Music in the Liturgy

[blackrobe]

The use of several non-liturgical songs in the* Novus Ordo* seems almost universal these days. By what authority has this come about? The GIRM mentions only options for designated liturgical chants.

 

[CB_Catholic]

The use of several non-liturgical songs in the* Novus Ordo* seems almost universal these days. By what authority has this come about? The GIRM mentions only options for designated liturgical chants.

You don’t state what songs you are talking about. I have never experienced this personally. Are you saying they are playing secular songs where you attend Mass, or what?

BTW, the preferred term is the Ordinary Form of the Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

The use of several non-liturgical songs in the* Novus Ordo* seems almost universal these days. By what authority has this come about? The GIRM mentions only options for designated liturgical chants.

In fairness, they do mention that hymns may be used, as long as they capture the spirit of the antiphons listed in the IGMR/GRIM. That, of course, requires that the antiphons be at least examined before the choices of hymns be made. I doubt if this is done more than in a handful of parishes. And if you want to hear Gregorian chant, you probably need to go to a monastery for that.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

I don’t hear non-liturgical songs at Mass in my own parish or in parishes I visit. What songs are they singing in your parish?

 

[OraLabora]

And if you want to hear Gregorian chant, you probably need to go to a monastery for that.

Once a month, on a rotating basis in the parishes of the Archdiocese of Sherbrooke, QC. And in the Ordinary Form too for that matter.

There are quite a few other scholas doing the same thing. I know of at least three in my province, at least a couple in Ontario, same thing out west.

Gregorian chant may be on life support but it ain’t dead yet! I sing regularly in the Sherbrooke schola.

 

[blackrobe]

You don’t state what songs you are talking about. I have never experienced this personally. Are you saying they are playing secular songs where you attend Mass, or what?

BTW, the preferred term is the Ordinary Form of the Mass.

Thanks for correcting my terminological* faux pas*, I blame fatigue. Anyway, I suppose I mean anything that does not meet the description of the Roman Missal:

1. The main place should be given, all things being equal, to Gregorian chant, as being proper to
   the Roman Liturgy. Other kinds of sacred music, in particular polyphony, are in no way excluded,
   provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster the participation
   of all the faithful.50
   Since the faithful from different countries come together ever more frequently, it is desirable that
   they know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, especially the
   Profession of Faith and the Lord’s Prayer, according to the simpler settings.

 

[blackrobe]

In fairness, they do mention that hymns may be used, as long as they capture the spirit of the antiphons listed in the IGMR/GRIM. That, of course, requires that the antiphons be at least examined before the choices of hymns be made. I doubt if this is done more than in a handful of parishes. And if you want to hear Gregorian chant, you probably need to go to a monastery for that.

I am fortunate to have an oratory within 50 miles that has both an adult and children’s choir which can do the job admirably.

So would you say compliance with the Roman Missal depends on what one considers sacred music? And are there any authoritative standards? Approved books?

 

[ProVobis]

I am fortunate to have an oratory within 50 miles that has both an adult and children’s choir which can do the job admirably.

So would you say compliance with the Roman Missal depends on what one considers sacred music? And are there any authoritative standards? Approved books?

Actually the 4-hymn Mass became pretty much standard right after the council, as the old Mass was being dismantled. The Prayers at the Foot of the Altar and the Last Gospel were eliminated among other prayers eventually. When Pope Paul’s Mass was promulgated, although the antiphons (Introit, Communion, etc.) were still listed in Latin, they never completed the translations into the vernacular and there was no reason not to continue with the status quo, the hymns.

 

[Divine3]

The use of several non-liturgical songs in the* Novus Ordo* seems almost universal these days. By what authority has this come about? The GIRM mentions only options for designated liturgical chants.

Amen! :clapping: If you look up what was written about sacred music from the Vatican ll in the 19 60’s the bishops, at least many of them, never implemented what should have been requested by the Vatican. So goes our liturgy-- :harp:catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=535 and

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_instr_19670305_musicam-sacram_en.html

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Other kinds of sacred music, in particular polyphony, are in no way excluded, provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster the participation of all the faithful.50

So the GIRM says other music is OK. Your OP said your parish uses non-liturgical music.

I’m guessing that your parish is using “other kinds of sacred music” and you’re unhappy because you think anything that isn’t Gregorian chant isn’t appropriate for liturgy. I think the majority of bishops and majority of priests disagree.

If the hymns in the missalettes and hymnals from the big publishers are OK with the bishops and they’re not your cup of tea, you’ll have to find someplace that has the kind of music that suits you. But saying that the GIRM doesn’t allow hymns or that they’re non-liturgical isn’t an argument that’s going to win the day except with those who already agree with you.

 

[Gertabelle]

In fairness, they do mention that hymns may be used, as long as they capture the spirit of the antiphons listed in the IGMR/GRIM. That, of course, requires that the antiphons be at least examined before the choices of hymns be made. I doubt if this is done more than in a handful of parishes.** And if you want to hear Gregorian chant, you probably need to go to a monastery for that.**

The choir I’m in charge of has young people, aged 11 - 23, who sing Gregorian chant at mass every week, at an ordinary parish in an ordinary neighborhood (on the lower income side). At the very least, we chant the Sanctus and Agnus Dei in Latin, and one of us sings the Communion Antiphon (from Simple English Propers) with the Psalm every week at the beginning of communion. We still have time to sing two hymns the antiphon.

We often include chanted hymns (e.g., “Pange Lingua” or “Veni, Creator Spiritus”) in our hymn list.

1. The main place should be given, all things being equal, to Gregorian chant, as being proper to
   the Roman Liturgy. **Other kinds of sacred music, in particular polyphony, are in no way excluded,
   provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster the participation
   of all the faithful.**50
   Since the faithful from different countries come together ever more frequently, it is desirable that
   they know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, especially the
   Profession of Faith and the Lord’s Prayer, according to the simpler settings.

I’ve always found the bold text (above) to be somewhat confusing. By it’s very structure, polyphony does not foster “participation of all the faithful,” if by participation we mean that they sing along. I’m pretty sure that even if we had made copies for the congregation of the “Vidi Aquam” polyphony at Easter, not many would have a clue how to even follow along with the three independent voices as they criss-crossed over each other and then met at the end of each phrase.

But many of the people who talk with us after mass have said that the music allows them to focus on their prayers, because they are NOT singing along, and the music is beautiful.

My point: We do sing hymns, but we also sing chant and polyphony.

The other masses at our parish have much older singers, and they sing the newer hymns and rarely ever sing Gregorian chant. They’re good musicians and do a good and prayerful job… but their musical choices are different from ours.

Either way, Jesus is there, and people pray.

 

[John_Lilburne]

Here are some Instructions that can be looked at on this. From At vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_instr_19670305_musicam-sacram_en.html

"MUSICAM SACRAM*
INSTRUCTION ON MUSIC IN THE LITURGY
 5 March, 1967 …
32. The custom legitimately in use in certain places and widely confirmed by indults, of substituting other songs for the songs given in the Graduale for the Entrance, Offertory and Communion, can be retained according to the judgment of the competent territorial authority, as long as songs of this sort are in keeping with the parts of the Mass, with the feast or with the liturgical season. It is for the same territorial authority to approve the texts of these songs.”

From 2001 Instruction Liturgiam authenticam*at
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20010507_liturgiam-authenticam_en.html

“108. Sung texts and liturgical hymns have a particular importance and efficacy. Especially on Sunday, the “Day of the Lord”, the singing of the faithful gathered for the celebration of Holy Mass, no less than the prayers, the readings and the homily, express in an authentic way the message of the Liturgy while fostering a sense of common faith and communion in charity.[78] If they are used widely by the faithful, they should remain relatively fixed so that confusion among the people may be avoided. Within five years from the publication of this Instruction, the Conferences of Bishops, necessarily in collaboration with the national and diocesan Commissions and with other experts, shall provide for the publication of a directory or repertory of texts intended for liturgical singing. This document shall be transmitted for the necessary recognitio to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.”

 

[Divine3]

musicasacra.com/about-cmaa/faq/ 24 questions regarding sacred music–

Alleluia! The Lord is risen and our music is still of the Easter Season. Beautiful music is out there for the Easter Season-- Alleluia! A blessed Sunday to all!:harp:

 

[ProVobis]

. I think the majority of bishops and majority of priests disagree.

For the record,

CONSTITUTION ON THE LITURGY

1962: October 22 to November 13: Debate.

November 17 to December 7: First voting.

1963: October 8 to 30: Continuation of the first voting.

November 18 to 22: Voting on the amendments (modi).

December 4: Solemn final voting (2147 for, 4 against) and promulgation

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

For the record,

I think we’re in agreement.

I said the bishops disagree that Gregorian chant is the only acceptable music used at Mass and that’s what the council fathers also said. Other forms of music are allowed and as far as I can tell in the parishes I’ve belonged to and those I’ve visited, they use other forms of music. If, like the OP, I wanted to hear chant, I would seek out a parish that celebrates the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. Those celebrating Mass in the vernacular aren’t likely to use music that is in Latin except very minimally.

 

[ProVobis]

I said the bishops disagree that Gregorian chant is the only acceptable music used at Mass and that’s what the council fathers also said.

My point was that there was strong recommendation to use Latin, Gregorian chant, organ, etc. Otherwise why was it brought up as the first item on the council agenda/schema? I think anyone has the right to at least ask the priest or bishop to use at Mass what was recommended at the council, no? People don’t need to be slammed down because 99% decide to go against the recommendations or suggestions or whatever was decided at the council.

 

[blackrobe]

So the GIRM says other music is OK. Your OP said your parish uses non-liturgical music.

I’m guessing that your parish is using “other kinds of sacred music” and you’re unhappy because you think anything that isn’t Gregorian chant isn’t appropriate for liturgy. I think the majority of bishops and majority of priests disagree.

If the hymns in the missalettes and hymnals from the big publishers are OK with the bishops and they’re not your cup of tea, you’ll have to find someplace that has the kind of music that suits you. But saying that the GIRM doesn’t allow hymns or that they’re non-liturgical isn’t an argument that’s going to win the day except with those who already agree with you.

Apparently you know more about me than I do. I’ll be sure to check with you next time I need to know what I think. I did not propose an argument; you assumed one. I merely wanted to know by what authority it has become nearly universal to disregard the Missal and I have my answer: Because we can.

Fortunately I am privileged to have access to the liturgy described in the Missal with all the forms of music prescribed.
AMDG
jsa

 

[blackrobe]

Actually the 4-hymn Mass became pretty much standard right after the council, as the old Mass was being dismantled. The Prayers at the Foot of the Altar and the Last Gospel were eliminated among other prayers eventually. When Pope Paul’s Mass was promulgated, although the antiphons (Introit, Communion, etc.) were still listed in Latin, they never completed the translations into the vernacular and there was no reason not to continue with the status quo, the hymns.

Yes, I have been a witness to all of that but I still can’t figure out how it came about with respect to authority. It seems that* Sacrosanctum Concilium* the* Missale Romanum* have simply been disregarded. Pastoral* fiat*? * Vox populi*?
AMDG
jsa

 

[John_Lilburne]

Authority for a “four hymn Mass” is in 1967 Instruction Musicam Sacram (at vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_instr_19670305_musicam-sacram_en.html ):

“36. There is no reason why some of the Proper or Ordinary should not be sung in said Masses. Moreover, some other song can also, on occasions, be sung at the beginning, at the Offertory, at the Communion and at the end of Mass.”