Music leader rude to priest

[puzzleannie]

Ugh! This has happened at least twice that I’ve seen. After the congregation has received Communion, the priest turns to the music group to give them Communion. The leader KEEPS ON SINGING while Father stands there.

)

as long as I have been going to Church, and that is a real long time, the priest has sometimes had to wait for the choir to finish. In the TLM it was common for the priest to sit if the Gloria or other chant was a particularly long one, and quite frequently for the hymn after communion, which often did not even begin until everyone, including the choir, had received.

 

[choy]

quite curious though, if this was really an issue between the priest and the choir, don’t you think the priest would have addressed this with the choir leader?

maybe we’re seeing disrespect when there is none

 

[StrawberryJam]

Ugh! This has happened at least twice that I’ve seen. After the congregation has received Communion, the priest turns to the music group to give them Communion. The leader KEEPS ON SINGING while Father stands there.

He doesn’t just finish the verse, he sings at least one more verse while Father continues to wait! Tonight they kept singing, so I bowed my head in order not to stare and get annoyed. The singing continued (whole group, not just the leader). When I looked up, they were still singing, but Father was back in his chair and the altar was clear. I guess he decided not to wait for them.

My husband refers to it as the “music leader holding Father hostage.”

I think it’s rude (and presumptuous - as if he’s in charge of Mass)

At the parish I go to, the Choir is given communion first. So, this would never happen there.

 

[jamanne]

I am sixty five years old and have attended Churches in the UK ,US ,Canada and various other countries . NEVER have I heard a Choir singing through distribution of the Eucharist ,only an organ or pianist playing .I can,t imagine a priest standing waiting holding the Eucharist while a choir member finishes a hymn .If they must sing surely they could devise an appropriate pause they must surely have some sense of timing .Then again some people have big egos and just give them a stage and you almost have to knock them out to shut them up.by the way In my parish we have the worst piano player you ever heard but no one will hurt her feelings by putting someone else in her place.She starts banging away twenty minutes before Mass starts and its like trying to say your rosary with steel drums blasting in your ears, but God Bless her she tries and I shouldn’t be so critical God Bless all

 

[Sarabande]

Father did go to them and stand there waiting. It was only after a time of continued singing that Father sat down.

I hope they work something out.

I hope they do as well, but I do find it surprising that he would not have said anything earlier so as to avoid the same situation again. Most priests I’ve worked for are very up front about what they like and don’t like and we hear about it almost immediately if they don’t like something. That’s why I have a feeling something might have already been said and at least in the stage where they will be trying different ways of handling it. Although there are always those kinds of priests who won’t say anything at all because they either don’t really mind or will let it stew for weeks until they’re so angry they can’t see straight. He might be either one of those kinds.

 

[NPC]

I am sixty five years old and have attended Churches in the UK ,US ,Canada and various other countries . NEVER have I heard a Choir singing through distribution of the Eucharist ,only an organ or pianist playing .I can,t imagine a priest standing waiting holding the Eucharist while a choir member finishes a hymn .If they must sing surely they could devise an appropriate pause they must surely have some sense of timing .Then again some people have big egos and just give them a stage and you almost have to knock them out to shut them up.by the way In my parish we have the worst piano player you ever heard but no one will hurt her feelings by putting someone else in her place.She starts banging away twenty minutes before Mass starts and its like trying to say your rosary with steel drums blasting in your ears, but God Bless her she tries and I shouldn’t be so critical God Bless all

According to the GIRM, as Phemie pointed out earlier in the thread, someone should be singing during the Communion procession. It states:

1. While the priest is receiving the Sacrament, the Communion chant is begun. Its purpose is to express the communicants’ union in spirit by means of the unity of their voices, to show joy of heart, and to highlight more clearly the “communitarian” nature of the procession to receive Communion. The singing is continued for as long as the Sacrament is being administered to the faithful. If, however, there is to be a hymn after Communion, the Communion chant should be ended in a timely manner.

• The next paragraph indicates what is to happen if there is no singing:

1. If there is no singing, however, the Communion antiphon found in the Missal may be recited either by the faithful, or by some of them, or by a lector. Otherwise the priest himself says it after he has received Communion and before he distributes Communion to the faithful.

Not wishing to blow my own trumpet, but I am being led back to a point I made a day or two ago about the question of the Communion procession being too short. If the choir was singing a standard hymn of, say, 4 verses, they would not be singing for more than about 3 minutes. If the choir was to start singing, as the GIRM says, while the priest is receiving the Sacrament (or directly after he reads the Communion Antiphon), they would be well into the first verse before he gets to the congregation to distribute Holy Communion. Obviously congregation size is a consideration - but it could be the case that Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion are being over-used: excessively shortening the Communion procession rather than merely making sure that it is not unduly prolonged.

I know that the singing is meant to accompany the procession, but hymns are also a valuable form of prayer - and I think this must be respected. Sometimes it just doesn’t make sense to stop a hymn after verse one or verse two: I know I would find it odd, for example, if only one verse of Soul of My Saviour was sung - that particular hymn is a traditional Catholic Eucharistic prayer, and as such its function is fulfilled when it is sung in its entirety. In some other hymns it makes sense for the choir to skip to the last verse when it’s time to conclude. I know the O.P. referred specifically to a hymn, but if a choir was singing a motet by Palestrina, Byrd, Victoria, &c., it would be impossible to cut it short. If the choir was singing Mozart’s famous Ave Verum Corpus I don’t think anyone would expect the choir to stop it halfway through even if the priest or EMHC was standing by, yet we apparently don’t value our rich hymnody as highly.

As an aside, I also wonder about the positioning of the choir if the matter in hand so easily caught the O.P.'s attention. Perhaps the church in question is very small - I don’t know - but if the choir were in a less conspicuous location, such as in the gallery (if there is one), the priest would have sat down and spent some time in private prayer (as per the GIRM), and the choir could have received Holy Communion at a later time. As I have said before, it is perfectly fine and licit for the choir to receive Communion after Mass - and having personally experienced reception of Communion by the choir before and after singing, as well as after Mass, I prefer the latter as I feel it offers the best opportunity for private prayer, meditation and thanksgiving for the Sacrament.

 

[puzzleannie]

can we at least admit the possibility that in the instance described by OP the music people simply misjudged the length of the song or the length of the communion line, and somebody got flustered and made a split second decision to keep singing. Sounds like a problem for the priest to deal with in conjunction with the choir, not the concern of anyone else.

 

[Jea9]

I am not musically inclined myself, but my mother in law is the cantor at our parish and she doesn’t start the Communion hymn until after the procession. However, it doesn’t sound, to me, like the part in the GIRM is talking about a song.

86.** While the priest is receiving the Sacrament, the Communion chant is begun**. Its purpose is to express the communicants’ union in spirit by means of the unity of their voices, to show joy of heart, and to highlight more clearly the “communitarian” nature of the procession to receive Communion. The singing is continued for as long as the Sacrament is being administered to the faithful.** If, however, there is to be a hymn after Communion, the Communion chant should be ended in a timely manner. **

So, what is the Communion chant? It explicitly says “if there is to be a hymn after Communion…” leading one to assume that the Communion chant and hymn are not the same thing. Anyone know? I’m asking this so that if my mother-in-law should be singing during this part I want to let her know.

 

[Sarabande]

So, what is the Communion chant? It explicitly says “if there is to be a hymn after Communion…” leading one to assume that the Communion chant and hymn are not the same thing. Anyone know? I’m asking this so that if my mother-in-law should be singing during this part I want to let her know.

Interesting point and one I’d be interested in knowing as well. I know in my own parish, they will sing the communion antiphon - usually in a refrain sung by the congregation and the verses of the antiphon chanted by the cantor. If it is during a mass with our parish choir, then after the communion antiphon is completed, they will sing a motet.

But I believe most parishes don’t do what our parish does. Most will have a hymn and will not have the antiphon sung, but will start the hymn as soon as the priest receives. Although I have attended mass at a couple of churches where they didn’t start the communion hymn until after everyone received and only the organist/instrumentalist played something instrumental.

 

[Sarabande]

can we at least admit the possibility that in the instance described by OP the music people simply misjudged the length of the song or the length of the communion line, and somebody got flustered and made a split second decision to keep singing. Sounds like a problem for the priest to deal with in conjunction with the choir, not the concern of anyone else.

Oh, yes, I can totally imagine this being a possibility as well, having done misjudgements myself - like thinking that the organist was continuing onto another verse. Also, knowing instrumentalists who have misjudged the amount of music needed and not having a way to end it once they started the next verse of a hymn.

 

[Jea9]

Interesting point and one I’d be interested in knowing as well. I know in my own parish, they will sing the communion antiphon - usually in a refrain sung by the congregation and the verses of the antiphon chanted by the cantor. If it is during a mass with our parish choir, then after the communion antiphon is completed, they will sing a motet.

But I believe most parishes don’t do what our parish does. Most will have a hymn and will not have the antiphon sung, but will start the hymn as soon as the priest receives. Although I have attended mass at a couple of churches where they didn’t start the communion hymn until after everyone received and only the organist/instrumentalist played something instrumental.

Well hopefully one of the ladies on here (Benedictgal or Phemie come to mind ) that know a lot about liturgy will help us out.

My PERSONAL opinion, is that singing right after receiving Communion is distracting, and at one parish we attend (not the one my mother-in-law cantors at) we don’t participate in the Communion hymn. Of course, this also has to do with the cantor’s HORRENDOUS choice of Communion hymns.

Someone earlier in the thread who is a music director mentioned that they don’t like to receive right before the Communion hymn because they like the chance to give thanksgiving; I had to chuckle because I feel like that’s what I’m being denied when everyone is singing when I’m trying to give thanksgiving. Of course, as I mentioned earlier, I’m not musically inclined; I do NOT feel closer to God when singing, and I’m pretty sure that God does NOT think that my singing voice is “praying twice”.

 

[PamS]

Singing another verse while the priest is waiting, is disrespectul not only to the priest, but our Lord in the Eucharist. This isn’t a concert, or performance, or recital, it is worship. The priority is on Jesus, and not the songs, music, or choir.

As an EMHC, I am often sent to the choir loft to distribute the Eucharist, while the choir is singing. Once I arrive, the choir director will give a cue to the members, and they will come forward a couple at a time, then return to their places, then a few more, etc. It does not interrupt the song at all. I also distribute to our organist, while he is playing.

I can tell you one thing. If that music director pulled that in our parish, with our pastor, it wouldn’t happen again, and there would be a help wanted sign posted.

AMEN!!! I agree, he misses the point. The Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ comes before the cantor, the congregation and yes (mock horror) the Priest too.

 

[MarkThompson]

So, what is the Communion chant? It explicitly says “if there is to be a hymn after Communion…” leading one to assume that the Communion chant and hymn are not the same thing. Anyone know? I’m asking this so that if my mother-in-law should be singing during this part I want to let her know.

The communion chant (or Communio) is one of the propers of the Mass, along with the Introit, Gradual, Alleluia or Tract, and Offertory. For instance, this coming Sunday’s Communio is Benedicimus Deum, which you can see here (pdf) and listen to here (mp3). All of the propers for the Sundays and holy days in the Ordinary Form are in the Gregorian Missal, which through the generosity of Solesmes you can download for free here (24MB pdf).

 

[Sarabande]

My PERSONAL opinion, is that singing right after receiving Communion is distracting, and at one parish we attend (not the one my mother-in-law cantors at) we don’t participate in the Communion hymn. Of course, this also has to do with the cantor’s HORRENDOUS choice of Communion hymns.

Someone earlier in the thread who is a music director mentioned that they don’t like to receive right before the Communion hymn because they like the chance to give thanksgiving; I had to chuckle because I feel like that’s what I’m being denied when everyone is singing when I’m trying to give thanksgiving. Of course, as I mentioned earlier, I’m not musically inclined; I do NOT feel closer to God when singing, and I’m pretty sure that God does NOT think that my singing voice is “praying twice”.

Haha! That’s where we’re different. Since I am musically-inclined, singing or listening to sacred/religious music during mass and outside of mass actually helps to enhance my spiritual connection with God and focus on God. So singing or hearing the choir sing during communion will help me pray.

On a side note, as a cantor I have never had the opportunity to choose the hymns during mass. It was usually the music director or the instrumentalist playing who chose the music - sometimes the priest who would decide to change the hymn right before the mass. And, boy, have I had my share of pretty bad hymns to cantor. Basically, we’re told what to do either by the music director or the priest. I always think it’s funny when someone will come up and either compliment the music choices or say they don’t like them - like I actually had a say in the choices. haha! Far from the truth. The last time I had that opportunity was when I was a childrens’ music director.

 

[Jea9]

Haha! That’s where we’re different. Since I am musically-inclined, singing or listening to sacred/religious music during mass and outside of mass actually helps to enhance my spiritual connection with God and focus on God. So singing or hearing the choir sing during communion will help me pray.

On a side note, as a cantor I have never had the opportunity to choose the hymns during mass. It was usually the music director or the instrumentalist playing who chose the music - sometimes the priest who would decide to change the hymn right before the mass. And, boy, have I had my share of pretty bad hymns to cantor. Basically, we’re told what to do either by the music director or the priest. I always think it’s funny when someone will come up and either compliment the music choices or say they don’t like them - like I actually had a say in the choices. haha! Far from the truth. The last time I had that opportunity was when I was a childrens’ music director.

Ahhh, I’m in a pretty rural area. The cantor IS the music director. At both parishes I’m speaking about too.

Thanks MarkThompson, so the chant is specific to a Gregorian chant? So if you do not do a chant when is one to start the Communion hymn?

 

[MarkThompson]

Ahhh, I’m in a pretty rural area. The cantor IS the music director. At both parishes I’m speaking about too.

Thanks MarkThompson, so the chant is specific to a Gregorian chant? So if you do not do a chant when is one to start the Communion hymn?

That’s a good question. Paragraph 87 of the GIRM gives a partial answer:
87. In the dioceses of the United States of America there are four options for the Communion chant: (1) the antiphon from the Roman Missal or the Psalm from the Roman Gradual as set to music there or in another musical setting; (2) the seasonal antiphon and Psalm of the Simple Gradual; (3) a song from another collection of psalms and antiphons, approved by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) a suitable liturgical song chosen in accordance with no. 86 above. This is sung either by the choir alone or by the choir or cantor with the people.
Thus, whatever is being sung, whether or not it is the official Communio from the Graduale, is begun “[w]hile the priest is receiving the Sacrament,” as para. 86 says.

In context, however, paragraph 86 does seem to indicate that “a hymn” is not properly sung during Communion, and therefore when a musical piece is chosen pursuant to para. 87, if it is to be “a song from another collection of psalms and antiphons” or “a suitable liturgical song,” it should not be a “hymn” as such.

 

[Sarabande]

That’s a good question. Paragraph 87 of the GIRM gives a partial answer:
87. In the dioceses of the United States of America there are four options for the Communion chant: (1) the antiphon from the Roman Missal or the Psalm from the Roman Gradual as set to music there or in another musical setting; (2) the seasonal antiphon and Psalm of the Simple Gradual; (3) a song from another collection of psalms and antiphons, approved by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) a suitable liturgical song chosen in accordance with no. 86 above. This is sung either by the choir alone or by the choir or cantor with the people.
Thus, whatever is being sung, whether or not it is the official Communio from the Graduale, is begun “[w]hile the priest is receiving the Sacrament,” as para. 86 says.

In context, however, paragraph 86 does seem to indicate that “a hymn” is not properly sung during Communion, and therefore when a musical piece is chosen pursuant to para. 87, if it is to be “a song from another collection of psalms and antiphons” or “a suitable liturgical song,” it should not be a “hymn” as such.

This is interesting. I’m wondering why most parishes do not follow this. At mine, we are apparently doing it correctly since we do have the communion antiphon sung, and what is used is fairly simple - actually really simple since it is the antiphon set in responsorial form (I think it may be from the By Flowing Waters book, although I could be wrong with this) and is done by the cantor, congregation and organist. They could easily sing a communion hymn afterwards. I’m wondering if doing something like this could also be easier for choir members to receive communion as well.

 

[MarkThompson]

To the extent it might be helpful, here’s what the USCCB’s Committee on Divine Worship had to say in their document Sing to the Lord:
The Communion Chant or Song
189. “While the priest is receiving the Sacrament, the Communion chant [or song] is begun. Its purpose is to express the communicants’ union in spirit by means of the unity of their voices, to show joy of heart, and to highlight more clearly the ‘communitarian’ nature of the procession to receive Communion.”157 The singing begins immediately and continues “for as long as the Sacrament is being administered to the faithful.”158 The Communion chant or song may be sung by the people with choir or cantor, or by the choir alone. Because the Communion chant expresses the unity of those processing and receiving the Holy Sacrament, communal singing is commendable. The singing of the people should be preeminent.
190. There are several options for the Communion song or chant,159 including the proper antiphon from the Graduale Romanum, a seasonal antiphon from the Graduale Simplex,160 an antiphon and psalm from a collection approved for liturgical use, or another appropriate liturgical song.161
191. In selecting a Communion song suitable for the Eucharistic banquet in which God’s blessings are bestowed so abundantly, one should look for texts that have themes of joy, wonder, unity, gratitude, and praise. Following ancient Roman liturgical tradition, the Communion song might reflect themes of the Gospel reading of the day. It is also appropriate to select a Communion processional song that reflects the liturgical action, i.e., eating and drinking the Body and Blood of Christ.
192. As a processional piece, the Communion chant or song presents particular challenges. The faithful are encouraged to grasp ever more deeply the essentially communitarian nature of the Communion procession. In order to foster participation of the faithful with “unity of voices,” it is recommended that psalms sung in the responsorial style, or songs with easily memorized refrains, be used. The refrains will generally need to be limited in number and repeated often, especially at the outset, so that they become familiar to the faithful.
193. When the Communion procession is lengthy, more than one piece of music might be desirable. In this case, there may be a combination of pieces for congregation and pieces for choir alone. Choirs with the requisite ability may sing the proper Communion chant from the Graduale Romanum, either in Gregorian chant or in a polyphonic setting, or other suitable choral pieces. Instrumental music may also be used to foster a spirit of unity and joy. If there is a hymn or song after Communion, the Communion music should be ended “in a timely manner.”162 A period of silent reflection for the entire congregation after the reception of Communion is also appropriate.
194. During the various seasons of the year, the psalm or song during Communion should be chosen with the spirit of that season in mind. On most Sundays and other days, it would be appropriate to sing one of the psalms that have long been associated with participation in the Eucharistic banquet, such as Psalms 23, 34, and 147. There is also a substantial repertory of liturgical songs that give expression to the joy and wonder of sharing in the Lord’s Supper.
195. Care should be taken to ensure that the musicians (singers and instrumentalists), too, “can receive Communion with ease.”163 Since the Communion song begins while the priest is receiving the Sacrament, the singers and other musicians may receive Communion at or near the end of the procession.

 

[choy]

can we at least admit the possibility that in the instance described by OP the music people simply misjudged the length of the song or the length of the communion line, and somebody got flustered and made a split second decision to keep singing. Sounds like a problem for the priest to deal with in conjunction with the choir, not the concern of anyone else.

i was trying to make the same point earlier. if there is a problem with the choir’s actions, i couldn’t see how the priest cannot handle this issue between themselves, away from the public eye. if there was indeed an issue, the priest would have approached the choir leader outside of mass

 

[glenconnor]

All of us have different “buttons” as it were, in terms of what will irritate us. I sit on the far side of the Sanctuary from the Choir, so I probably wouldn’t notice anything like what the OP mentioned. Once I receive Communion, I’m usually quite involved with praying or being silent for the Lord. My issue stems from the fact that the Youth Choir plays around with their songs for almost an hour before Mass. I like to pray in the Sanctuary before Mass, and I dislike hearing them laughing and joking around in the Sanctuary. But, I know that my priest there is very much a “by-the-book” sort, and if he has nothing to say about it, then neither shall I. I just do my praying out in the Columbarium. Sometimes you just have to trust that your priest has it under control, and leave it at that.