Music that does not divide

[DiZent]

Well that’s a real shame. Funny thing is, I’ve used “Holy God We Praise Thy Name” at the Mass in which I ministered, just me and my little old guitar!

There’s no organ at this Mass because (a) it’s the last Mass on Sunday evening, (b) the organist has a family, (c) the organist is over 80 and doesn’t want to come back for another Mass.

To give this Mass the dignity of a Sunday celebration, there is music. Me. And folks who usually attend a morning Mass, if they attend this one because of a personal schedule conflict, come back. Since ministering at this Mass, attendance has approximately doubled. Once congregant is a very elderly lady - WITH A WALKER - who takes a bus from another county. She has told that she does this because of the music I provide at this Mass.

The Lord has given me certain gifts, and I use them for Him. Since I’ve been using them for 35 years now, I must be doing something right.

I’m a very good liturgist, and spend hours planning music - praying first - which will satisfy a variety of tastes.

I am confident in what I do, and confident the Lord is pleased with me. So I really don’t care how you or any other poster insults me, because I will answer to the Lord based on what I have done, not on what anyone has said about me.

P.S. If you want to hear “Holy God We Praise Thy Name,” maybe you should come up north.

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*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani

You sound very much like our music director. She is also a music teacher at a local Catholic secondary school, and a gifted singer. We are very fortunate to have her, and some other gifted musicians over the years. She also leads our theater troupe - the St. Jane Players - and we have an annual musical (in the hall of course).

 

[GemmaRose]

PART 1:

First of all, the psalms do not even describe the ancient worship of Yahweh. These are not written with a liturgical context. If you go back further you will find that the only “instrument” mentioned is a horn to call the faithful to worship at the Sacrifice.

You need to look at these things in their liturgical context. These instruments, while suitable for worship celebrations outside of the cultic worship of Ancient Israel did not serve at the actual sacrifice. Therefore, your argument, although a good attempt, wouldn’t work here.

You are SO WRONG here, I question whether YOU have ever read the Bible!

The Psalms WERE THEN and ARE NOW the liturgical songs of Israel. Each Psalm is prefaced by a musical instruction or “hymn tone” which have unfortunately have been lost in history. (Oh, you didn’t know that? Maybe it’s because you’re not a liturgical musician or even a musician - by your own admission. I am. Ever heard the old adage: “Those who can’t do, delegate.”)

Psalms

Introduction

The Hebrew Psalter numbers 150 songs…

The superscriptions derive from pre-Christian Jewish tradition, and they contain technical terms, many of them apparently liturgical, which are no longer known to us…

Two important features of the psalms deserve special notice. First, the majority were composed originally precisely for liturgical worship. This is shown by the frequent indication of liturgical leaders interacting with the community (e.g., Psalm 118:1-4). Secondly, they follow certain distinct patterns or literary forms. Thus, the hymn is a song of praise, in which a community is urged joyfully to sing out the praise of God. Various reasons are given for this praise (often introduced by “for” or “because”): the divine work of creation and sustenance (Psalm 135:1-12; 136). Some of the hymns have received a more specific classification, based on content. The “Songs of Zion” are so called because they exalt Zion, the city in which God dwells among the people (Psalm 47:96-99). Characteristic of the songs of praise is the joyful summons to get involved in the activity; Psa 104 is an exception to this, although it remains universal in its thrust.

Another type of psalm is similar to the hymn: the thanksgiving psalm. This too is a song of praise acknowledging the Lord as the rescuer of the psalmist from a desperate situation. Very often the psalmist will give a flash-back, recounting the past distress, and the plea that was uttered (Psa 30; 116). The setting for such prayers seems to have been the offering of a todah (a “praise” sacrifice) with friends in the Temple.

There are more psalms of lament than of any other type. They may be individual (e.g., Psa 3-7; 22) or communal (e.g., Psa 44). Although they usually begin with a cry for help, they develop in various ways. The description of the distress is couched in the broad imagery typical of the Bible (one is in Sheol, the Pit, or is afflicted by enemies or wild beasts, etc.)–in such a way that one cannot p(name removed by moderator)oint the exact nature of the psalmist’s plight. However, Psa 51 (cf also Psa 130) seems to refer clearly to deliverance from sin. Several laments end on a note of certainty that the Lord has heard the prayer (cf. Psa 7, but contrast Psa 88), and the Psalter has been characterized as a movement from lament to praise. If this is somewhat of an exaggeration, it serves at least to emphasize the frequent expressions of trust which characterize the lament. In some cases it would seem as if the theme of trust has been lifted out to form a literary type all its own; cf. Psa 23, 62, 91. Among the communal laments can be counted Psa 74 and 79. They complain to the Lord about some national disaster, and try to motivate God to intervene in favor of the suffering people.

Other psalms are clearly classified on account of content, and they may be in themselves laments or psalms of thanksgiving. Among the "royal psalms, that deal directly with the currently reigning king, are Psa 20, 21, and 72. Many of the royal psalms were given a messianic interpretation by Christians. In Jewish tradition they were preserved, even after kingship had disappeared, because they were read in the light of the Davidic covenant reported in 2 Samuel 7. Certain psalms are called wisdom psalms because they seem to betray the influence of the concerns of the ages (cf. Psa 37,49), but there is no general agreement as to the number of these prayers. Somewhat related to the wisdom psalms are the “torah” psalms, in which the torah (instruction or law) of the Lord is glorified (Psa 1; 19:8-14; 119). Psa 78, 105, 106 can be considered as “historical” psalms. Although the majority of the psalms have a liturgical setting, there are certain prayers that may be termed “liturgies,” so clearly does their structure reflect a liturgical incident (e.g., Psa 15, 24).

It is obvious that not all of the psalms can be pigeon-holed into neat classifications, but even a brief sketch of these types help us to catch the structure and spirit of the psalms we read. It has been rightly said that the psalms are “a school of prayer.” They not only provide us with models to follow, but inspire us to voice our own deepest feelings and aspirations.

The above is from the online New American Bible (maybe that’s wrong also?) found on the USCCB website (no, maybe it’s the Bishops that are wrong). Parts deleted were not applicable (you can read it yourselves) and were deleted for space concerns.

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*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani

 

[GemmaRose]

PART 2:

MUSICAL INSTRUCTIONS INTRODUCING CERTAIN PSALMS:

Psalm 4:1 - For the leader; with stringed instruments. A psalm of David
Psalm 5:1 - For the leader; with wind instruments. A psalm of David
Psalm 6:1 - For the leader; with stringed instruments, “upon the eighth.” A psalm of David
Psalm 8:1 - For the leader; “upon the gittith.” A psalm of David
Psalm 9:1 - For the leader; according to Muth Labben. A psalm of David
Psalm 12:1 - For the leader; “upon the eighth.” A psalm of David
Psalm 22:1 - For the leader; according to “The deer of the dawn.” A psalm of David
Psalm 42:1 - For the leader. A maskil of the Korahites
Psalm 45:1 - For the leader; according to “Lilies.” A maskil of the Korahites. A love song
Psalm 46:1 - For the leader. A song of the Korahites. According to alamoth
Psalm 54:1 - For the leader. On stringed instruments. A maskil of David
Psalm 55:1 - For the leader. On stringed instruments. A maskil of David
Psalm 56:1 - Yonath elem rehoqim: Hebrew words probably designating the melody to which the psalm was to be sung
Psalm 57:1 - For the director. Do not destroy. A miktam of David, when he fled from Saul into a cave
Psalm 58:1 - For the director. Do not destroy. A miktam of David
Psalm 59:1 - For the director. Do not destroy. A miktam of David
Psalm 60:1 - For the leader; according to “The Lily of…” A miktam of David (for teaching)
Psalm 61:1 - For the leader; with stringed instruments. Of David
Psalm 62:1 - For the leader; al Jeduthun. A psalm of David
Psalm 67:1 - For the leader; with stringed instruments. A psalm; a song
Psalm 69:1 - For the leader; according to “Lilies.” Of David
Psalm 75:1 - For the leader. Do not destroy! A psalm of Asaph; a song
Psalm 76:1 - For the leader; a psalm with stringed instruments. A song of Asaph
Psalm 77:1 - For the leader; al Jeduthun. A psalm of Asaph
Psalm 80:1 - For the leader; according to “Lilies.” Eduth. A psalm of Asaph
Psalm 81:1 - For the leader; “upon the gittith.” Of Asaph
Psalm 84:1 - For the leader; “upon the gittith.” A psalm of the Korahites
Psalm 85:1 - For the leader. A psalm of the Korahites
Psalm 87:1 - A psalm of the Korahites. A song
Psalm 88:1 - A song; a psalm of the Korahites. For the leader; according to Mahalath. For singing; a maskil of Heman the Ezrahite
Psalm 92:1 - A psalm. A sabbath song

NOTE: The NAB footnotes, most especially on the remaining Psalms are fascinating in that they describe many of the Psalms’ uses, whether for a liturgical function or certain feast. There are far too many to go into here.

OTHER MUSICAL REFERENCES IN THE PSALMS:

SELAH
Psalm 3:3 - How many say of me, “God will not save that one.” Selah
Psalm 3:5 - Whenever I cried out to the LORD, I was answered from the holy mountain. Selah
Psalm 3:9 - Safety comes from the LORD! Your blessing for your people! Selah
FOOTNOTE: Selah: the term is generally considered a direction to the cantor or musicians but its exact meaning is not known. It occurs 71 times in 39 psalms.

(I am not going to quote the other 71 times.)

THE EIGHTH
Psalm 6:1 - For the leader; with stringed instruments, “upon the eighth.” A psalm of David
Psalm 12:1 - For the leader; “upon the eighth.” A psalm of David.
FOOTNOTE: Upon the eighth: apparently a musical notation, now lost

THE GITTITH
Psalm 8:1 - For the leader; “upon the gittith.” A psalm of David
Psalm 81:1 - For the leader; “upon the gittith.” Of Asaph
Psalm 84:1 - For the leader; “upon the gittith.” A psalm of the Korahites
FOOTNOTE: Upon the gittith: probably the title of the melody to which the psalm was to be sung or a musical instrument

MUTH LABBEN
Psalm 9:1 - For the leader; according to Muth Labben. A psalm of David
FOOTNOTE: Muth Labben: probably the melodic accompaniment of the psalm, now lost

THE DEER OF THE DAWN
Psalm 22:1 - For the leader; according to “The deer of the dawn.” A psalm of David
FOOTNOTE: The deer of the dawn: apparently the title of the melody

THE KORAHITES
Psalm 42:1 - For the leader. A maskil of the Korahites
Psalm 45:1 - For the leader; according to “Lilies.” A maskil of the Korahites. A love song
Psalm 46:1 - For the leader. A song of the Korahites. According to alamoth
Psalm 85:1 - For the leader. A psalm of the Korahites
Psalm 87:1 - A psalm of the Korahites. A song
Psalm 88:1 - A song; a psalm of the Korahites. For the leader; according to Mahalath. For singing; a maskil of Heman the Ezrahite
FOOTNOTE: The Korahites: a major guild of temple singers (2 Chron 20:19) whose name appears in the superscriptions of Psalm 42; 44-49; 84-85; 87-88.

ALAMOTH
Psalm 46:1 - For the leader. A song of the Korahites. According to alamoth
FOOTNOTE: Alamoth: the melody of the psalm, now lost.

DO NOT DESTROY
Psalm 57:1 - For the director. Do not destroy. A miktam of David, when he fled from Saul into a cave
FOOTNOTE: Do not destroy: probably the title of the melody to which the psalm was to be sung.

AL JEDUTHUN
Psalm 62:1 - For the leader; al Jeduthun. A psalm of David
FOOTNOTE: Al Jeduthun: apparently the Hebrew name for the melody.

LILIES
Psalm 45:1 - For the leader; according to “Lilies.” A maskil of the Korahites. A love song
Psalm 60:1 - For the leader; according to “The Lily of…” A miktam of David (for teaching)
Psalm 69:1 - For the leader; according to “Lilies.” Of David
FOOTNOTE: “Lilies”: apparently the name of the melody.
Psalm 80:1 - For the leader; according to “Lilies.” Eduth. A psalm of Asaph.
FOOTNOTE: Lilies . . . . Eduth: the first term is probably the title of the melody to which the psalm was to be sung; the second is unexplained.

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*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani

 

[GemmaRose]

PART 3:

TYPES OF INSTRUMENTS INCLUDED IN THE PSALMS AS PROPER FOR LITURGICAL WORSHIP:
Stringed instruments
Wind instruments
Harps
Lyres
Trumpets
Timbrel
Horn
Flute
The Gittith (?) see note in Part 2
Psalm 33:2 - Give thanks to the LORD on the harp; on the ten-stringed lyre offer praise.
Psalm 43:4 - That I may come to the altar of God, to God, my joy, my delight. Then I will praise you with the harp, O God, my God.
Psalm 47:2 - All you peoples, clap your hands; shout to God with joyful cries.
Psalm 47:6 - God mounts the throne amid shouts of joy; the LORD, amid trumpet blasts.
Psalm 57:9 - Awake, my soul; awake, lyre and harp! I will wake the dawn.
Psalm 61:1 - For the leader; with stringed instruments. Of David.
Psalm 68:26 - The singers go first, the harpists follow; in their midst girls sound the timbrels.
Psalm 71:22 - That I may praise you with the lyre for your faithfulness, my God, And sing to you with the harp, O Holy One of Israel!
Psalm 76:1 - For the leader; a psalm with stringed instruments. A song of Asaph.
Psalm 81:3-4 - 3Take up a melody, sound the timbrel, the sweet-sounding harp and lyre. 4Blow the trumpet at the new moon, at the full moon, on our solemn feast.
Psalm 92:3-4 - 3To proclaim your love in the morning, your faithfulness in the night, 4With the ten-stringed harp, with melody upon the lyre.
Psalm 98:5-6 - 5Sing praise to the LORD with the harp, with the harp and melodious song. 6With trumpets and the sound of the horn shout with joy to the King, the LORD.
Psalm 108:3 - Awake, my soul; awake, lyre and harp! I will wake the dawn.
Psalm 144:9 - O God, a new song I will sing to you; on a ten-stringed lyre I will play for you.
Psalm 147:7 - Sing to the LORD with thanksgiving; with the lyre celebrate our God
Psalm 149:3 - Let them praise his name in festive dance, make music with tambourine and lyre.
Psalm 150:3-5 - 3Give praise with blasts upon the horn, praise him with harp and lyre. 4Give praise with tambourines and dance, praise him with flutes and strings. 5Give praise with crashing cymbals, praise him with sounding cymbals.

OTHER MENTION OF MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT:
Exodus 15:20
2 Samuel 6:5
Ezra 3:10
1 Chronicles 13:8
1 Chronicles 15:16
1 Chronicles 15:28
1 Chronicles 16:5
1 Chronicles 25:1
1 Chronicles 25:6
2 Chronicles 5:12
2 Chronicles 29:25
Nehemiah 12:27
Jeremiah 31:4

AND LAST, BUT NOT LEAST:

Revelation 5:8 - …the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp…

Revelation 14:2 - I heard a sound from heaven like the sound of rushing water or a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps.

Revelation 15:2 - Then I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire. 3 On the sea of glass were standing those who had won the victory over the beast and its image and the number that signified its name. They were holding God’s harps

Psalm 150
1Hallelujah! Praise God in his holy sanctuary; give praise in the mighty dome of heaven. 2Give praise for his mighty deeds, praise him for his great majesty. 3Give praise with blasts upon the horn, praise him with harp and lyre. 4Give praise with tambourines and dance, praise him with flutes and strings. 5Give praise with crashing cymbals, praise him with sounding cymbals. 6Let everything that has breath give praise to the LORD! Hallelujah!

(If the God of Israel could be praised with 10-stringed lyres, I doubt if that same God minds my vintage 12 string Guild today.)

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*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani

 

[benedictgal]

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*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani

GemmaRose, the Catechism is a teaching document. It does not govern anything. If you are going to justify your viewpoint, shouldn’t you refer to documents that are actually germaine to the regulation of the liturgy?

Constantly referring to items in the CCC isn’t helpful because it is not a regulating document.

Furthermore, what you presented as biblical references do not cover the complete gamut. The governing document for the liturgical worship of Ancient Israel comes from Leviticus. Some of it is repeated in Numbers an Deuteronomy. What you have quoted does not refer to cultic worship of Yahweh at all. These were not done in a liturgical context.

 

[MrS]

Well that’s a real shame. Funny thing is, I’ve used “Holy God We Praise Thy Name” at the Mass in which I ministered, just me and my little old guitar!

There’s no organ at this Mass because (a) it’s the last Mass on Sunday evening, (b) the organist has a family, (c) the organist is over 80 and doesn’t want to come back for another Mass.

To give this Mass the dignity of a Sunday celebration, there is music. Me. And folks who usually attend a morning Mass, if they attend this one because of a personal schedule conflict, come back. Since ministering at this Mass, attendance has approximately doubled. Once congregant is a very elderly lady - WITH A WALKER - who takes a bus from another county. She has told that she does this because of the music I provide at this Mass.

The Lord has given me certain gifts, and I use them for Him. Since I’ve been using them for 35 years now, I must be doing something right.

I’m a very good liturgist, and spend hours planning music - praying first - which will satisfy a variety of tastes.

I am confident in what I do, and confident the Lord is pleased with me. So I really don’t care how you or any other poster insults me, because I will answer to the Lord based on what I have done, not on what anyone has said about me.

P.S. If you want to hear “Holy God We Praise Thy Name,” maybe you should come up north.

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*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani

See, patience works. Given time, and enough posts, I get to understand you better

 

[MrS]

Originally Posted by benedictgal forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Unfortunately, it has been ignored by folks who are intoxicated with the Spirit of Vatican II and, perhaps, never quite bothered to read what the documents actually say.

Aaaah. Now we get to the real issue: Vatican II. I know, I’ve heard it all. It was evil and everything afterwards evil. The Liturgy was ruined. Priests are now near apostates and JPII and B16 are anti-Christs. Yeah. Yeah.

You really are encouraged to slow down, and read the posts you respond to,

There is a chasm between VAT II , and the “spirt of” VAT II

Without a grasp of what some clergy and some laity have done, on their own, and without permission…in the “spirit of VAT II…”, you will continue to miss the crisis we are in.

Virtually all of the new “norms” we have added in the last 40 years started out as abuses… and some, in the hope of peace, were granted an indult to continue.

Strangly, none of the practices they replaced were ever abrogated.

.

 

[brotherhrolf]

youtube.com/watch?v=vlhymKyb7a0&feature=related

Funny, this doesn’t sound like “The Last Train to Clarksville”.

youtube.com/watch?v=R90m46X1DDM&feature=related

Funny, this doesn’t sound like “Sons of God”.

Funny, both of these sound suspiciously like Gregorian Chant :bigyikes: which benedictgal has more than eloquently proved from her postings that such chant should have pride of place.

 

[agapewolf]

youtube.com/watch?v=vlhymKyb7a0&feature=related

Funny, this doesn’t sound like “The Last Train to Clarksville”.

No that was an incorrect sound. It was way way too pretty. The sound of biblical music is actually much much more gutteral singing. They actually physically “felt” the words coming out of them …kind of like grunting long tones in a way. (more like what you heard the eastern patriarchs doing at JP II’s funeral) Not pretty to us at all.

And actually, this youtube has some simliar qualities to the psalm at D.C. (half steps and modality rather than a major/minor scale).

I wish people who were going to say certain music is bad could back what they say up with actual intelligent musical discussion.

 

[brotherhrolf]

No that was an incorrect sound. It was way way too pretty. The sound of biblical music is actually much much more gutteral singing. They actually physically “felt” the words coming out of them …kind of like grunting long tones in a way. (more like what you heard the eastern patriarchs doing at JP II’s funeral) Not pretty to us at all.

And actually, this youtube has some simliar qualities to the psalm at D.C. (half steps and modality rather than a major/minor scale).

I wish people who were going to say certain music is bad could back what they say up with actual intelligent musical discussion.

Take up your beef with the San Antonio Vocal Arts Ensemble. I am no musician. I can’t read music worth a darn but I can sing and I have learned a whole bunch in 25 years. This certain person who has made his opinions known never said the music was bad. Merely inappropriate. If you want an intelligent discussion perhaps I can engage you in the differences between Troyville and Coles Creek pottery in the Mississippian period.

How nasty can you get? Sheesh!

 

[agapewolf]

Take up your beef with the San Antonio Vocal Arts Ensemble. I am no musician. I can’t read music worth a darn but I can sing and I have learned a whole bunch in 25 years. This certain person who has made his opinions known never said the music was bad. Merely inappropriate. If you want an intelligent discussion perhaps I can engage you in the differences between Troyville and Coles Creek pottery in the Mississippian period.

How nasty can you get? Sheesh!

I wasn’t nasty at all. Although I quoted your link, my comments were not directed at you personally. Which is why I said “people who said it was bad” That is who I was referring to. My apologies if you were offended, but it was not intended towards you. My fault for not being more specific I guess.

I’m sooo tired of people here (not you, sir) that use incorrect terms for what they think the music should or shouldn’t be. They say it was “bad” or many other emotionally heavy words for degrading composers or music, yet don’t seem to know a lick about what they are actually talking about.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is closed. Thank you all.