Music Ministry Problem

[Cat]

cat, I totally don’t mean this to come across with an attitude - but I’m honestly not sure how you came to the conclusion that either I or pianistclare were saying chant was better for the congregation, or prettier, or more appropriate, or more holy, or that other music should be banned, etc…

since my comment obviously caused you some confusion, let me clarify: I mentioned chant only to point out that I was pleasantly surprised to find that the congregation was able to follow along and pick up on something new, which was probably quite alien sounding to them, with unreadable notation, not to mention with latin text. I fully expected it to sound absolutely awful.

the point I was trying to make was that because chant has the whole “sacred music” thing going for it, people can’t help but feel like they’re supposed to sing like they mean it, put some effort into it, pay attention. maybe one day some of our more recently written hymns will have the same feel, but look at an example like these two, which I heard recently sung and so are fresh in my mind: amazing grace and that seashore song. amazing grace sounds great, but everyone zones out with the second. and it’s not just my current parish, or those particular songs - I’ve noticed this trend elsewhere, with other similar songs (one older and much more well known/respected hymn, the other much more recent).

no one said anything about ditching hymns solely for chant, or even replacing most hymns with chant, or anything about currently sung hymns being awful, or advised the op of any of this, either… it’s pretty clear you have a kneejerk reaction to any mention of chant since you dislike it so much, but really, no need to be so defensive. (normally I’d take personal offense to this but I went to confession yesterday and am still feeling quite magnanimous.)

have some , k?

That’s fine. Thanks for clarifying.

All I was trying to say is that I don’t think chant is the answer to a congregation’s musical apathy because I think most people don’t think it’s very pretty, even if it is the tradition in the Church. That’s all.

 

[Cat]

Cat, I’m well aware of your musical abilities, and I’m sure you are of mine.

Your aversion to chant is no more or no less than many people’s aversion to Praise and Worship music. Catholics have a history with chant. It is quite beautiful, and St. Gregory the great is credited with giving the world musical notation, so it’s got a very high place in the realm of Catholic Church Music. Having said that, no, most parishes don’t want it. But some do advance it and cherish it.
Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean it’s not pretty. It’s just not pretty to you.
Peace,
Clare

I didn’t mean to try to argue about chant. The question that I was trying to answer is what you said above: “Most parishes don’t want it.”

Why is that? Why is it that with all the hundreds of years of tradition, Catholics don’t want chant, even if they have a hard time singing praise and worship, or traditional hymns? Why not just replace all those hard-to-sing songs and hymns with chant and make life easy for musicians?

My answer is that Catholics think it’s not very pretty. Prettiness is subjective, I know. But I think that if they are allowed to speak honestly, many Catholics would say, “Chant is not pretty and I don’t want to listen to it exclusively in Mass week after week.”

They might say it’s “cool” and “mysterious.” But not pretty. And in the U.S., we have a thing about “pretty” music, especially when we are singing it ourselves.

JMO, and I realize that many Catholics DO think it’s pretty. But not enough to bring about any kind of change in a musically-apathetic congregation. It’s not “the answer” for the church music ministers. There are no simple answers for music ministry problems.

Music is one of the most volatile issues in churches, Catholic or Protestants. (Almost all the music threads on CAF get closed down eventually.) It’s interesting to me that the Church doesn’t do a study of the issue and bring out some updated recommendations for parishes. But they don’t because they don’t see Mass music as an important issue. I do. I think the Church is making a mistake to leave Mass music alone. I think this issue will continue to be an irritant in the Church, and I think that many people in the U.S. actually leave parishes and Catholicism over the music in the Mass.

I think the Church should gird up their loins and deal with it. But I’m not in charge, so it’s not my say

 

[insideitall]

I think there are several reasons parishes might not want it:

1. people perceive it as difficult (due to it being in latin, or their not being able to read the music).
2. people don’t like change. that’s why we end up stuck in a rut with the same handful or two of songs - this could also contribute to the apathy, when people get tired of the same ones yet at the same time they don’t want anything new. I read a thread recently about how evangelicals view their music as being their worship (as opposed to supplemental to the service) and that’s why many of those churches have a very vibrant music ministry, with new songs and much more involvement. since the vast majority of people under the age of 50-60 have never been to a pre vaticanII mass, and the vast majority under the age of 40 haven’t heard anything but the music written in the 70’s, there’s no desire to go to what they don’t know, even though it was around for much longer. collective memory is often very short!
3. music directors or choir leaders don’t want to or don’t have the time to try and teach new stuff, esp if they have divas in their midst. and maybe they’re not even very familiar with it themselves!
4. it’s not high on the priority list when parishes are understaffed and many have bigger fish to fry (like trying to curb various abuses that creeped in after vaticanII)

but I certainly think you’re correct, that some people would leave over the music, especially if it was a huge change from new hymns to chant only, but of course that’s an extreme example. and I think one of the reasons for *that *(though it could be an entirely different thread) is that people aren’t catechized well enough to realize that for catholics, the music IS supplemental, and that chant does have such a long history. as it stands, people like to pick and choose what fits them, and this isn’t limited to cafeteria catholics. it’s why there are so many protestant groups in the first place

 

[ProVobis]

Catholics don’t want chant,

So the council fathers failed, would you say?

 

[27lw]

To the original poster:
This sounds like a big mess in the making. It sounds like you are doing God’s work in your old parish by leading the music. It sounds like the your new parish priest is trying to undermine the actual music leader by trying to encourage you to get involved. If he wants to get rid of the current music leadership, he should be more clear and communicate that to her (them), not just try to get you in the middle. I wouldn’t touch that with a 10-foot pole. Bad bad mogumbo there.
If he presses you as to why you won’t get involved, I think you can honestly say that you cannot sing (sounds like you are the cantor) without preparation, and since there are no rehearsals, you cannot sing (or be the cantor) there.

 

[27lw]

I think there are several reasons parishes might not want it:

…

but I certainly think you’re correct, that some people would leave over the music, especially if it was a huge change from new hymns to chant only, but of course that’s an extreme example. and I think one of the reasons for that (though it could be an entirely different thread) is that people aren’t catechized well enough to realize that for catholics, the music IS supplemental,** and that chant does have such a long history. as it stands, people like to pick and choose what fits them, and this isn’t limited to cafeteria catholics. it’s why there are so many protestant groups in the first place

Wait - - the music is supplemental?
I thought the texts of the Mass are supposed to be sung - - that’s why there is all that darn chant? I don’t think music is supplemental at all! You know all that jazz about “singing the Mass, not singing AT Mass”? : )

 

[pnewton]

I was in a similar situation (almost exact, really) eighteen years ago. The parish in which I was in RCIA had terrible music issues. The people were big hearted, but the parish has no trained musicians. Every Sunday, I waited for the ever-changing Psalm, by which I mean, each response changed from verse to verse by one or two notes. I let it be known I could lead the music and did nothing else. Months later, an opening came where I was asked to fill in for a few weeks, which turned into a few years. Things change. Just be patient and wait. I would note that I chose not to go to one parish that was rich in musical talent as I know that I was needed elsewhere.

If you are not comfortable being a part of the current music, let your willingness be know, and wait. I am sympathetic to the inability to practice, though. I have tried three times to get weekly practices going and three times I had to quit for lack of participation. I do not mine investing the time, but I find it a waste to set aside time and have no one show.

 

[SMHW]

While I don’t think this is the case in Cat’s parish, (but I wouldn’t know since I’ve never been there,) But I think many of the parishes constructed after about 1959 or so, do not have the acoustics for chant (of any flavor.)

Chant needs the reverberation of a stone or brick church to have that “ancient, other-worldly” feel to it. Wooden or sheet-rock walls tend to suck up the sound and as a result, chant tends to sound flat and rather boring.

That’s why some of the never churches are being constructed in the older style with stone/ brick walls and high ceilings. Of course those materials are usually far more expensive, especially in locations where they have to be reinforced to meet building codes for earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, etc.

 

[insideitall]

27lw, I’m not talking about the text of the mass. chant isn’t limited to the mass ordinary, and music is not required. I mean the processional, offertory, communion, and recessional hymns. (some parishes even add a “song of praise” after communion, which I’ve seen start *after *the altar is cleaned and the priest is already sitting.) as you said, it’s singing AT mass, and that’s specifically what I was referring to. it’s overwhelmingly how parishes treat music during mass in america. but take this in direct contrast to certain protestant groups, where those types of songs are their worship. think concert-type singing in a big auditorium, hands waving in the air, a projector screen with the lyrics, amps and stuff. for those people, the music is their worship service. there’s a huge difference.

is that any clearer? I apologize if I didn’t explain it well enough before.

 

[babochka]

Chant is not really very pretty at all. There are certain chants that are quite beautiful, but plainchant is just—monotone. My husband absolutely hates it and sees no point in praying with this method. He simply cannot believe that God listens harder to people who chant instead of just speaking their prayers.

And many people don’t sing correctly, so the very monotone chant is sung in nasal voices, off-pitch–this is…well, to be honest…really ugly.

From your description, chant sounds incredibly unappealing. Monotone chant sung in nasal voices and off-pitch? I’d probably hate it too, if that’s how I viewed chant.

Fortunately, I’ve had other experiences. I’m from a tradition in which congregational chanting is the norm in every liturgy, from beginning to end, and I find it to be quite beautiful. We have a small congregation with few trained musicians. We recently had to do without our cantor for several months. While we struggled greatly on occasion, we didn’t sound ugly at all. Really.

I’m not really familiar with Gregorian Chant and not familiar with plainchant in the Western tradition at all, but I find our plainchant to be quite beautiful.

Transcapartian plainchant:

metropolitancantorinstitute.org/recordings/DivineLiturgies/013HymnoftheIncarnationTone7.mp3

metropolitancantorinstitute.org/recordings/DivineLiturgies/024ThriceHolyHymnB.mp3

metropolitancantorinstitute.org/recordings/DivineLiturgies/030AllYouWhoHaveBeenBaptizedGalician.mp3

For the record: I am not a musician. I can carry a tune, but only if I’m singing a familiar song with a strong voice beside me. I love all kinds of music, with a strong preference toward bluegrass and southern gospel. I even like “On Eagles’ Wings”.

 

[Cat]

To the original poster:
This sounds like a big mess in the making. It sounds like you are doing God’s work in your old parish by leading the music. It sounds like the your new parish priest is trying to undermine the actual music leader by trying to encourage you to get involved. If he wants to get rid of the current music leadership, he should be more clear and communicate that to her (them), not just try to get you in the middle. I wouldn’t touch that with a 10-foot pole. Bad bad mogumbo there.
If he presses you as to why you won’t get involved, I think you can honestly say that you cannot sing (sounds like you are the cantor) without preparation, and since there are no rehearsals, you cannot sing (or be the cantor) there.

Good advice. I agree with this. Stand off and wait.

 

[Cat]

To the original poster:
This sounds like a big mess in the making. It sounds like you are doing God’s work in your old parish by leading the music. It sounds like the your new parish priest is trying to undermine the actual music leader by trying to encourage you to get involved. If he wants to get rid of the current music leadership, he should be more clear and communicate that to her (them), not just try to get you in the middle. I wouldn’t touch that with a 10-foot pole. Bad bad mogumbo there.
If he presses you as to why you won’t get involved, I think you can honestly say that you cannot sing (sounds like you are the cantor) without preparation, and since there are no rehearsals, you cannot sing (or be the cantor) there.

I agree with this good advice.

 

[twf]

I didn’t mean to try to argue about chant. The question that I was trying to answer is what you said above: “Most parishes don’t want it.”

Why is that? Why is it that with all the hundreds of years of tradition, Catholics don’t want chant, even if they have a hard time singing praise and worship, or traditional hymns? Why not just replace all those hard-to-sing songs and hymns with chant and make life easy for musicians?

My answer is that Catholics think it’s not very pretty. Prettiness is subjective, I know. But I think that if they are allowed to speak honestly, many Catholics would say, “Chant is not pretty and I don’t want to listen to it exclusively in Mass week after week.”

They might say it’s “cool” and “mysterious.” But not pretty. And in the U.S., we have a thing about “pretty” music, especially when we are singing it ourselves.

JMO, and I realize that many Catholics DO think it’s pretty. But not enough to bring about any kind of change in a musically-apathetic congregation. It’s not “the answer” for the church music ministers. There are no simple answers for music ministry problems.

Music is one of the most volatile issues in churches, Catholic or Protestants. (Almost all the music threads on CAF get closed down eventually.) It’s interesting to me that the Church doesn’t do a study of the issue and bring out some updated recommendations for parishes. But they don’t because they don’t see Mass music as an important issue. I do. I think the Church is making a mistake to leave Mass music alone. I think this issue will continue to be an irritant in the Church, and I think that many people in the U.S. actually leave parishes and Catholicism over the music in the Mass.

I think the Church should gird up their loins and deal with it. But I’m not in charge, so it’s not my say

Cat - what is your explanation for the fact that EVERY SINGLE Eastern Orthodox parish in the entire world, without exception, day after day after day, chants not just part, but the ENTIRE liturgy? No one complains and no one leaves their parishes in droves. Mind you it is a different style of chant, but I have yet to find anyone who has experienced an Eastern liturgy tell me it isn’t pretty or beautiful.
In regards to Western chant, you do realize that there have been CD recordings of monks praying in Gregorian chant that have topped secular charts in Europe? People do find it pretty. That is a fact, both inside and outside the Church. I’m not convinced that the masses in the pews feel any particular love or passion for the music in their parishes. Some do - but many, perhaps most, are indifferent to the music. I’ve rarely seen Catholics sing along to contemporary hymns, but they will chant the responses when trained to do so.

 

[SMHW]

In regards to Western chant, you do realize that there have been CD recordings of monks praying in Gregorian chant that have topped secular charts in Europe? People do find it pretty.

Yes. But I think you’ll find that more rare in American Catholics. What I find interesting is that video games seem to have discovered certain forms of chant. I’m not sure what kind of mental association that is creating with gamers.

I’ve rarely seen Catholics sing along to contemporary hymns, but they will chant the responses when trained to do so.

My parish does both. Contemporary hymns and plain chant responses to the Ordinary.

 

[Cat]

Cat - what is your explanation for the fact that EVERY SINGLE Eastern Orthodox parish in the entire world, without exception, day after day after day, chants not just part, but the ENTIRE liturgy? No one complains and no one leaves their parishes in droves. Mind you it is a different style of chant, but I have yet to find anyone who has experienced an Eastern liturgy tell me it isn’t pretty or beautiful.
In regards to Western chant, you do realize that there have been CD recordings of monks praying in Gregorian chant that have topped secular charts in Europe? People do find it pretty. That is a fact, both inside and outside the Church. I’m not convinced that the masses in the pews feel any particular love or passion for the music in their parishes. Some do - but many, perhaps most, are indifferent to the music. I’ve rarely seen Catholics sing along to contemporary hymns, but they will chant the responses when trained to do so.

I don’t know this for sure, so correct me if I am wrong.

I thought ?? that in the Eastern Orthodox Church, there is no option for the liturgy other than the traditional chanted Mass. Is that correct?

If so, then of course there are no complaints because there are no options for the Eastern Orthodox Christians other than leaving, which they don’t want to do (hopefully) because they love Jesus and their Church.

So there’s no point to complaining because it won’t change anything.