Music & Lent

[pianistclare]

Part of the problem with quoting documents regarding music at Mass is that not all of us live in the ivory tower world of massive pipe organs, highly educated organists and 200 voice choirs and the budget to fund them.
Most of us go to the simple, neighborhood parish.
No budget.
No trained musicians.
No sound system beyond a Dixie cup and a string.
No organ.
And somewhere, a document says “instrumental music is not allowed at a funeral”.
Well snargles.
You’re going to tell me that if a good parishioner dies, and his grieving family wants quiet music, and there is no good quality vocal volunteer that can take off work to come and sing, that the priest should look this family that he is consoling in the eye, and say:
Your dad can’t have any music at all at his funeral because the book tells us we can’t.
No way. If that happens, you can have your offering envelopes back.
I don’t know any compassionate pastor that would do that.
When did we abandon common sense? uch:

@guitarists: If the guitarists are from out of the country, most of them play by ear, which means open chords. Classical guitar is something people generally learn in their college years or from an early age on purpose, not as a: “Wow, I’d like to take up guitar” kind of thing. Our Music Director at present plays classical guitar. And it is glorious. He played quietly during the ashes on for the Mass on Ash Weds. I can’t tell you how moved people were.

Sorry . Got on my soapbox there…
peace.

 

[ProVobis]

@guitarists: If the guitarists are from out of the country, most of them play by ear, which means open chords. Classical guitar is something people generally learn in their college years or from an early age on purpose, not as a: “Wow, I’d like to take up guitar” kind of thing. Our Music Director at present plays classical guitar. And it is glorious. He played quietly during the ashes on for the Mass on Ash Weds. I can’t tell you how moved people were.

Sorry . Got on my soapbox there…
peace.

Here’s one of my favorites.

youtube.com/watch?v=gswBfLzpx9E

 

[jamessmith]

Well, the IGMR/GRIM doesn’t apply for the 1962 liturgical books but it seems Lent is organ-silent in some of the EFs as well.

Obviously the GIRM doesn’t cover the EF, but a similar rule is in place.

 

[jamessmith]

Part of the problem with quoting documents regarding music at Mass is that not all of us live in the ivory tower world of massive pipe organs, highly educated organists and 200 voice choirs and the budget to fund them.
Most of us go to the simple, neighborhood parish.
No budget.
No trained musicians.
No sound system beyond a Dixie cup and a string.
No organ.
And somewhere, a document says “instrumental music is not allowed at a funeral”.
Well snargles.
You’re going to tell me that if a good parishioner dies, and his grieving family wants quiet music, and there is no good quality vocal volunteer that can take off work to come and sing, that the priest should look this family that he is consoling in the eye, and say:
Your dad can’t have any music at all at his funeral because the book tells us we can’t.
No way. If that happens, you can have your offering envelopes back.
I don’t know any compassionate pastor that would do that.
When did we abandon common sense? uch:

Of course not everyone lives in an ivory tower perfect parish. But when it comes to instrumentals, it doesn’t get much easier than not playing them. Not sure how that logic is working out…I’m a musician too, in several small parishes, so I’m not pontificating from a Cathedral choir loft here. Your logic simply isn’t making any sense. You say there’s no budget. No trained musicians to play instrumentals. Well then be obedient and don’t play them. That’s the easiest option. I hate to say it, but: duh.

“because the book tells us we can’t,” “When did we abandon common sense?” (and the funeral point):

I will refer you to one simple piece of common sense:
Luke 16:10
And I answer with another question: When did we abandon obedience?

The liturgy is God’s, not ours. He has a right to be worshiped in the way he desires, and he has said (through his church) that there is to be no instrumental music during Mass. To me, common sense would dictate that you simply obey. It’s not about you. It’s about Him.

 

[pianistclare]

Of course not everyone lives in an ivory tower perfect parish. But when it comes to instrumentals, it doesn’t get much easier than not playing them. Not sure how that logic is working out…I’m a musician too, in several small parishes, so I’m not pontificating from a Cathedral choir loft here. Your logic simply isn’t making any sense. You say there’s no budget. No trained musicians to play instrumentals. Well then be obedient and don’t play them. That’s the easiest option. I hate to say it, but: duh.

“because the book tells us we can’t,” “When did we abandon common sense?” (and the funeral point):

I will refer you to one simple piece of common sense:
Luke 16:10
And I answer with another question: When did we abandon obedience?

The liturgy is God’s, not ours. He has a right to be worshiped in the way he desires, and he has said (through his church) that there is to be no instrumental music during Mass. To me, common sense would dictate that you simply obey. It’s not about you. It’s about Him.

God is not going to slap anyone around for playing with love and quiet dignity.

If you believe that He is, you may continue to call people out for having common sense.
We’re not talking about rock music and tambourines here.
All the documents and policies in the various Dioceses have this little phrase:
“Or as directed by the Pastor or the Bishop”.
Obedience. Yeah. Got it.
Peace to you.

 

[jamessmith]

God is not going to slap anyone around for playing with love and quiet dignity.

How do you know? He might slap you around for not obeying his church. You’re not here to speak for God. In the past, people have DIED when they disobey.

In 2 Samuel ch 6, the oxen carrying the ark stumbled, and one of the attendants reached out to steady the ark, even though God instructed them to NEVER touch it. Guess what: he was stuck dead.

All the documents and policies in the various Dioceses have this little phrase:
“Or as directed by the Pastor or the Bishop”.

I’m sorry, but this is at best complete misinformation and at worst a blatant, absolute lie. If all the documents provide “out clauses” for the pastor, please cite them here.

Yes, a few selected places do. But the GIRM is not ignorable at the whim of a priest. In fact, GIRM no. 24 says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you are trying to say:

“However, the Priest will remember that he is the servant of the Sacred Liturgy and that he himself is not permitted, on his own initiative, to add, to remove, or to change anything in the celebration of Mass.”

Obedience. Yeah. Got it. Maybe not.

 

[jamessmith]

Clare, GIRM no. 24 says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you are trying to say:

“However, the Priest will remember that he is the servant of the Sacred Liturgy and that he himself is not permitted, on his own initiative, to add, to remove, or to change anything in the celebration of Mass.”

 

[felsguy]

The liturgy is God’s, not ours. He has a right to be worshiped in the way he desires, and he has said (through his church) that there is to be no instrumental music during Mass.

I respect your right to hold and express your viewpoints but this one strikes me as a bit of a stretch.

.

 

[jamessmith]

I respect your right to hold and express your viewpoints but this one strikes me as a bit of a stretch.

.

Ok, ignore me on that point. But in any case, we are called to obedience. The church says in no uncertain terms that there is to be no instrumental music during lent.

Btw, what is specifically wrong with what I said?

 

[bardegaulois]

It’s also said time and again that Gregorian chant should always have pride of place in the liturgy. As that’s always a capella, instrumental music could easily be dispensed with, at least during penitential seasons.

It seems the easiest and most obvious solution, but that leads to the question of how many parish music programs take Gregorian chant seriously.

 

[jamessmith]

It’s also said time and again that Gregorian chant should always have pride of place in the liturgy. As that’s always a capella, instrumental music could easily be dispensed with, at least during penitential seasons.

It seems the easiest and most obvious solution, but that leads to the question of how many parish music programs take Gregorian chant seriously.

It’s interesting… It’s almost as if the church has it all figured out already.

 

[felsguy]

The liturgy is God’s, not ours. He has a right to be worshiped in the way he desires, and he has said (through his church) that there is to be no instrumental music during Mass.

I respect your right to hold and express your viewpoints but this one strikes me as a bit of a stretch.

Ok, ignore me on that point. But in any case, we are called to obedience. The church says in no uncertain terms that there is to be no instrumental music during lent.

Btw, what is specifically wrong with what I said?

Just that I find it very hard to believe that God has revealed to us his express wishes when it comes to music (or many other things litugical for that matter.)

And not wishing to be rude but any further comment on my part would have to be tommorow for I must be up in five hours for Mass.

.

 

[Cat]

In our diocese, we are instructed to follow the rubrics and not play instrumental music during Lent. No preludes or postludes. No meditative music without singing.

If I am playing for the children’s choir, I (and also the guitarist who plays) will begin the Communion hymn while the children are receiving Holy Communion. I will play the hymn softly while they are in the line, and then when they return to their places, the director will signal me (and the guitarist) and the children will begin to sing as we accompany. But IMO, we are not playing instrumental music without singing–we’re merely playing a very long introduction to the hymn.

IMO, this is very nice for the organists and pianists! It gives us several weeks to not have to worry about preparing a prelude, postlude, or meditation! I’m certainly not complaining about that!

And I do think that there is a lot of value in silence, especially during Lent (and also Advent).

I also think that not having the extra music during Lent makes it so wondrous on Easter when the organist or other instrumentalist will let loose with a gorgeous prelude and postlude (and meditation music if they play it). I always try to come up with some glorious during the Easter season when I play! It helps people realize the reality of the resurrection when they hear the Mass music “resurrected” so to speak.

During any Mass year-around, not just Lent, my personal policy in playing hymns is to finish the hymn, and then stop. I never “noodle” around and play quiet meditative music in the background. To me this is a nice compromise with the people who prefer lots of silence in the Mass. They have to put up with hymns, but they get quite a bit of silence, too. And it gives me a chance to pray and meditate on the Mass, rather than just constantly playing or getting ready to play.

I want to mention that if there is a feast day during Lent, everything changes, and we have more music. Last week on the Feast Day of St. Joseph, it sounded more like an Ordinary Time Mass!

 

[ProVobis]

I want to mention that if there is a feast day during Lent, everything changes, and we have more music. Last week on the Feast Day of St. Joseph, it sounded more like an Ordinary Time Mass!

You also have Laetare Sunday coming up. That’s to prevent you from becoming too rusty.

 

[jamessmith]

What is needed is good catechesis to both pastors and musicians about what the Church expects for Mass and other liturgies. If bishops would only create diocesan guidelines based on what the Church teaches, such as how much music is allowed in Lenten Masses, or whether recorded music is indeed forbidden or permitted, it would make parish life much easier. However, except for a tiny handful of dioceses like Marquette, Michigan, no such documents exist.

To be honest, there is no need for these diocesan documents. Yes, they can be helpful, but if you look at the musical patrimony of the church, it’s already all there. Or in other words, no need to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Bklynguy]

I’ve never experienced this in Lent before so I’m not sure of the answer. Does the rule about no music during Lent unless it’s to support singing apply to Mass only or to all liturgies?

I ask because I attended a funeral this morning that was celebrated in a Liturgy of the Word. There was prelude and postlude music and music during the opening procession. There was no singing at all, unless you count Leanne Rimes “Please Remember” played between the Homily and the General Intercessions.

You don’t want to hear about the Responsorial Psalm.

Hmmm…interesting. I have to confess my ignorance and say that I have never heard of the “no music rule.” We still have the prelude, postlude, and all those in between. The only thing that is omitted is the Gloria (singing or saying).

 

[Phemie]

Hmmm…interesting. I have to confess my ignorance and say that I have never heard of the “no music rule.” We still have the prelude, postlude, and all those in between. The only thing that is omitted is the Gloria (singing or saying).

The rule has been in place for decades and has been observed in most parishes I’ve belonged to or visited. Of course there are places that also ignore the rule about no music when the priest is speaking so what can you expect. Musicam Sacram and various other documents are quite clear on this.

 

[jamessmith]

pianistclare;11827240:

All the documents and policies in the various Dioceses have this little phrase:
“Or as directed by the Pastor or the Bishop”.

I’m sorry, but this is at best complete misinformation and at worst a blatant, absolute lie. If all the documents provide “out clauses” for the pastor, please cite them here.

Yes, a few selected places do. But the GIRM is not ignorable at the whim of a priest. In fact, GIRM no. 24 says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you are trying to say:

“However, the Priest will remember that he is the servant of the Sacred Liturgy and that he himself is not permitted, on his own initiative, to add, to remove, or to change anything in the celebration of Mass.”

Obedience. Yeah. Got it. Maybe not.

I’m sorry, Clare, but I’m not going to just let something this egregious pass. Please apologize or quote your source. If “every” document has this phrase, it shouldn’t be hard to find.