Music Problems in Catholic Parishes

  • Thread starter Thread starter TK421
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
liturgyluver said:
The GIRM is very clear on this point:
  1. Great importance should therefore be attached to the use of singing in the celebration of the Mass, with due consideration for the culture of peoples and abilities of each liturgical assembly. Although it is not always necessary (e.g., in weekday Masses) to sing all the texts that are in principle meant to be sung, every care should be taken that singing by the ministers and the people not be absent in celebrations that occur on Sundays and on Holydays of Obligation.
Click to expand...
I can think of far worse abuses of GIRM that take place in very many Masses on a very frequent basis, abuses that alter theological meaning in the Liturgy.
 
Brendan_64 said:
I can think of far worse abuses of GIRM that take place in very many Masses on a very frequent basis, abuses that alter theological meaning in the Liturgy.
Click to expand...
Two wrongs don’t make a right though. What examples are you thinking of?
 
liturgyluver said:
The cantor has a specific responsibility to enable the congregation to participate, but given the tendency of Catholics to arrive for mass just before the start, I would agree that practice before is only going to create further alienation.

I think it is important to be clear that the church expects us to participate and really make an effort - far better to sing imperfectly than to sit there refusing to even try:
Click to expand...
Enabling the congregation to participate is one thing, but that is different from trying to teach them how to sing (particularly when they haven’t volunteered for this lesson).

Singing at Mass should not be about trying to get the congregation singing to a standard set by the cantor, so why the need for foisting singing lessons on people?

If you want to get people singing at Mass then just pick songs that are well known and easy to sing - old traditional hymns etc. and reduced the amount of musical accompaniment. The end result might not be at professional choir standard, but most people in the congregation wouldn’t recognise when a hymn is sung well or badly. What does it matter if it’s sung out of key, so long as it is sung from the heart? Forced ‘singing lessons’ before Mass just put people off joining in at all.
 
Brendan_64 said:
Enabling the congregation to participate is one thing, but that is different from trying to teach them how to sing (particularly when they haven’t volunteered for this lesson).

Singing at Mass should not be about trying to get the congregation singing to a standard set by the cantor, so why the need for foisting singing lessons on people?

If you want to get people singing at Mass then just pick songs that are well known and easy to sing - old traditional hymns etc. and reduced the amount of musical accompaniment. The end result might not be at professional choir standard, but most people in the congregation wouldn’t recognise when a hymn is sung well or badly. What does it matter if it’s sung out of key, so long as it is sung from the heart? Forced ‘singing lessons’ before Mass just put people off joining in at all.
Click to expand...
I agree with everything you say above. In fact, I sometimes think (and I said earlier in this thread or on another similar one) that cantors can do more damage than good. At our parish at 2 of our masses we now sing unaccompanied without cantor and almost everyone sings. I have been to other parishes, though, where people sit stony faced through even the most beautiful hymns - even Marian ones - so I have some sympathy for those who job it is to turn this attitude around.
 
Brendan_64 said:
We’ve had that though, but the ‘lesson’ ends no more than 5 minutes before Mass begins (if that) so you haven’t much time at all for private prayer before Mass.

I guess that’s not too much over the course of a year.

But have the congregation been asked if they want this? Or is it a case of the choir leader assuming that this is what the congregation ought to have (or ought to want) whether they actually want it or not?

When it happens in my church, I find myself thinking, “Oh no, not again, give us a break”. If I was anywhere else but in church waiting for Mass to begin I’d just get up and walk away. Just stick the number of the songs up at the front of the church and I’ll turn to the page and pick it up as I go along, and if it doesn’t sound perfect, so what?
Click to expand...
Actually, it was our pastor’s suggestion.

Before it began, our parish had been asked to do surveys about ways to improve the parish (gutsy move, if you ask me, because I can only imagine the sorts of criticism they received when they solicited it, knowing a bit about what they get that’s totally unsolicited). The music has always been good, not been difficult, not a lot of cruddy stuff that people on CAF love to complain about. But there was almost zero participation in anything by laypeople during Mass. They’d assume the postures (on a basic level), but no singing, barely any responses. Lots of people arriving late and leaving early.

But get our music director up there and he says, “OK, for Advent we’re going to sing the Kyrie this way, it comes from this century, let’s practice it a few times” and suddenly it actually sounds like there are *people *in this giant, beautiful church, who are maybe, I don’t know, happy about being there!
 
  1. Great importance should therefore be attached to the use of singing in the celebration of the Mass, with due consideration for the culture of peoples and abilities of each liturgical assembly. Although it is not always necessary (e.g., in weekday Masses) to sing all the texts that are in principle meant to be sung, every care should be taken that singing by the ministers and the people not be absent in celebrations that occur on Sundays and on Holydays of Obligation.
Click to expand...
Someone correct me here but don’t the texts include heavy usage of the Introit, Offertory, and Communion antiphons, which are replaced by liturgical committee hymns in many, if not most, parishes? So if in principle these antiphons are meant to be sung, I guess I don’t understand how one can argue hymns must be sung. Just sayin…
 
ProVobis said:
Someone correct me here but don’t the texts include heavy usage of the Introit, Offertory, and Communion antiphons, which are replaced by liturgical committee hymns in many, if not most, parishes? So if in principle these antiphons are meant to be sung, I guess I don’t understand how one can argue hymns must be sung. Just sayin…
Click to expand...
Hymns are one of the permitted options for those particular parts of the liturgy, so where they appear we have a duty to sing, in the same way as the other mass parts, the ordinary of the mass, and any antiphonal responses between president and people.
 
liturgyluver said:
Hymns are one of the permitted options for those particular parts of the liturgy, so where they appear we have a duty to sing, in the same way as the other mass parts, the ordinary of the mass, and any antiphonal responses between president and people.
Click to expand...
I’m going to have to disagree with you to some extent and here’s why.

There are many hymns or verses of hymns which we personally feel inappropriate to Catholic theology or Catholic Mass. But if it’s written in the official Mass texts, I understand we have to agree with those texts, whether sung or recited. It seems liturgical committees should take this into consideration when pre-empting the Church-suggested antiphons with their own interpretation of what constitutes the spirit of the day.
 
ProVobis said:
There are many hymns or verses of hymns which we personally feel inappropriate to Catholic theology or Catholic Mass.
Click to expand...
Indeed. One example is ‘Lord of the Dance’. There is no way anyone will ever persuade me to sing up to that. How can a hymn where its author was partly inspired by the Hindu false-god shiva when he wrote it be considered in any way sacred music or suitable for singing at a Catholic Mass?
 
ProVobis said:
Or they could try the reverse (“Ok, don’t sing. See what I care.”) psychology.
Click to expand...
🙂 Sometimes it feels that way.

However, it helps to love the congregation. My husband and I are so fortunate to lead the singing a small mission church where it is easy to know and love those in the congregation. And, over the years, bit by bit, we hear a brave souls doing the best they can. The acoustic are good, the people have a sense of humor and we truck along doing the best we can. We often introduce new songs. But the congregation is more apt to sing songs they know and love.
 
Brendan_64 said:
Indeed. One example is ‘Lord of the Dance’. There is no way anyone will ever persuade me to sing up to that. How can a hymn where its author was partly inspired by the Hindu false-god shiva when he wrote it be considered in any way sacred music or suitable for singing at a Catholic Mass?
Click to expand...
It is an okay song outside of Mass but I am like you. I really don’t like it in Mass. I avoid it if I can.
 
liturgyluver said:
Hymns are one of the permitted options for those particular parts of the liturgy, so where they appear we have a duty to sing, in the same way as the other mass parts, the ordinary of the mass, and any antiphonal responses between president and people.
Click to expand...
I take issue with this part of the GIRM. I suppose that maybe I shouldn’t, because it only applies to the Ordinary Form of the Mass, but I wholly disagree with the notion that it is anyone’s “duty” to sing during the Mass. Except for maybe the Ordinaries - it is definitely ideal that people sing those if they are able - but for anything else, I absolutely reject the notion that it is somehow not sufficient worship if you are not singing. This would go against a lot of years of tradition in the Church and would imply that what people are doing at a sung Mass in the Extraordinary Form is “less ideal” or that their worship is somehow deficient; which if this was true, first of all the EF Mass as it is widely celebrated today would probably no longer be allowed, but most of all, it would seem to discount the experience of so many souls in the past, including the (probably vast) majority of our Church’s canonized saints. Shoot, and also the experience of a growing number of people today who are attracted to the EF Mass. Maybe I’m being defensive/making a molehill out of an anthill, but this is the problem I personally have with fully appreciating the OF Mass - there are people out there so set on making it a completely different experience than what the EF Mass was/is, which I do not believe for one second was the intention of the Council or the promulgation of the OF. (Disclaimer - please don’t interpret this as me saying I think the OF is invalid or whatever - these are just some things I struggle with.) All I’m saying is, one shouldn’t have to be required to go the Extraordinary Form of the Mass in order to experience something similar. I don’t subscribe to the notion that the Ordinary Form was meant to be (or is) a break with the traditions of the Old Mass, or was meant to be a totally different experience, though I know that reforms were intended.

Going back to the GIRM and its options, yes, there are options laid out. Gosh, I could go on and on and on about this, and I did in my first draft of this response…lol. I will just say, fine, no one (ok, nearly no one) disputes that hymns are allowed to replace Propers. The real question is not “is this allowed?”, but “should this be done?”. That is, why isn’t it common sense that one does whatever he can to make sure the texts proper to the day are used; why is little to no effort being given to using the texts actually designed for the day? I highly recommend the following article from ccwatershed (and this also contains a wonderful video about Sacred Music/what the Church allows):

ccwatershed.org/blog/2012/mar/15/general-instruction-roman-missal-chant/

Going back to having a “duty” to sing everything, I apologize if you did not mean to argue for that - I am very passionate about the the topic of the Church’s Sacred Music and sometimes can read a little too far into people’s statements. I do agree, as stated above, that for the Ordinaries and short responses (Amen, And with your spirit/et cum spiritu tuo, etc), one should sing if able (and that’s the closest you’ll get me to saying it’s one’s “duty” to sing), but I will always, always argue that there is so much to be said about just listening, and that it is very possible for everyone to more actively participate by listening than singing, most especially for anything other than the ordinaries.
 
bobballen_18 said:
I do agree, as stated above, that for the Ordinaries and short responses (Amen, And with your spirit/et cum spiritu tuo, etc), one should sing if able (and that’s the closest you’ll get me to saying it’s one’s “duty” to sing), but I will always, always argue that there is so much to be said about just listening, and that it is very possible for everyone to more actively participate by listening than singing, most especially for anything other than the ordinaries.
Click to expand...
One can participate by watching as well. A lot of the EF is silent.
 
Brendan_64 said:
If you want to get people singing at Mass then just pick songs that are well known and easy to sing - old traditional hymns etc. and reduced the amount of musical accompaniment. The end result might not be at professional choir standard, but most people in the congregation wouldn’t recognise when a hymn is sung well or badly. What does it matter if it’s sung out of key, so long as it is sung from the heart? Forced ‘singing lessons’ before Mass just put people off joining in at all.
Click to expand...
It can be even worse when there are no “singing lessons” and the choir launches into something nobody has ever heard before and/or can’t follow.

One of our two parishes, the one we attend most, used to have quite a lot of robust congregational singing. Then a choir was organized. The music director seems awfully fond of songs no one has ever sung but the choir itself. They are, of course, “Crystal Cathedral” sounding songs, and they change all the time. Now, the congregation joins in very few songs. But they will definitely join in the following:
-Old protestant songs they heard on the radio from childhood.
-Old Catholic standards like “Holy God We Praise Thy Name” and songs put to the music of the old Latin hymns even though they’re now in English.
-Songs with interesting and compelling music, usually things that have stood the test of a very long time, like songs written by Mozart or some of the German hymns that are translated to English or old, old traditional songs, usually Irish or Scottish in origin.

It’s amazing to observe. Why do people pick up on a Mozart song or “Ode to Joy” even if they didn’t know it before? Well, because they’re well-written (having stood the test of time) usually easy to sing, and with a musical logic to them in which the next note or notes just seem to fall into place. Lots and lots and lots of the more recent (I shouldn’t say recent, most are decades old) songs don’t have that. The melody doesn’t occur naturally to you like those time-tested ones do. They wander about.

But a choir, depending on the choir director, can certainly stamp out congregational singing by insisting on idiosyncracy. No question about it.
 
Brendan_64 said:
Indeed. One example is ‘Lord of the Dance’. There is no way anyone will ever persuade me to sing up to that. How can a hymn where its author was partly inspired by the Hindu false-god shiva when he wrote it be considered in any way sacred music or suitable for singing at a Catholic Mass?
Click to expand...
Some are only inappropriate to the culture. I absolutely refuse to sing “City of God”. “…may our tears be turned into dancing…” Who does that? Maybe they do that in Israel, but not in western European culture. It’s just alien.
 
I’ll quit after this, but I have to say this.

Years ago, when I was a pretty disinterested student of piano, I was about ready to chuck it. My music teacher, in a flash of brilliance, suggested that I learn some ragtime pieces. I just loved them. Of course, ragtime is joyous and robust and (well) kind of masculine in that musculature matters in playing it.

But also, I heard a ragtime artist say that one of the things about ragtime is that when you play one chord, your hands are almost already on the next chord. And it’s true. Yes, a ragtime player’s hands (particularly the left) seem to be flying all over the place, but actually they aren’t. The melodies also have a certain logical insistence to them. If you listen to ragtime, you mentally sort of know what comes next, even if you never heard the piece before. It’s right there.

I think when it comes to music in church, songs should be selected with those things in mind. Yes, familiarity matters, but it’s not the only thing that matters. The logic also matters. Is the next note where you sort of expect it to be? Does it “talk” to you. Is the melody pleasing, so pleasing that you really want to be part of it?

The words are secondary, but they really do need to invoke the sacred. Are they too “cute” or theologically obscure? Are they strongly worshipful or do they leave one baffled if one doesn’t know where they came from even if they’re biblical? Do they require a context that isn’t there?
 
Ridgerunner said:
The words are secondary, but they really do need to invoke the sacred. Are they too “cute” or theologically obscure? Are they strongly worshipful or do they leave one baffled if one doesn’t know where they came from even if they’re biblical? Do they require a context that isn’t there?
Click to expand...
What? The words are of primary importance. The texts to be sung are the most important thing in a piece of music. The music should be written to fit the text, as in Gregorian chant. The texts may never be altered just to fit a rhythm or a note progression.

This is why the antiphons are the prayer of the Church and the top-importance choice of 4 music options for the liturgy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top