Music that does not divide

[benedictgal]

if you are not willing to volunteer your services, practice for weeks at inconvenient times and stand in the blazing hot sun for hours to sing for the Pope I really don’t think you have anything to criticize. I think the music for all the events, including and especially the Mass in Washington, has been exceptional, delightfully varied, and presented liturgy richly for those participating and for those viewing who may be new to it, and richly appropriate for an American Church whose hallmark is diversity. The vespers was indeed lovely.

Annie, most of the time I agree with you, but I think that the unseasonably hot RGV sun has done something to you. The music was banal, insipid and a complete embarassment to the Church in America.

I would have to agree with Fr. Neuhaus astute and rather brief assertion that this was a mish-mash of music. It went nowhere, fast. This was a liturgical trainwreck of epic proportions.

The psalm response was horrid and dizzying. Psalm responses are not supposed to full-blown hymns. The cantor sings, the faithful respond. The music shouldn’t over shadow it. Some of the offertory and Communion songs sound more like something we would hear at South Texas Qunce Anos party as opposed to the Mass. In fact, Bienaventurados sounded like the Latin pop hit, El Dolor, or worse, Mariposa by Mana.

What is worse is that OCP has already jumped on the marketing drive and is promoting the fact that their music was featured for the Papal Mass. If you don’t believe me, this is the text from the email I received from them:

OCP welcomes
Pope Benedict XVI
When the pope celebrates Mass in Washington, D.C., OCP will be there. Many of the songs selected for use in these special liturgies are published or administered by OCP, including several Spanish and multilingual settings. OCP is honored to be part of this historic visit.

See which OCP songs will be sung

They are using the Papal Mass as Benedict’s seal of approval for the kind of tripe they throw at us week after week. The only true hymn in that whole stockpile is Amen by Fr. Schiavone.

At least those of you going to Yankees Stadium will hear and experience better music.

 

[Michael96]

Brotherhrolf

Is it really the case that all the masses at your church use modern style worship songs? If so I agree that is bad, but I’ve really never come across a parish that does that.

On a slightly different point we should perhaps remember there was a great deal of mass music centuries ago and much of it was probably utter rubbish (in fact I have some on CD which really does have little to commend it). People living in a couple of hundred years time judging the music of our age will probably look at just the surviving best songs and think what a golden age of music it was.

 

[Michael96]

P.S. Just wanted to add, as I’ve been singing it this evening, what a great song I think “The Servant King” by Graham Kendrick is.

 

[DiZent]

if you are not willing to volunteer your services, practice for weeks at inconvenient times and stand in the blazing hot sun for hours to sing for the Pope I really don’t think you have anything to criticize. I think the music for all the events, including and especially the Mass in Washington, has been exceptional, delightfully varied, and presented liturgy richly for those participating and for those viewing who may be new to it, and richly appropriate for an American Church whose hallmark is diversity. The vespers was indeed lovely.

Amen. I liked the music so it is really hard for me to understand the controversy.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Brotherhrolf

Is it really the case that all the masses at your church use modern style worship songs? If so I agree that is bad, but I’ve really never come across a parish that does that.

On a slightly different point we should perhaps remember there was a great deal of mass music centuries ago and much of it was probably utter rubbish (in fact I have some on CD which really does have little to commend it). People living in a couple of hundred years time judging the music of our age will probably look at just the surviving best songs and think what a golden age of music it was.

My local geographic church does. I drive 25 miles and have since 83 to attend the cathedral parish. Yep, some of those early Gothic era pieces are really hard on the ears and are every bit as dissonant as the Responsorial Psalm yesterday. But in most parishes centuries ago all you would have heard was Chant. In cathedral parishes you would have heard sacred polyphony and chant composed by some really excellent composers. I rather doubt that some of the stuff written today will survive. They are as transitory as the #1 pop hit in 1962.

Which is not to say there is not good music being written today. My choir sings Taize chants, John Rutter anthems, etc. But we don’t use Glory and Praise, Gather, or anything published by OCP. Robert LeBlanc, OSB is a Benedictine priest at an abbey 45 minutes away from us. His “Spirit of God” was used at the Mass yesterday sung by the children’s choir. Plainsong in English. We use a xeroxed copy of his original manuscript and have for years. It is entirely possible to write music which is faithful to our Catholic heritage.

 

[Michael96]

My local geographic church does. I drive 25 miles and have since 83 to attend the cathedral parish. Yep, some of those early Gothic era pieces are really hard on the ears and are every bit as dissonant as the Responsorial Psalm yesterday. But in most parishes centuries ago all you would have heard was Chant. In cathedral parishes you would have heard sacred polyphony and chant composed by some really excellent composers. I rather doubt that some of the stuff written today will survive. They are as transitory as the #1 pop hit in 1962.

Which is not to say there is not good music being written today. My choir sings Taize chants, John Rutter anthems, etc. But we don’t use Glory and Praise, Gather, or anything published by OCP. Robert LeBlanc, OSB is a Benedictine priest at an abbey 45 minutes away from us. His “Spirit of God” was used at the Mass yesterday sung by the children’s choir. Plainsong in English. We use a xeroxed copy of his original manuscript and have for years. It is entirely possible to write music which is faithful to our Catholic heritage.

I’m sorry to hear that; it’s a shame when a parish can’t cover the different bases.

Yep, I agree on John Rutter (and a lot of Taize chant); I am sure that will stand the test of time.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I’m sorry to hear that; it’s a shame when a parish can’t cover the different bases.

Yep, I agree on John Rutter (and a lot of Taize chant); I am sure that will stand the test of time.

My local geographic parish is conflicted as to their heritage. On the one hand they have an Adoration Chapel…on the other hand the music they use would be indestinguishable from either the First Baptist or the Mega Evangelical Church a few short blocks in either direction from them. Unfortunately it’s at all Masses.

But we’ve been members of the Cathedral Parish for the last 25 years. My sons were baptized, made their first Communions, and were confirmed there. And they grew up hearing Latin and can at least sing the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei in Latin. Oldest son took it upon himself to surprise me and knows how to chant the Pater Noster. And yet, what my kids got at a cathedral parish is but a smidgen of what I grew up with before Vatican II.

Not all of my generation were hippies. Not all of us embraced the guitar Masses. It would have been inconceivable for me to protest years ago. So bear with me. I have carried this particular cross for 40 years. The Holy Father’s MP has given me hope.

I passionately love HMC and am more than aware of the liturgical treasures which lie within our grasp.

 

[Karen1996]

My local geographic parish is conflicted as to their heritage. On the one hand they have an Adoration Chapel…on the other hand the music they use would be indestinguishable from either the First Baptist or the Mega Evangelical Church a few short blocks in either direction from them. Unfortunately it’s at all Masses.

Hi Brotherhrolf,
I’m afraid it gets even worse: at the 6:00 PM Mass (which I’ve only been to twice (AND WILL NEVER GO BACK TO IF I CAN HELP IT), when the youth choir/band plays, there is more than one guitar, drums, and tambourine and sometimes the processional “song” is “Shout to the Lord”.

Thankfully, at the 4 PM and 9 AM Masses, they seemed to have weeded out the wierd blusey almost country “Jerry Lee Lewis” sounding Alleluia. I could not stand that. I’m afraid it may sneak back in during Ordinary Time though. Unfortunately during this past Lent, we were subjected to “Softly and Tenderly Jesus”, and “How Great Thou Art”, more times than I care to list. There was not even once that I could tell a “O Sacred Head Surrounded”.

On a good note though our associate pastor who is only 26 and seems ultra orthodox, incorporates Latin, has a deep devotion to our Virgin Mother, and wears the cassock sometimes.

It is true as you say that we are conflicted. It just doesn’t make sense, that our pastors have allowed these types of music. Do you think the answer is that the civil parish where we are physically located has been so historically protestant and “redneck”, that it has influenced even this church?

I haven’t posted in a while; and hope you are doing well.

Karen

 

[buc_fan33]

I belive this is my first time posting in this forum, so for those of you who don’t know a thing about me, a little background because I think it’s relevant as it relates to my response. I was in the seminary for four years. During those four years, I spent three years at a college seminary, one year at a theologate, both of which I would regard as very orthodox seminaries.

Latin was regularly incorporated in the liturgies at both seminaries. Devotion to our Lady was highly encouraged. We had a required holy hour in front of the exposed Blessed Sacrament every day. The Liturgy of the Hours was prayed regularly at each seminary. In other words, I have had a solidly Catholic formation.

OK. Now that that’s out of the way, on to the question of music. it seems to me that people have different tastes. Some like traditional Baroque hymns. Some like Gregorian chant, some like Taize, some like modern praise and worship. Personally, I like all of the above and more. As a priest one day, God willing, I could see incorporating all of these forms of music into my Masses, though not at the same time obviously, because there is something to be said for pieces flowing together well.

Many traditionalists do not like praise and worship music and think that it has no place at Mass. Why? Is it doctrinally incorrect? Does it discourage prayer? Is it focused on something secular? If not, then what is wrong with it? Perhaps, it doesn’t lead you to prayer. That’s fine. But it does lead some, myself included, to prayer. Among the literally hundreds of priests and seminarians I have come to know, countless numbers of them will tell you that they first heard the call to religious life at a Steubenville youth conference or something to that effect. The Masses at these conferences incorporate praise and worship music. How dare we try to hinder young souls from coming to God on the simple point that the music they tend to enjoy doesn’t suit our tastes for what is “appropriate.”

On the flip side of that coin are the ultra modernists that don’t like any traditional hymns or any Latin chant. Again, personally, I love Latin chant. Whenever I would lead music at Mass in seminary, I would almost always use Latin Mass parts, such as the Sanctus, Mortem Tuam, and Agnus Dei. All Glory, Laud, and Honor is one of my favorite hymns. I don’t see how using these hymns in any way brings us back to some antiquated view of the Church. Far from it, in fact, they remind us that we are a part of a living Church, which is still very much alive today and is still very much connected with our past.

As far as I’m concerned, if a hymn praises the Creator and not the creature, if it aids in bringing the mind and heart deeper into worship, and, most importantly, if it is doctrinally correct, then its use should be permitted and moreover encouraged.

 

[japhy]

Some like traditional Baroque hymns. Some like Gregorian chant, some like Taize, some like modern praise and worship. As a priest one day, God willing, I could see incorporating all of these forms of music into my Masses, though not at the same time obviously, because there is something to be said for pieces flowing together well. Many traditionalists do not like praise and worship music and think that it has no place at Mass. Why? Is it doctrinally incorrect? Does it discourage prayer? Is it focused on something secular? If not, then what is wrong with it?

There are a half-dozen Magisterial documents, since 1903, that talk about just what types of music are permissible at Mass. Pre-Vatican II: Tra le sollecitudini (1903), Divini Cultus (1928), De Musica Sacra (1955), Musicae Sacrae (1958). Post-Vatican II: Musicam Sacram (1967), Chirograph on the centary of Tra le sollecitudini (2003). A background with those is helpful to understand the mind of the Church when it comes to music in the Mass (as opposed to music at Mass).

Music is part of the liturgy itself (complementary), not an addition (supplementary). “Sacred music, being a complementary part of the solemn liturgy, participates in the general scope of the liturgy, which is the glory of God and the sanctification and edification of the faithful. It contributes to the decorum and the splendor of the ecclesiastical ceremonies, and since its principal office is to clothe with suitable melody the liturgical text proposed for the understanding of the faithful, its proper aim is to add greater efficacy to the text, in order that through it the faithful may be the more easily moved to devotion and better disposed for the reception of the fruits of grace belonging to the celebration of the most holy mysteries.” (Tra le sollecitudini, n. 1)

What Pope Pius X is saying is that music, first and foremost, should serve the texts proper to the Mass themselves. There is an entrance antiphon, a responsorial psalm or gradual, an alleluia or tract, an offertory antiphon, and a communion antiphon PROPER to each Mass. (Add to this the ordinary and proper prayers of the Mass, pretty much all of which can be sung!) These texts are part of the Mass of the day, and as such they are the first choice, but most conferences of bishops allow for a whole slew of replacement texts. This is why most parishes have hymns for the entrance, offertory, and communion… they could have the antiphons themselves, but most don’t choose them, and I’m curious if they even know about them. So, as a matter of choosing texts to sing, there used to not be a choice: you didn’t sing at Mass, you sang the Mass.

As far as type of music, Pope Pius X taught – and Pope John Paul II confirmed and adopted as his own – that Gregorian chant is the supreme model of sacred music, because it met three criteria necessary for sacred music: sanctity (holiness), goodness of form (truly art), and universality. (cf. Ibid, n. 2)

The issue is then a matter of “is this type of music ‘sacred’?” In Pope Pius X’s time, there was a problem with “theatrical” music: this music is profane, “outside the temple”, and has no place in the Mass. In our time, perhaps it’s harder to determine what is profane and what isn’t…

Post-script: The other issue I see is that traditional music (chant and polyphony) got supplanted in part by “traditional” vernacular hymns, which now are being supplanted by the music of the past 40 years and the #1 hit on the Christian Adult Contemporary Music charts. There’s no reason to avoid the Mass texts… you can supplement them with hymns, but is there really a reason to avoid them altogether? There can be a hymn before the procession and then the entrance antiphon for the procession (or the other way around, I suppose); same thing for the offertory and communion.

 

[Joysong]

Probably, but I saw it as a performance. WHy did they need a first class opera star sing it. Why not a regular cantor or the choir. It’'s the same thing when they have big stars singing the National Anthem at ball games. The focus is not on the words but on the one singing it.

My friend, then you have missed something very magnificent. Placido Domingo is the one who recorded Panis Angelicus with the choir accompaniment at least 25 years ago. I played it and PRAYED it for hours on end. In fact, as an organist, I used it in my parish with the same beautiful accompaniment. As I recall, it was for Corpus Christi, and to make sure the hymn was done well, I brought in two professional cantors with trained voices to do the duet. On such solemn occasions, it would spoil the beauty to use, as you say, an ordinary cantor.

As I listened to him in the papal mass, I was awed that he sung it as beautifully, not missing a note, as he did on the original recording. Having aged considerably, one might expect some slight deterioration from the original - but no, it was perfect. He must have also prayed it many many times. I always choke up when I hear this hymn, translated in english “Bread of Angels.”

I remember once when I was on the altar serving as EMHC and did not know the choir was going to sing this, and I just flooded tears and could not even speak, “The Body of Christ” to the communicant. Maybe wiser people than you or I, knew it would touch the heart of Pope Benedict, in the same mystical manner.

Amen!

 

[buc_fan33]

Believe it or not, I actually agree with you. “All things being equal, Gregorian chant holds pride of place in the Roman liturgy.” I think that we need to have a return to Gregorian chant, but I don’t think that necessarily means that contemporary praise and worship is altogether inappropriate at Mass.

Also, with regard to the Mass texts, you are absolutely correct. Nothing irritates me more than seeing the text the Church has given us to use in Mass, be it the Gloria, the Sanctus, or, worse still, the Psalm, taken from the Scriptures themselves, changed and distorted in order to fit a particular song. I have always been taught, and I am absolutely in agreement, than you change the song to fit the text, you don’t change the text to fit the song.

 

[japhy]

Believe it or not, I actually agree with you. “All things being equal, Gregorian chant holds pride of place in the Roman liturgy.” I think that we need to have a return to Gregorian chant, but I don’t think that necessarily means that contemporary praise and worship is altogether inappropriate at Mass.

Right, but music should be subordinate to superior music (according to the Gregorian chant litmus test). Like I said, supplementing the chanted texts of the Mass with hymns (be they traditional ones in Latin or English, or more contemporary ones) is one way. But there is still some “praise and worship” that I think is objectively not appropriate at Mass because of its particular style of music (no matter how theologically accurate it is).

Also, with regard to the Mass texts, you are absolutely correct. Nothing irritates me more than seeing the text the Church has given us to use in Mass, be it the Gloria, the Sanctus, or, worse still, the Psalm, taken from the Scriptures themselves, changed and distorted in order to fit a particular song. I have always been taught, and I am absolutely in agreement, than you change the song to fit the text, you don’t change the text to fit the song.

Yes, this vexes me to no end, that composers would take the words of the Mass and modify them to fit their tune, rather than fit their tune around the words of the Mass (no matter if its the Latin or English).

Another thing that boggles me about a lot of Responsorial Psalm settings is that they make the response repetitive, and I don’t know why they do so. “Be merciful, O Lord, for we have sinned; be merciful, O Lord, for we have sinned.” (when just once would have sufficed) or “Lord, send out your Spirit and renew the face of the earth; Lord, send out your Spirit and renew the face of the earth, and renew the face of the earth.” The longer it gets, the more of a tune (or lack thereof) we need to remember…

 

[brotherhrolf]

Hi Brotherhrolf,
I’m afraid it gets even worse: at the 6:00 PM Mass (which I’ve only been to twice (AND WILL NEVER GO BACK TO IF I CAN HELP IT), when the youth choir/band plays, there is more than one guitar, drums, and tambourine and sometimes the processional “song” is “Shout to the Lord”.

Thankfully, at the 4 PM and 9 AM Masses, they seemed to have weeded out the wierd blusey almost country “Jerry Lee Lewis” sounding Alleluia. I could not stand that. I’m afraid it may sneak back in during Ordinary Time though. Unfortunately during this past Lent, we were subjected to “Softly and Tenderly Jesus”, and “How Great Thou Art”, more times than I care to list. There was not even once that I could tell a “O Sacred Head Surrounded”.

On a good note though our associate pastor who is only 26 and seems ultra orthodox, incorporates Latin, has a deep devotion to our Virgin Mother, and wears the cassock sometimes.

It is true as you say that we are conflicted. It just doesn’t make sense, that our pastors have allowed these types of music. Do you think the answer is that the civil parish where we are physically located has been so historically protestant and “redneck”, that it has influenced even this church?

I haven’t posted in a while; and hope you are doing well.

Karen

Hi, Karen! Long time no see. I think that our civil parish and local culture has a lot to do with it. I work with a lady who is a member of your parish and whose husband is a KC. (In fact, our whole office ordered KC catfish dinners for lunch a few weeks back ) She couldn’t believe that we use chant during Lent yet, at least at the 4pm Saturday Mass, I’ve seen many people who are older than me and would have been exposed to Latin 40 years ago. And would certainly have known traditional Catholic hymns like O Sacred Head (which we sing each Lent) but in 25 years now I cannot remember us ever having sung Holy, Holy, Holy (and I was floored when the choir sang it at St. Pat’s Saturday).

Hope you’re doing well too.

 

[VociMike]

Many traditionalists do not like praise and worship music and think that it has no place at Mass. Why? Is it doctrinally incorrect? Does it discourage prayer? Is it focused on something secular?

The argument against such music is the same argument that says priests shouldn’t celebrate Mass in a business suit. Contemporary pop-sounding music imitates the secular music world in style, instrumentation and presentation, if not in lyrics. This much is undeniable - it is exactly the reason so many people want to use it, and think that young people will be drawn to it. But the stronger the secular associations of the music, the weaker the sacred associations will be. If you hear a song without the lyrics, or with lyrics in a different language, and you can’t tell if that song should be on a pop radio station or on a Christian radio station, then that’s a problem as far as using that song in the liturgy.

My analogy is that of attending the theatre. Before the production begins, the house lights must go down and the stage lights must go up. This moves our focus from “here” to “there”, just as in the liturgy our focus must be moved from the secular world to the sacred world. But pop-style music keeps the house lights up full, and our focus is at best divided, with one foot in the secular world and one in the sacred world (yes, seriously mixed metaphors ). This is damaging to the liturgy and to our participation in it. We are constantly being pulled in different and conflicting directions.

 

[agapewolf]

As I listened to him in the papal mass, I was awed that he sung it as beautifully, not missing a note, as he did on the original recording.
Amen!

Unfotunately, this is the definition of a reaction to a performance.

Joysong, I agree with you on pretty much everything, around here. So please don’t take this personally. I know too, that someone should able to “nail it”.
But our awe shouldn’t be on the performer. I’m not saying that you are wrong for feeling that way. I, too, was very impressed with his performance of it. But I think that is the point.

 

[japhy]

Before the production begins, the house lights must go down and the stage lights must go up. This moves our focus from “here” to “there”, just as in the liturgy our focus must be moved from the secular world to the sacred world. But pop-style music keeps the house lights up full, and our focus is at best divided, with one foot in the secular world and one in the sacred world (yes, seriously mixed metaphors ). This is damaging to the liturgy and to our participation in it. We are constantly being pulled in different and conflicting directions.

I think your analogy works very well, VociMike, and I agree with the other half of your post too.

 

[Joysong]

No offense taken, Agapewolf - in fact, I do appreciate your kind words. You are right, I used the wrong word. Blame it on my habitual semantics, for which I will try to be more careful.

Perhaps I should have said, amazed, astounded, surprised, edified, or any other synonym. Awe usually has a connotation of worship, and I was not meaning to imply that at all.

I would hope whether it was me, the Pope, or any other listener as he sang the hymn, that it put us into prayer, which it always does for me, if you remember my embarrassment at “flooding” when I heard it on the altar. The same effect happens when I hear Ave Maria and a few other hymns, no matter how often I hear them, nor whether it is done by a professional or amateur singer. I have to admit that when done poorly, it takes something away from the beauty.

 

[buc_fan33]

The argument against such music is the same argument that says priests shouldn’t celebrate Mass in a business suit.QUOTE]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with that analogy. The rubrics are quite clear that a priest is to be vested in alb, tied at the waist with a cincture, stole, and chasuble, with an amice if the alb “does not completely cover the ordinary clothing at the neck.” If someone can show me something FROM THE CHURCH that either a) clearly prohibits a certain type of music for use at the Mass or b) clearly defines the music that SHOULD be used, then I will agree. As it is now, all that has been said has been very vague and subjective. Different people respond to different music differently. For some people, Holy God We Praise Thy Name puts them to sleep; for others it takes them to the heights of prayer. Likewise, for some people Awesome God inspires prayer, while for others, it makes them want to jump out of a window.

As further evidence of my point, I again bring up Steubenville youth conferences. I cannot imagine that Franciscan University would allow music not permitted by the Church. I was at the Easter Vigil at FUS a couple years ago, and they had a wonderful mix of what I would consider more upbeat, contemporary songs, with what I would term more traditional hymns. They alternated the Psalms with a contemporary one then a traditional one, each time using EXACTLY the words provided in the text of the Mass. (I apologize for the terms “contemporary,” “traditional,” “upbeat,” and what not. I have had no formal education in music and am far from an expert in terminology.) Furthermore, the Newman center at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln uses guitars at its Masses. For those of you that don’t know, Lincoln is regarded as one of the more “conservative” U.S. dioceses. Archbishop Charles Chaput, certainly not a liturgical liberal, allows guitars as well as praise and worship music in his Sunday evening youth Mass at the Denver cathedral.

I think this is less a debate about what is and is not permitted than it is a debate about people’s own individual preferences.

 

[VociMike]

VociMike;3585022:

The argument against such music is the same argument that says priests shouldn’t celebrate Mass in a business suit.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with that analogy. The rubrics are quite clear that a priest is to be vested in alb, tied at the waist with a cincture, stole, and chasuble, with an amice if the alb “does not completely cover the ordinary clothing at the neck.”

But why? Why not a business suit? Why not a jogging outfit? Why not a hawaiian shirt and cutoffs? What’s wrong with these outfits? Answer that and you’ll be on the path to understanding why their musical equivalents are equally out of place in the liturgy.

If someone can show me something FROM THE CHURCH that either a) clearly prohibits a certain type of music for use at the Mass or b) clearly defines the music that SHOULD be used, then I will agree. As it is now, all that has been said has been very vague and subjective.

Concrete passages from Church documents have been posted in this forum about a thousand times, and yet people keep saying that we’re just arguing our personal preferences. Almost makes a person think people aren’t interested in hearing what the documents say after all . Gregorian chant is singled out as the “supreme model” and “permanent standard” for the Roman rite. Sacred polyphony is also mentioned as being especially suitable. After that, “A composition for Church is sacred and liturgical insofar as it approaches Gregorian melody in flow, in inspiration, and in flavor, and so much less is it worthy of the temple insomuch as it is recognized as departing from that supreme model. Evidently, this does not mean copying Gregorian chant, but rather seeing to it that new compositions be pervaded by the same spirit that gave rise to and so molded that chant. Only an artist profoundly immersed in the sensus Ecclesiae may try to perceive and translate into melody the truth of the Mystery that is celebrated in the Liturgy.”

So, how many contemporary compositions are pervaded by the same spirit that gave rise to and so molded the chant? How many contemporary composers are profoundly immersed in the sensus Ecclesiae regarding liturgy and sacred music?