the last verse completely:
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TrueLight
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I don’t know anything about Methodists, but I can tell you I have been singing, “The Babe, the Son of Mary” since I was a child.Once I played for a Methodist prayer breakfast at Christmastime where the song leader substituted the words “the Babe, the Son of the Father” for “the Babe, the Son of Mary” in What Child is This. I commented on it later and was told that the original words implied that Mary was a special person.
I don’t even understand why he changed it. Everyone knows Mary is the mother of Jesus. It doesn’t say anything about the Catholic view of Mary one way or the other.
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GloriousOrder
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To be honest, some of the anthems by Charles Villiers Stanford, an Anglican active from the 1880’s to the 1920’s, are very beautiful. He set the most ancient and beautiful hymns for chorus, including the Magnificant, Te Deum, and Nunc dimittis. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with his grand, classical style.
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Cat
Guest
This means that the old Catholic favorite, Faith of Our Fathers, must be stricken from the hymnal.
Here are the words:
1.Faith of our fathers, living still
In spite of dungeon, fire and sword,
O how our hearts beat high with joy
Whene’er we hear that glorious word!
Faith of our fathers! holy faith!
We will be true to thee till death!
2.Our fathers, chained in prisons dark,
Were still in heart and conscience free;
And blest would be their children’s fate,
If they, like them should die for thee:
Faith of our fathers! holy faith!
We will be true to thee till death!
3.Faith of our fathers, we will strive
To win all nations unto thee;
And through the truth that comes from God
Mankind shall then indeed be free.
Faith of our fathers! holy faith!
We will be true to thee till death!4.
Faith of our fathers, we will love
Both friend and foe in all our strife,
And preach thee, too, as love knows how
By kindly words and virtuous life.
Faith of our fathers! holy faith!
We will be true to thee till death!
Source: hymnal.net/hymn.php/h/830#ixzz1PZMCbEZM
Every verse ends with “We will be true to thee til death!”
convert999 points out, "But our ability to live according to the commandments is completely dependent on God’s mercy. (CCC 2090 – “When God reveals Himself and calls him, man cannot fully respond to the divine love by his own powers. He must hope that God will give him the capacity to love Him in return and to act in conformity with the commandments of charity.”
So we are being presumptuous and man-centered to make any kind of declarative statement about the future. Instead, the hymn ought to say, “As God gives me the power, I will hopefully be true to Him until death.”
Correct?
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convert999
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If you reread my posts, I never suggested that anything be “stricken from the hymnal.” I merely pointed out what bothers me about certain hymns. This is my opinion, and I am entitled to it, just as you are entitled to yours. The difference is that I don’t feel compelled to force everyone else to agree with me.
In answer to your question, I do indeed believe it is presumptuous to make any declarative statements about our salvation. I am happy to leave this matter in God’s hands.
In answer to your question, I do indeed believe it is presumptuous to make any declarative statements about our salvation. I am happy to leave this matter in God’s hands.
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MarkThompson
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It also contains the borderline-heretical implication that we will not be true to God after death, which implies a lack of belief in heaven and the life to come. Very destructive to the faith.
Yeah, this “hymn” is all “Look at me, look at me! Ain’t I just so wunnerful?” It clearly just glorifies human perseverance. Look at the lyrics – it’s all “us,” “our,” “we.” Typical people-centered Spirit-of-V2-folk-hippie mentality.
Human-centered, and subtly undermining the eternal truths of the faith – who wrote this, Haugen or Haas?
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Bluegoat
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MarkThompson
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Yes, from Wiki.
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Bluegoat
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Do you have some reason to think this information is incorrect? If so, do please enlighten us.
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MarkThompson
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I apologize for not being clear (though that would have destroyed the fun of the comment). I’m perfectly aware that Faith of our Fathers is an old, and completely orthodox, Catholic hymn. There is, however, a certain stripe of person who – provided that you tell them a hymn is by a modern or non-Catholic songwriter – will go to almost any lengths to find heresy and Protestantism in it. Is it about doing good in the world? Too human-centered. Does it not mention doing good? De-emphasizing works is so classically Protestant. Does it mention sinfulness? Typically Calvinist. Does it not mention sinfulness? Too lovey-dovey. Did it fail to treat some dogmatic question with Thomistic verbosity and precision? Infected with Jansenism, Arianism, Donatism, Pelagianism, Monophysitism, and/or Docetism.
So I think it occasionally bears illustrating that the same baleful eye, turned toward virtually any work of poetry no matter how beloved and traditional, will never fail to turn up something to accuse.
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InspiritCarol
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Ah HA! I always *knew *there was something insidious about that “Hymn”… A little too smug and self assured.
I would say it’s definitely Haugen, except it’s not syncopated enough.
This is another one of those funny thread where we all pretty much agree on a thing but seem to not. Isn’t it weird how that happens sometimes?
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Bluegoat
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Ah - yes I see what your saying - I’m afraid I totally misinterpreted you!
Yes, you are quite right. Pretty much no hymn can on its own encompass the whole of the Catholic (or any other) Christian tradition.
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TrueLight
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My, my, Mark. This is an excellent post. I’ve always wanted to express this, but didn’t know how. You hit the nail on the head!
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Cat
Guest
AMEN!
And although I think it is an excellent thing to aspire to perfection in our hymnody, especially in those hymns sung at Mass, I also believe that we need to make allowances for human inadequacies, and to try to find the germ of truth and beauty in any piece of Christian music, rather than peering through a microscope to root out the imperfections, and then denouncing the hymn with the sour tone of a disgruntled Broadway critic.
Just as every Christian we meet can help and encourage us on our way, so every hymn has *something *to offer to the Christian. Yesterday, after writing the post on “When the Roll is Called Up Yonder,” I went to work humming this hymn for the rest of the day (in my head, since humming is not allowed by my Scrooge–I mean supervisor). It was such an encouragement to me on a very, very bad day, especially the line about working for the Master.
And when it comes to Mass music, this is the responsibility of the music director under the authority of the parish priest under the authority of the bishop under the authority of the Pope. We are not in that chain of command.
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